Window Maintenance Leak Prevention

[EdSpiffy]

We are about to purchase a 20 yr old 36ft trawler in a common sundeck configuration. As far as I can tell, it does not have leaky windows, but during our boat search we saw many (10) boats with ruined wood from old leaky windows. So it is clearly a common issue across the spectrum of boats and something I actively avoided. If I saw signs of water leaks, I turned away from that boat.



Is the conventional wisdom to just wait for a leak then fix and repair interior?


Since we know it is 20yrs old, do we preemptively get after the seals?


E.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Ed,
Consider acquiring and learning how to use a moisture meter. Then you can characterize your boat without waiting for a leak to show.

But be careful, it can be a really depressing tool to use!

If you plan to have a survey performed on your prospective purchase, you can learn a lot about this from your surveyor as he probes around the boat. Good luck on finding a dry boat!

I am proactive on keeping after my old teak window frames, sealing, coating and storm covers in the winter has helped a lot.

 

[EdSpiffy]

By the time we close, we will know what kind of sandals the guys wore while laying the original glass. That is to say, we are being very thorough. As a buyer in this market we don't really have much room around selection or price, but we can be selective about condition... A whole other topic.


Sounds like you prefer the wait and watch method.


E.

 

[AlanT]

We are about to purchase a 20 yr old 36ft trawler in a common sundeck configuration. As far as I can tell, it does not have leaky windows, but during our boat search we saw many (10) boats with ruined wood from old leaky windows. So it is clearly a common issue across the spectrum of boats and something I actively avoided. If I saw signs of water leaks, I turned away from that boat.
Is the conventional wisdom to just wait for a leak then fix and repair interior?
Since we know it is 20yrs old, do we preemptively get after the seals?


E.

To answer your question, this can be dealt with. If I were in your situation and this was the only obstacle to purchase I would not be put off if seller would credit me the cost of replacing windows.

Otherwise if the windows are not leaking IMO you are best to leave them alone until they do.

I have recently dealt with this issue on a new-to-me 26 year old boat. In my case the original windows were installed without UV protected dark glass around the edges (2" in from the edges). This allowed sunlight, over 26 years, to degrade the rubber seals used during construction and causing leaks and superficial damage to interior woodwork which I am currently repairing. A previous owner had clearly tried to solve those leaks by applying sealant (caulk) on the inside of the windows. This seems to have actually worked on the side windows and I have yet to address those, which are not leaking yet. The forward windows however needed to be addressed.

There was no possibility to solve the problem with the windows in-situ to answer your question. Removing the windows, cleaning the channel the window sits in, then replacing with new windows was my solution. The new windows have UV dark glass all around the edges (like you would see on a modern car windshield) and are sealed on the inside with a sealant tape and on the outside with caulk which makes them look seamless. The windows are much more attractive than the originals and emulate the frameless look seen on most boats built since 1998 or thereabouts (See picture)

The job was expensive in my case largely due to the size of the windows and the need to build scaffolding to access. On a 36' boat the smaller windows and easier access would actually make this a DIY job with the appropriate skills and help getting the panes out and replaced. Things to bear in mind:

1. Whether you choose to do this or have a pro do it, it is quite likely that one or more windows will break on removal, and depending on the window it is possible you would want to replace anyway (See comments on UV damage above). If you plan to re-use the windows and one breaks you will have to deal with a large hole in the boat while replacement glass is cut. For these reasons I replaced all with new.
2. If the wood is stained it can be repaired quite satisfactorily. If it is rotten it has to be dug out, stabilized and filled with filler, then painted to blend in. I am in the process of this now and plan to post before and after pictures when the weather warms enough to complete the task.
~A

 

[GoneFarrell]

Wait and watch? Not really.

When I got the boat there were leaky windows, but now, no leaks AFAIK. Keeping after the window glass to wood joints seasonally is just part of living with 13 teak framed windows on my 30 y.o. boat.

 

[EdSpiffy]

Those are some good looking windows. Yikes! What a job!


Sounds like there is not really any preventative measures. Just watch and expect to replace if needed.


