Need advice for appliances, gas or electric, if you had a choice

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I have not noticed any suggestion for diesel stove and diesel hot water.
The stove idea was shared a while back and may not be as attractive as it is always on and was used as cabin heat when not cooking, but the diesel fired hot water heating, with on demand hot water to the taps seemed like a great idea. anyone have one of those?

Have a princess three burner electric and we can cook a meal off the inverter.
 
Depending on where you are, hot water can be one of the biggest consumers of electricity. Every time you run the generator with a heat loop to a water heater, your saving a lot of KW.

Ted

My point being if the OP is going big solar he likely won't be running genset
We haven't ran ours for several weeks and have a lot less solar than the OP proposes.

One of the best things we have done was to get rid of the 180 litre hot water system and replace it with a 25 litre one

Instead of taking 2+ hours to heat up every day it only takes 15 minutes
That's a couple of hours of 70+ amps @ 24v getting pushed into the batteries vs hot water production.
 
I have not noticed any suggestion for diesel stove and diesel hot water.
The stove idea was shared a while back and may not be as attractive as it is always on and was used as cabin heat when not cooking, but the diesel fired hot water heating, with on demand hot water to the taps seemed like a great idea. anyone have one of those?

Have a princess three burner electric and we can cook a meal off the inverter.

A diesel hot water heater I like. I do have three plate heat exchangers for instant hot water heat from engines, but instant with diesel sounds very nice. I saw the fogetti, which puts out 2.9gpm. Which is about perfect.

So great idea.

Dryer, I think is right, running out at the ocean is a slim chance, so not concerned so much about that. I guess last is the range/oven system. Thinking maybe keeping my induction cooktop and gaggenau oven and doing a cheap inverter to those two and keep victron for the rest of the gear.

Any thoughts on that? Or maybe a cheap inverter (EG4) for HVAC, oven, and cooktop, Victron to run the rest of the AC system. But need to see how to do that and if possible.

Breaker panel is highly configurable as it is an industrial control system box with din rails. Inclduing the breakers/
 
The current draw is why I am debating this, though it is not for a long time, it still needs it, unless I write logic into the PLC that specifies to turn AC units off while oven and/or cooktop is in place.

For the Victron gear, I do think it is good, but it's price gets heavy. I also was speaking wtih Victron, where the larger units will not give me the two legs of AC needed for 230. So they advised to stick to the 5kva units, which means I need to have 4 of have them if I do not exceed 20kva, if I need 22kva, then I need to jump to 30kva. At least according to them.

I had to make the same calculation to find out what we use on a daily basis, so wrote down all the Voltage, Amps and time in use of all equipment. That resulted in a lot of different columns such as underway always on (eg engine instruments, fridge, nav equipment etc) to underway incidental (which is 'underway always on' plus eg washing machine or water maker) to on anchor always on, on anchor incidental (always on plus TV etc).

Many times those calculations are far off for the simple reason we think equipment runs all the time, while in reality it doesn't. A well insulated fridge, which is not opened continuously only works 15 - 20 min out of each hour. In winter time that may even be less. Setting the temperature a bit higher also saves electricity.

By calculating the actual time in use I could calculate the Amps I was drawing at any given moment and that gave me the Ah required to run the boat. Based on that I made the decision what to install and how to sequence our equipment.
It became clear pretty fast that doing laundry on anchor does not make a lot of sense. And since we use the boat mostly from April - October we also don't need a lot of winter clothes, which means the amount of laundry is much less.
There are other limitations as well. I cannot run the microwave, toaster, cooking stove, water heater etc all at the same time, has to be used in sequence or only a few at a time. But you get used to that real quick and if we forget the Victron quattro will protect us, since you can program that in the system.

I could also calculate that having an airco on only downstairs, while the others in the pilot house and salon would be off, did make sense. And by setting the temp slightly higher I could reduce the load on the batteries even further. In reality, like I said before, we did use the airco only a few times this summer and absolutely never in the pilot house / salon area.

My main concern was that I did not want to run the generator on anchor a lot and definitely not while I am asleep. Last part is just for safety purposes. As an added bonus for hardly using the generator we get close to the full range of the boat on full fuel tanks. By operating on one engine we will even be able to increase that range even further (from 1560 nm to 2400 nm with a 10 % reserve). That is for no wind, no current SOG of 5 kts.

