Entry cost

[ranger58sb]

Common questions: "How much will it cost to buy a boat?" How much will it cost to maintain and operate a boat?" "Will my extremely low budget of X to acquire, and even lower X minus Y to refit, be enough for a 75' yacht?"

Commons answers: "Everything you have." "More than you can anticipate." "An arm, a leg, a small boy, a mule, and a good hunting dog."

But those answers tend to be too subjective, so… I thought I'd offer one (single) anecdotal example. Not at all representative of boats in general, just some insight into what's happened (so far) in our case. Perhaps as a sort of adjunct to Don's spreadsheet of their annual operating expenses, which includes lifestyle categories we don't bother to track.

The boat is a U.S.built "Chevy" from a respected (enough) Chevy-maker" which started as a nominal 55-footer, grew a bustle (hydraulic swim platform) and became a nominal 58-footer… but was more like 60-61' at that point… and is actually about 62' OAL counting the current anchor. 2006 model year, "only" 15-years-old when we bought. Three staterooms, two heads, galley, saloon, etc… plus large flying bridge (accessible via stairway). Propulsion is from electronically-controlled common rail diesels from Germany, 900-hp each. The 21.5-kW genset from a U.S. maker has about 5500 hours now.

Acquisition-related costs (approx. $20K):
- actual purchase cost (includes seller's broker fees)
- air, hotel, and rental car
- marine and mechanical surveys, haul-out
- hired delivery from purchase point to staging (service, then pick-up) point
- 3 months marina costs (Ft. Myers)
- self-delivery from pick-up point (Ft. Myers) to home slip (Annapolis) -- fuel and dockage (about $12K, at high speed)

Engine & genset rehab (approx. $54K, most negotiated out of purchase price)
- bringing engines back into manufacture's service schedule
- repairing additional defects found in mechanical survey (new risers, electronics control board repair, electronics display repair, etc.)
- 1000-hour service on genset

1st Spring Launch (approx. $13K):
- haul-out, powerwash, scrape, paint, anodes, etc. (catch-up and remedial work)
- initial repairs (eliminate rudder leaks, repack seals, remove/R&R/replace props, replace broken hinge pin on hydraulic lift)

General repair projects since acquisition (approx. $90K)
- includes replacement for systems broken or missing at acquisition
(a gazillion light bulbs (incl. 4 of 5 nav lights), VHF antenna, CO detectors, portable fire extinguishers, bridge carpeting, Systems Monitor, sunpad, gas shocks for hatches and seating, a porthole…)
- includes immediate professional rehab of critical systems
(Vacu-Flush toilets, all sanitation lines, vent filter, AC raw water lines, both AC raw water strainers)
- includes normal navigation supplies (dock lines, fenders, flag/pole, etc.)
- includes replacements for systems failed since acquisition
(freshwater pump, one AC, microwave/convection oven, windlass, nav light, batteries, washer/dryer combo, cockpit/enclosure/windshield canvas, batteries…)
- includes prophylactic replacement, for systems deemed about to fail (one AC)
- includes parts and additional seasonal maintenance cost for serviceable systems (engines, genset, Vacu-Flush)
- includes replacement for a major engine electronics control system failure (~$23K -- in the "..it happens" category)
- cleaning (washing, waxing, detailing)
- hired systems maintenance or troubleshooting (engines, refrigeration, hydraulic lift, fire extinguisher inspection, resecure shore power cord…)
- on-going expenses (seasonal winterizing, seasonal haul/chores/relaunch, etc)
- a boatload of other small PITA work (the project list currently sits at 637 line items… counting all categories…)
(repairing door latches, repairing broken cockpit seating, replace missing or disconnected bonding wires, replacing sliding door and screen trucks, etc.)

A very few actual upgrades $20K):
- new electronics: MFD, redundant transducer, AIS, redundant VHF/antenna/hailer horn
(the MFD replaced a failed original unit, so could have been partly included above)
- new anchor chain, upsized from original IMO inadequate chain
- new anchor, upsized from the replacement (way too inadequate) anchor that came on the boat
- interior windshield tinting
- inverter/charger purchase and installation

I haven't tried to cite exact numbers in individual categories; the "general" sections of my spreadsheet are too cluttered to do that cleanly. Costs above don't include my own labor… and I try to do everything I can myself. There are obvious exceptions: when I physically can't get there from here (or lift that from here to there), when I don't have a clue (e.g., refrigeration), when I don't have the skill or necessary tools… so for the most part, our hired labor charges have been about engine electronics failure repair, battery replacements, upgrade installations, and periodic cleaning (above and below the waterline).