E.

 

[AlanT]

Wait and watch? Not really.

When I got the boat there were leaky windows, but now, no leaks AFAIK. Keeping after the window glass to wood joints seasonally is just part of living with 13 teak framed windows on my 30 y.o. boat.

Fair comment. I was not considering wood exterior frames.
~A

 

[GoneFarrell]

Ed, even if the windows are tight, condensation can lead to staining/damage on the interior woodwork. Part of my solution for that was storm covers outside and dehumidifier in the cabin.

It took me a while to figure all this out and keep things dry inside. Keeps me off the streets!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ES. ONE thing you can do is make sure any drain holes/channels are kept clean. IF water backs up and those drains are blocked, the only place for the water to drain might be inside.

 

[Choices]

When we were boat shopping I quickly realized I did not want any boat with aluminum window frames. This crossed many off our list. Many top end builders were being inundated with claims, and no way to fix it. Diamond Seaglaze just said sand and paint regularly.

Once that was done we were left with wood frames or glue install.

Refinishing wood windows with new materials and methods is not material expensive but very labor expensive.

For our boat I figured around twenty man hours per window.

Once they start failing the damage progresses quickly.

We are experimenting on building glass reinforced frames to retrofit aluminum frames and wood frames.

If we bring this product to market, you would reuse your glass and just glue in and paint the frame. An easy weekend project.

You can see my process at our blog, grandbankschoices. Just dig around and find it.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I went over my entire boat with Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. It really does work, although application is tedious. It appears to be something like watered down Elmer's Glue, but for the price, and knowing that it works, I didn't bother coming up with my own homebrew.

The website shows a little about what it can do. In my application, I didn't wait for leaks to occur (although they had in the past). I was using it as a preventative measure. The product has the viscosity of milk, which makes it difficult (impossible really) to apply effectively from the bottle provided. I used little needle squeeze bottles like these. Run a bit along side the glass or the window runner slot. If it doesn't fill up the crack, return in a few minutes and add more. It took about 4 applications before my forward hatch sealed. It just kept disappearing down the tiny crack and, as I found out later, slowly dripping inside. I just kept coming back for an additional squirt. I can still see an older water stain, but it hasn't changed now in several years.

Be careful with drips. If you wipe off with a dry cloth it just spreads the stuff around. Once dry, it tends to leave a shiny spot and is hard to remove. Use a damp rag on spills, maybe twice, followed by a clean rag. The product dries to a translucent plastic state, but tends to kind of reconstitute when wet again. Not to the point of letting water through, but gooey and more flexible. Okay by me as it is down in a crack doing it's thing.

It can't fill large cracks. For that you will probably need caulking. But when the caulking fails (and it will, as the caulking applied by my PO had), failure will begin with a small crack that Captain Tolley's can fill.

I haven't heard of anybody using it this way, but I did the teak on my deck. Ran a bead down the caulking and did the screw plugs. A couple of places took a bit more with bubbles coming up. Took an hour and 6 ounces. If it keeps the deck from failing during my ownership, time and money well spent. Same with the tedious application around windows; better than replacing.

I had one front window that leaked at the top of the glass when spray and wind were driven against it. Careful application of Captain Trolley's wicked the product up and sealed the window. Can you tell I'm a fan?

 

[EdSpiffy]

When we were boat shopping I quickly realized I did not want any boat with aluminum window frames. This crossed many off our list. Many top end builders were being inundated with claims, and no way to fix it. Diamond Seaglaze just said sand and paint regularly.

Most of these boats with window leaks are 20+ years old. That's not a bad stretch for something out in the weather 24/7. Aluminum seems like the right, or at least OK, material for the job. Sorry to the gorgeous wood boat people, but I wouldn't want it.



If there is fault to be assigned, I'd say it is the owners that let a leak go long enough to ruin interiors or sink a boat.


The advice about cleaning window drains is exactly what I needed. The other comment about UV damage is a good one as well; the covers make a lot more sense with that in mind.


E.