In any case I was able to calculate the required amps to get me through the night and that became the basis for everything else. Battery capacity, amount of solar panels, capacity of the alternators, the chargers, inverter etc all followed out of that number.
And if it would get to the point I need a bit more energy, then it is no problem to switch on the generator every now and then, after all it is good that it does make at least 1 hour per week, just to make sure it keeps functioning. :thumb:

In the end I was even able to add a complete espresso machine. :) We upgraded from Nespresso to DeLonghi, so it does pay off to make an accurate calculation. And that makes my wife extremely happy, since she is from the Med and is used to the absolute best coffee in the morning. :)


As for Victron. My boat is set up for 220 V / 50 Hz and I guess you have 110 V 60 Hz on board your boat ?
I see they are indeed limited to 5000 VA for the US. Only with the 48 version you would be able to get to 10.000 VA. Then again, a bunch of 5000 VA is also not too bad, since it gives you a lot of redundancy, which comes in quite handy if you plan to make long trips or visit places that are well off the beaten track.
Where you buy them does make a big difference though, it really pays to do a good search on the internet, can save sometimes 50 % on the price.

Anyway, this is just some info on how I made the planning for what we need on board. It is not ideal, I admit, we still have to be conscious on how and when to use equipment. Can imagine you just want everything to work whenever you want to use it. That would be a completely different approach.
Good luck with your refit, sounds like it is an extensive one.
 
I am doing a refit of my boat. It is a 65' steel hull and superstructure. I am doing a complete refit.



For my kitchen, I have purchased a Gaggenau 400 series oven and a Samsung 30" induction cooktop. I also need to purchase a dryer. All three of these items are quite energy intensive.



I then went to Home Depot and saw a Samsung Bespoke range. So I began to wonder if perhaps I get that, and go to a gas dryer.



My question is should I stick with electric appliances or move to gas appliances for these three and put in an instant hot water heater as well using propane.



Currently, for hot water, I have 3 200kbtu heat exchangers connected to 3 of 4 engines with tiered thermostatic valves for scald protection (2 for propulsion, 2 for generators), and a 20 gallon electric hot water heater.



For eventual power, 1 generator 33kw, can use to power the entire boat, 1 generator 5.5kw to recharge the power bank, ~8.5kw of solar panels, and ~100kwh of battery power banks.



The gas (propane) would be for a range, an instant hot water heater, and a dryer. Fuel on the boat is diesel, with the exception of the dinghy and jet ski.



There is currently no propane systems onboard, nor was there ever. Electrical wires need to be ran.



Big energy hogs is the HVAC (10 tons), water maker, and scuba compressor.



Thank you


My experience regarding gas (LPG) appliances on a boat is that USCG forbids use of open flame that is not attended by operator (think; refrigerator, clothe dryer, water heater, furnace…). Also check with your insurance provider; you will likely hear same…use of gas appliance will void your coverage.

My recommendation is a combination of electric and diesel fired appliances.
 
My experience regarding gas (LPG) appliances on a boat is that USCG forbids use of open flame that is not attended by operator (think; refrigerator, clothe dryer, water heater, furnace…). Also check with your insurance provider; you will likely hear same…use of gas appliance will void your coverage.

My recommendation is a combination of electric and diesel fired appliances.

This is not an accurate statement. While open flame is an issue, the mentioned appliances do not necessary qualify as open flame.

I am not in favor of propane for refrigeration, cloths drying, water heating or furnace use. Partially for increasing risk but mostly because propane is not very efficient and it would simply be cheaper to use a combination of diesel and electric.
 
I believe the open flame is in reference to those that have a pilot light going 24/7. Though electronic ignition has taken over with failsafe if no gas is lit, I still will not want an on demand propane anything. Limit it to a stovetop and oven that you manually control.
Heck last surveyor said the one connection from copper to flex hose on the gimble stove is not allowed, but open flame propane out of sight is? Weird stuff.
 
I have not noticed any suggestion for diesel stove and diesel hot water.
The stove idea was shared a while back and may not be as attractive as it is always on and was used as cabin heat when not cooking, but the diesel fired hot water heating, with on demand hot water to the taps seemed like a great idea. anyone have one of those?


I have a diesel stove with a coil that heats my water heater. I operate in mostly cool or cold climate so can use the stove Oct to May and some mornings in the summer. On shore power I use induction all year but may use the stove for heat. On warm days I put 2 induction plates on the stove or counter for cooking. My BBQ can be used as an oven. I have a large Webasto that can be used to heat the water heater. All my supply and return lines are insulated, so using it for the water heater doesn't effect the boat temps. When the days get warm, I head north until it's cool.
 