Full coverage (agreed value) insurance is about $4K/year -- now that we're back on the Chesapeake… but it also includes coverage in Florida even during hurricane season, if we wanted to do that. (Don't.)

Dockage in our current home slip is currently $7500/year. Marina with onsite boatyard. Boatbuilding roots back to the 1860s. Nice place.

I haven't closely computed on-going fuel costs, yet… other than what was included in our initial "delivery" trip. I have decent details, just haven’t told the spreadsheet how to do the math. A quick glance looks like $3-4K/year…. Probably about half of our cruising, perhaps more, is at "trawler" speed, circa 8.5 kts and circa 6-ish GPH total (plus another 1 GPH when we have the genset running).

It won't have been obvious above, but some of the previous wear and tear is likely because the boat ended up in Florida at some time or other (don't know when), even though it was originally sold in Port Clinton, Ohio. The more obvious part (to me) is that the just-previous owner apparently didn't know how to change a lightbulb (literally), apparently didn't know how/when/whether to do maintenance or not, in general probably didn't have a clue. Two anecdotes: 1) Our marine surveyor asked the seller who does his diesel maintenance. Seller said he hadn't been able to find local MAN service. The MAN service tech was standing about two feet to seller's left. It had taken me about one online question to find the local MAN guys down there. 2) Sellers told me he didn't like MarineMax… because one time they let him leave their dock at low tide. He grounded. Honked the horn to try to get MM's attention. Blamed it all on them. Uh, huh.

-Chris

 

[O C Diver]

All of a sudden my upcoming yard bill doesn't seem so bad.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

Yeah...

Initial notes to self:

1a) Get a better marine surveyor
1b) Stand over the marine surveyor with a whip and a chain, if necessary, to be sure everything that's inspectable gets tested.

2) Instead of a 15 year old boat approaching replacement time for several major systems (ACs, etc.)... try to find a 16- or 17-year-old boat that's already gotten those replacements.

3) Buy closer to home, if possible.

4) If you buy in Florida, try talking The Admiral into letting you get out of the hurricane zone, in Summer, at a slower speed.

Our surveyor wasn't horrible, actually, but several of the things he missed could maybe have been negotiated out of purchase price... and/or at least wouldn't have been such a surprise (aka PITA) having to deal with it myself. Windlass -- motor ball of rust -- for example. Hydraulic lift issues. Broken VHF antenna. Et cetera.

And some replacements I would have preferred to do on my own dime anyway... so those costs aren't so irritating. MFD, AIS, and redundant transducer and VHF, for example. So I could pick what I was mostly already familiar with...

-Chris

 

[rwidman]

The buyer doesn't pay the seller's broker fee.

 

[kthoennes]

Ranger's post is really good just for purposes of the list or items and tasks and costs, even aside from the actual amounts. We bought our current boat for an incredibly low price, the previous owner just wanted to be done with it and concentrate on other things in life. The asking price was so low that we offered to walk away and not hold him to it, it felt like we were taking advantage of him, but he told us we'd be doing him a big favor -- so okay, we pulled the trigger. And then the money hemorrhage began, even though the previous owner's maintenance was outstanding (he was a robotics engineer) and our shipping could not have gone better on both ends, including breakdown and reassembly, which is a rarity.

(The only other thing that crosses my mind in that opening post is that the definition of a "Chevy" grade boat is definitely relative.)

 

[ranger58sb]

The buyer doesn't pay the seller's broker fee.

Correct, but it's included in the seller's cost... so included within the seller's price... hence impact on buyer's overall expenditures.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

(The only other thing that crosses my mind in that opening post is that the definition of a "Chevy" grade boat is definitely relative.)

Wasn't mean to sound pejorative. Just meant not the low-priced spread, but also not a Viking, Hatteras, Fleming, Sabre, Nordhavn, etc.

Lot's of good in mid-grade affordable boats. And cars. And it even happens I drive a Chevy. And have even driven Fords and Jeeps and Plymouths and so forth over the years.