 

[Tator]

I don't think all aluminum frames are created equal in regards to sweating and leakage. We have all aluminum frames on our boat and no problems with leakage or sweating in 16 years even under the constant conditions of the temperate rainforest of SE Alaska-lots of rain and humidity. We do make an effort to keep humidity down on by using an exhaust fan when cooking and showering. Most of our windows are double paned but, even the ones that aren't, never sweat. Granted we are only living aboard May-Sept and the Winter conditions might be the difference maker.

Tator

 

[AlanT]

Those are some good looking windows. Yikes! What a job!


Sounds like there is not really any preventative measures. Just watch and expect to replace if needed.


E.

Yikes indeed! For your further entertainment here are a couple pix of the process,

Pane shared is pain halved!
~A

 

[Bmarler]

I don't think all aluminum frames are created equal in regards to sweating and leakage. We have all aluminum frames on our boat and no problems with leakage or sweating in 16 years even under the constant conditions of the temperate rainforest of SE Alaska-lots of rain and humidity. We do make an effort to keep humidity down on by using an exhaust fan when cooking and showering. Most of our windows are double paned but, even the ones that aren't, never sweat. Granted we are only living aboard May-Sept and the Winter conditions might be the difference maker.

Tator

What do you have for exhaust for the galley? I’ve been wrestling with this and haven’t come up with a good solution yet. I may make a custom hood, but I’d like to find something I can just purchase and install instead.

 

[Tator]

It's a small apartment size Broan hood. We vent it under the pilothouse settee to an outside wall on the PH and have it covered with a standard plastic louvered vent.

Tator

 

[jleonard]

Keep the drains clear. That's good PM.
And make sure the drain holes in the tracks line up with the holes in the trim. Some of ours did not initially.
We also made covers for all the windows and put them on when we were not on the boat or if we had storms.

 

[C lectric]

I too have a boat with wood windows. The side glass is in sliding tracks.
THe fronts and rears are in solid frames.

I too have had leaks.

The first thing I did was enlarge the track drain holes. The originals were quite small and plugged far too easily. It's not just the overflow into the cabin but the pockets of water which can then saturate the wood and seep slowly into any small voids or openings.

Over the years I have pulled all but the two at the cabin's aft bulkhead. Those two are protected from rain by the overhead deck canvas.

One of those two after close examination I determined I did not want to take the frame apart. It would have destroyed the frame. THe leak was at the bottom only from the pocket effect where water would sit for a long period after the rain stopped and the caulk was questionable. The window frame contacted the glass at 90o. THe trouble was from that joint since the frame itself was on an angle of about 10o leading rain to the glass.
I made a filler strip that changed the angle presented to the rain to about 15o away from the glass.
Once caulked and revarnished no more leaks . Over 10 yrs. now.

The three front cabin windows have had strip downs. I made new stop strips that were larger and also had the angle changed enough that water no longer collects and stays. Each strip had the inside corner planed to about 1/8" across the 90o corner to hold caulk. Even if the thinned seal where the strips contact the frame failed eventually , that pocket formed a reservoir which did not set hard. I had pulled one of these windows apart some years previously and after about 10 yr the caulk that was in that pocket formed by my planed corner was still gooey. THe last time was ~ 20 yrs.

The sliding side windows were all redone. On each side window there are three openings , each with two sliding panes. two mullions between the three openings and then end frames or sashes. The two mullions were removed, some repairs done, and then glued into place. The Port side was done about 20 yrs ago.

The second, Stbd side was forced by getting hit by a sailboat bowsprit which destroyed those glass panes and blew the mullions out of place.

I cut some new tracks out of Black UHMW polyethylene. It was easily cut on my tablesaw and with hand tools. THe black protects it from the sun.
I used silicon bronze screws to secure it in place and gooped each screw hole with caulk.

I went back to the Port side and redid all the tracks with my UHMW.

I quit using the SS tracks with the cute fuzzy stuff as the fuzzy stuff did not last and and helped to plug the drain holes as it broke down. THe UHMW is a better bet IMO.