M enjoyed your post but would change the language a bit. Consider the windwards the southern Caribbean. Especially Trinidad and southern Grenada which most insurance companies consider far enough south to be outside the hurricane zone. Further consider the leewards the northern Caribbean and the Bahamas not part of the Caribbean as does the cartographers. Western Caribbean is those countries who have their east coast on the Caribbean Sea.
The ABCs are the ABCs. You’re right they are in the Caribbean Sea’s southern most portion (other than Trinidad). But you generally hear them referred to as the ABCs in my experience. Agree difficult boating but some sailors really want to go there. Hear folks rave about the diving. Especially Bonaire. From what I know people leave from the windwards go to the ABCs then continue on to the Panama Canal. The other choice is to run more of the Caribbean current to near Yucatán, run across the southern edge of GOMEX to either pick up the Loop current to the Floridian currents to get to US east coast or turn further to end up in the leewards if you what to return to the windwards. Have had several friends do that trip. All said it was very difficult. Basically you can’t go east against the Caribbean current so need to circumnavigate much of the edges of the Caribbean Sea to go east unless you’re in something really big. So agree with you not something I’d want to do. I’d fly there if I wanted to dive.
 
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I go with Webbles as well save maybe the stove. We have an all electric steel hull trawler with washer dryer, an almost all electric semi displacement vessel with a gas stove and oven, and a house with gas stove, electric oven, and gas on demand water heater.


I love the gas for cooking, but it IMO is unnecessary for all else. Both boats have 6gal water heaters and engine heat connections, and we never have need of more. Electric dryers are fine, but we do laundry mostly at a dock.


I appreciate that the boat with gas stove has only that gas appliance, as that is easy to manage with only a short run and various protections.


Boils down to how many gas connections you are comfortable with versus how much you don’t want to run your gen sets. In my case we are using generators for heat and air anyway so the electric is not a further burden.
 
Propane is a great way to turn your boat into a liquid asset. After 50 years on boats, hell no. The only propane I ever had on a boat was for the BBQ and that and the tank were outdoors.

This is a boat. Not a home in the suburbs where you get all the luxuries of your split level.
 
I love propane. Nothing worse than firing up the genny to make electricity when you are enjoying a nice quiet sunset in a remote anchorage. Consider adding soar and a big lithium house bank as well for essential dc needs.
 
A tea kettle and a propane burner will make "almost instant" hot water efficiently.
 
I love propane. Nothing worse than firing up the genny to make electricity when you are enjoying a nice quiet sunset in a remote anchorage. Consider adding soar and a big lithium house bank as well for essential dc needs.

You are correct. That is why I have experimented with the 2000 watt inverter.
The chef has now cooked two dinners using one top burner and the oven. Of course we were ready to switch to shore power but was not needed. It will be a while before we can test it at anchor and then use solar and genny to recharge. Like most people in anchorage I too enjoy the after 5 quiet time.
 
A tea kettle and a propane burner will make "almost instant" hot water efficiently.

Nope, not even close

We still have gas onboard and when our AGM bank was on its last legs were doing the morning coffee boil with it.
Took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than the electric jug.

Same with cooking, induction cooktop is far superior to gas
And the big air fryer/oven is much faster than gas. Does the best pork crackling as well.
And no Genset required for us.

But, still use gas oven for bread and Pizzas
 
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I would do a hybrid of gas & electric. I'd go gas for the stove and oven. I've never owned an electric stove on a boat, but I can't imagine needing to start the generator every time I wanted a meal or a cup of tea. We boil water frequently on the stove, and I don't want to start the generator to do it. Same with the oven.

For hot water, I'd go electric. When anchored you will likely have to run the generator an hour or two to charge the batteries (in the morning, before the sun is high), and you need to load it up. I'd heat my water while I'm charging the batts. A good hot water heater will keep water warm all day. If you're running, the engine will heat the water very warm and it will last a long time.

For the dryer I'd go electric. The washer and dryer a big energy users, and you usually don't wash your clothes every day. Time your clothes washing with battery charging and hot water heating. Keep things simple.
 
Stay with electric and I know this will start an argument, bur propane should never be installed on a boat. It is not safe no mater how many safety systems you install. I worked for Petrolane for 10 years. ( a major propane wholesale supplier ) , and we had emergency systems after emergency system. We never trusted it in an enclosed space similar to a boat.
 
A diesel hot water heater I like. I do have three plate heat exchangers for instant hot water heat from engines, but instant with diesel sounds very nice. I saw the fogetti, which puts out 2.9gpm. Which is about perfect.

So great idea.

Dryer, I think is right, running out at the ocean is a slim chance, so not concerned so much about that. I guess last is the range/oven system. Thinking maybe keeping my induction cooktop and gaggenau oven and doing a cheap inverter to those two and keep victron for the rest of the gear.

Any thoughts on that? Or maybe a cheap inverter (EG4) for HVAC, oven, and cooktop, Victron to run the rest of the AC system. But need to see how to do that and if possible.