-Chris

 

[rwidman]

Correct, but it's included in the seller's cost... so included within the seller's price... hence impact on buyer's overall expenditures.

-Chris

If the boat sells for $XXX, that is the buyer's cost. It doesn't matter what the seller does with the money.

 

[ranger58sb]

If the boat sells for $XXX, that is the buyer's cost. It doesn't matter what the seller does with the money.

Certainly. But it also means some of what I paid went to the seller's broker. Assuming the seller eventually paid his broker.

-Chris

 

[kthoennes]

Wasn't mean to sound pejorative. Just meant not the low-priced spread, but also not a Viking, Hatteras, Fleming, Sabre, Nordhavn, etc....
-Chris

Oh I didn't take it that way at all, just an amusing observation. Yep. When my boys ask how much a boat costs, I always say, that's like asking how much a house costs -- it's all relative my son. One man's Chevy is another man's -- Yugo, Rolls Royce, Bentley, AMC Pacer. I get what you mean though, and I agree with those examples of -- notches above a Chevy.

We're at the point in life when we could swing a six-figure boat, although I'd rather not -- but if we win the Powerball, I'm going shopping for a Seaton 83. One of our marina neighbors bought a 2003 Silverton 35 for around six figures and he loves it. He thinks he got a great deal. Good for him, high five. I make fun of my own boat that it's a big white fiberglass tennis shoe, but that '03 Silverton 35 really does look like a giant basketball sneaker. Sorry to those on TF who might have one, but dudes, your boat looks like a basketball sneaker. If you ever criss-crossed white mooring lines across the lower helm windshield like shoe laces and named the boat "Nike" or "Puma" you'd get sued for sneaker design copyright infringement. But if you own one and love it, great, to each his own. (Just the 2003, they did a swoopy side deck that year.)

I made the money-wasting mistake of buying a series of cheap dinghies and when I was cursing out yet another leak in the our "Walmart" dinghy (didn't really buy it there but that's what I call it) my son said to me, Dad, you have to stop buying Walmart dinghies and buy a Palm Beach Yacht Show dinghy. Well yeah, right after the Seaton 83...

 

[PierreR]

Ranger58sb you have caused me to start listing out the projects with costs for getting my boat to where I want to get the boat to for cruising full time.
The list is pretty long and I will use boater correction math when I am finished with it. (Multiply time and money X 3)

 

[Delta Riverat]

Our boat was not six figures when we bought it, but was 6 after we got it ready to take home -

 

[twistedtree]

Great posts. It gives a good flavor of initial boat ownership. That first year will be expensive as you fit out the boat to your desires, fix all the stuff you knew was broken, and fix all the stuff you didn't know was broken.


But in my experience after that first year or so, costs can be pretty modest (relatively speaking) unless you have major upgrade projects.

 

[ranger58sb]

Great posts. It gives a good flavor of initial boat ownership. That first year will be expensive as you fit out the boat to your desires, fix all the stuff you knew was broken, and fix all the stuff you didn't know was broken.

But in my experience after that first year or so, costs can be pretty modest (relatively speaking) unless you have major upgrade projects.

Yes, or unless there's a significant and unusual systems failure of some sort.

Recently, part of our electronic gear controller system crapped out. The system is three parts: the gear lever controls on the bridge, and then two electronics boxes (enclosed boards), one for each engine. At first our guys thought it was the gear lever controller on the bridge; replaced, no joy.

Further snooping found one of the boxes had been replaced before -- with a unit pulled from another boat (and presumably refurbished), that had apparently exhibited the same symptoms we were seeing (repeatedly flashing itself ON and OFF, according to the painter's tape label attached to the backside of it). Replaced that, all good.

Expensive hardware, expensive labor. <sigh>

But I'd call this an out-of-the-ordinary issue, not at all common... maybe even from a lightning strike or some such. (Which could maybe have been a cause, at some earlier point in its life?) Not a budget item, but then also not an issue that can be ignored or or where a fix could be delayed.

We'd previously been troubleshooting why the trolling valves didn't work. When the smoke cleared from above, our guys worked out that our trolling valves had been electrically connected backwards -- boat positive to valve negative, etc. -- apparently from the factory. (?) And apparently no previous owners noticed, or cared. Works now, though.