THe first few windows I sealed the wood itself with Zinc Pentachlorophenol. I could no longer get the copper stuff. It is a serious preservative regardless.
Seems to be a good sealer also. THe last few windows I used the water thin epoxy with an overcoat of thicker epoxy.

All windows I keep the varnish up. Does not have to be varnish , my choice.

My gist from all this is do the repairs, be prepared for some work but when done the repairs should be long lasting.

 

[Comodave]

On a previous boat we had teak window frames. The way they were designed I could never get them to stop leaking. So I made outside covers out of white Stamoid. It is waterproof and if you don’t get the back coated cersion transmit light very well. Never had any more issues with leaks. Also gave us a lot of privacy in the marina. I used keder track on the top of the covers so water wouldn’t get behind the covers.

 

[Barking Sands]

On a previous boat we had teak window frames. The way they were designed I could never get them to stop leaking. So I made outside covers out of white Stamoid. It is waterproof and if you don’t get the back coated cersion transmit light very well. Never had any more issues with leaks. Also gave us a lot of privacy in the marina. I used keder track on the top of the covers so water wouldn’t get behind the covers.

This is my current plan. Just make oversized waterproof covers. On many of the old leaky teaky windows, even when perfect, water can be pushed inside when the wind and rain is just right. I figure first layer of defense would be to just cover them. Im trying 303 coated Sunbrella.

 

[Comodave]

Sunbrella isn’t waterproof like Stamoid. Also Sunbrella will not let in light like Stamoid. If there ever was a purpose for Stamoid this is it. I love Sunbrella but this application isn’t where I would use it.

 

[Barking Sands]

Sunbrella isn’t waterproof like Stamoid. Also Sunbrella will not let in light like Stamoid. If there ever was a purpose for Stamoid this is it. I love Sunbrella but this application isn’t where I would use it.

Well..I already have a ton of matching Sunbrella and it is waterproof with 303 coating. If I end up not liking them...ill make some more.

 

[Choices]

I also agree with window covers.

We have white Sunbrella covers and and a set of phifortex. Both stop rain and even some water hose spray.

Each boat wash the windows are washed and drains checked. When I rebuilt the windows I enlarged the rail drains 3x. Could have gone 4x.

No problems.

Covers also help cool/heating condensation issues. Very happy. All boats should have them. Saves interior teak, etc.

 

[fcsorensen]

I had an old (1981) Ocean Alexander which had lots of big square windows some of which had leaked. Captain Tolley’s fixed them all.
I then went to a maintenance routine of treating them all every six months or so and never had another problem.

 

[HuffinandPuffin]

Europa?

Seems to me this would be a major advantage to a Europa arrangement. Most or all the windows are protected by an overhang above.

 

[Davil1]

preventive maintenance

Just a related comment
once a leak is created, will stain the inside more likely teak? or some other wood paneling, creating a problem on resale as those stains are almost impossible to clean out.
Prevention seems the way to go?

 

[C lectric]

I should have added that we too have Sunbrella covers for all but the two very back windows which are protected by the back deck cover.

 

[Yachtman]

On a previous boat we had teak window frames. The way they were designed I could never get them to stop leaking. So I made outside covers out of white Stamoid. It is waterproof and if you don’t get the back coated cersion transmit light very well. Never had any more issues with leaks. Also gave us a lot of privacy in the marina. I used keder track on the top of the covers so water wouldn’t get behind the covers.

Comodave,
Any chance you have some photos of your set up? Sounds like a great idea.

 

[Comodave]

Sorry that was 12 boats and 20+ years ago, no photos from then left. I took an aluminum keder, or awning rail, and put it across the top side of the windows. Then took white Stamoid and sewed a keder awning rope to the top. It slides into the keder rail and makes a pretty good waterproof seal, maybe not completely waterproof but almost. Then snap the sides and bottom to the cabin side. You can find keder stuff at sailrite.com and other places. RV supply shops have the aluminum keder rails.

 

[Choices]

If you put the snaps on the outside curve of the frame edge, the canvas will lay tight to the frame.