Breaker panel is highly configurable as it is an industrial control system box with din rails. Inclduing the breakers/

I helped install a diesel powered hydronic system on a GB42 that used a heat exchanger large enough to provide 'instant' hot water whenever the hydronic loop was hot. If you already have heat exchangers on your engine providing hot water adding a hydronic coolant heater like a Proheat or a Webasto will allow you to have hot water from your diesel tank via regular tank style water heaters or from an 'instant' heat exchanger. Of course you can also heat your cabin(s) with diesel power if you add air handlers in the cabins. I'm currently working on a hydronic system for my own boat to heat the water heater and the cabin(s) via air handlers with zone controls.

I cook with induction on my boat and it runs fine from an inverter. I've powered it with 'cheap' 3000W inverters as well as Victron, it does fine on either. Induction is really nice, very responsive and precise temperature control, does not add moisture or heat to the room, aside from whatever you are cooking/boiling. You can wipe the glass surface clean 60 seconds after taking your pot off the cooking surface since it doesn't get that hot and it cools so quickly when you stop using it.
 
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If you were to do gas what size tank would you need and where would you fill it? None of the fuel docks I know in my area have propane at the dock. You have to lug your tank up to shore to get it filled. Seems like any tank big enough to service those needs for any stretch of time would be too big to lug conveniently if at all.
 
If you were to do gas what size tank would you need and where would you fill it? None of the fuel docks I know in my area have propane at the dock. You have to lug your tank up to shore to get it filled. Seems like any tank big enough to service those needs for any stretch of time would be too big to lug conveniently if at all.
Propane tanks you are likely to find on a boat will hold between 20-40 lbs
of fuel capacity and weigh between about 25 and 48 lbs. when full.
A bit awkward on a moving boat but manageable. Typically in pairs.
 
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Propane tanks you are likely to find on a boat will hold between 20-40 lbs
of fuel capacity and weigh between about 25 and 48 lbs. when full.
A bit awkward on a moving boat but manageable. Typically in pairs.
I have a single tank of that size on my Nordic Tug and it just lasts the season for cooking alone. Even with a pair of them I’d imagine you’d be having to refill them both pretty frequently if you were using propane for heat and hot water. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me with hundreds of gallons of diesel fuel on hand.
 
. Induction is really nice, very responsive and precise temperature control,

Can't say I agree

While I love the intense heat we can get from it, far better than our gas for wok cooking, we can't get it low enough to do rice using the absorption method.
For rice, we revert back to gas.
 
propane should never be installed on a boat. It is not safe no mater how many safety systems you install.

And electricity and water do not mix
And let's not mention petrol
But millions of people use them every day and have done for eons without issue.
 
My last boat had a propane furnace as well as propane stove/oven. If just cooking 10 gallons of propane would last six months.

I rarely used the propane furnace as I had electric heat. One very cold winter I was running both the electric heat and the propane. My 10 gallons was gone in less than 2 weeks. If you add water heating to cooking and furnace heat I suspect you will consume 10 gallons a week during thr really cold months.
 
In subtropics and the tropics propane maybe hard to find. On multiple occasions we had to research where it was available. Usually someplace also supplying propane forklifts or other mobile industrial equipment. This meant a car/cab ride and some heavy lifting/carrying if you were living on anchor. Given you want no steel containers (they rust and stain terribly) you don’t want to drop them off at a marina office for them to refill if you want to hold on to your aluminum or synthetic ones. So it’s a chore you do yourself. As liveaboards using propane only for cooking paid attention to the pressure in our two tanks. Several times filled a half empty tank just to have two completely full ones if we were going off grid for awhile or were insecure when would be the next time we could get a fill.
If I was redoing a liveaboard I’d have one tank of propane to do the Q and a single outside burner. That would be for redundancy if my electric failed. Rest would be induction cooktop and convection oven supplemented by a slow cooker, pressure cooker and a toaster/microwave. System powered by house bank or genset as situation changed. Found the pressure cooker was the most efficient way to cook. Would have a hot water spigot at kitchen sink for tea, coffee, instant soup while on watch at night.
 
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Thank you again for everyone's info. I will probably stay with my induction cooktop and oven.

Outdoors, for sure a propane cooktop and for bbq.

The dryer definitely remains electric, not trying to deal w the challenge of venting it. It is an inverter heat pump one. 3 hrs to dry. If/when I try it, and if I do not like it, I will be back asking for more input.

For the water heater scenario, still trying to find one I like that is diesel. So figuring out that whole scenario. I will begin a few more posts with some of the designs I have come up with.

I think I have also figured out how to attach a picture.
 

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Here is also the breaker break-out so far.
 

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Propane is dangerous, not just on boats. These people thought they were safe.
 

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