Speaking to upgrades... I didn't mean to make my original post sound all that terrifically negative. I bought in, knowing all along that I'd want to do some upgrades (as listed) and also expecting up front that several expensive systems (AC and so forth, also listed) would be approaching end-of-life. Not too many huge surprises there, so far (although the windlass discovery was certainly irritating, since it could have been discovered during survey).

Otherwise, most of the PITA projects have been about PO neglect: missing fasteners here, missing gas shocks there, loose door catches and burned out light bulbs everywhere, etc. Little time wasters... in many cases not because the fix itself is difficult, but instead because getting to the fix isn't so easy. For example, one of our underwater bulbs is burned out. I could care less about having underwater lights, but my rule is everything on the boat must work as intended. I have a replacement bulb. It's replaceable from inside the boat. I haven't figured out how to get near it yet...

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

Ranger58sb you have caused me to start listing out the projects with costs for getting my boat to where I want to get the boat to for cruising full time.
The list is pretty long and I will use boater correction math when I am finished with it. (Multiply time and money X 3)

Good math.

I wouldn't normally have tracked our costs so closely, but we're old... so we entered into this one knowing full well our time with this boat may well be limited simply due to age and health issues.

Based on our buying experience this time -- initial contract subject to successful maintenance records review (the seller had squat for engine maintenance) -- I decided we'd best compile factoids (for the next owner) throughout our ownership period.

And then what started as a bunch of one-liners in a TO DO LIST spreadsheet became a semi-easy way to list individual problems, and then track fixes and costs.

More recently, a TO DO project is more like an option, beginning to start with the words "Consider..."

For example, one idea I've thought of is removing (huge) interior basket strainers for the engines and replacing those with exterior "South Bay" strainers... which would help de-clutter our engine room a bit. (Pre-purchase, I didn't quite fully appreciate the "shape" impacts of V-style engines.) But this is definitely a "we'll see" -- or maybe a "round tuit" -- project...

-Chris

 

[Action]

Interesting.
Doing the math - you bought for $20K and added a little over $80K

What was the time frame for the purchase?
Pre or post COVID?

 

[kthoennes]

...I could care less about having underwater lights, but my rule is everything on the boat must work as intended. ...
-Chris

Yep. I'm a victim of the same obsession. Right down to the little rubber boots on the switches at the helm -- they're cracked or gone, have to replace them.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Excellent comments thus far! I'm not going to read through the whole post again but in case it hasn't been mentioned, one has to keep very much in mind the increasing costs of boating. What was $400 last year might easily be $600 next year IF it is even available.
Everything from insurance to that burnt out bulb outside the head appears to be ???? and for once I'm at a loss for words.

 

[kthoennes]

Yep -- I know boaters always joke or lament about cost, comes with the territory, and we've had so many threads about cost and markets of course, but it seems to me at some point inflation is going to start pushing more and more people out of boating. Inflation in boating and marine stuff far above average inflation rates for life in general, as bad as that is. I keep meticulous track of every boat expense in Excel, but I never run a "Σ" (total) because I just don't want to know.

 

[ABfish]

I appreciate the honesty of the post. A lot of folks fool themselves as to actual expenditures.

I also have adopted the idea of "prophylactic" repair (I had to look that up, though I caught the meaning through context). On my recently purchased vessel, two of the four a/c units have been replaced. I'm going to do the other two before they crap out.

If you want a lot of pleasurable uptime with your vessel, you need a maintenance program that replaces stuff that's nearing the end of its projected life, but before it breaks.

 

[guy with a boat]

Acquisition-related costs (approx. $20K):
- actual purchase cost (includes seller's broker fees)
- air, hotel, and rental car
- marine and mechanical surveys, haul-out
- hired delivery from purchase point to staging (service, then pick-up) point
- 3 months marina costs (Ft. Myers)
- self-delivery from pick-up point (Ft. Myers) to home slip (Annapolis) -- fuel and dockage (about $12K, at high speed)

-Chris

Did you miss (at least) a zero on the cost for this category, or am I misunderstanding that the actual purchase price is included?

 

[BroadCove]

Purchase price in the list provided is excluded as best I can tell; the $20k is the costs associated with the acquisition, not the actual acquisition cost.

And I love this post because, not currently having the time or skill to do my own work, it makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one that spends way too much $$$ on my boat!

 

[ranger58sb]

Interesting.
Doing the math - you bought for $20K and added a little over $80K

What was the time frame for the purchase?
Pre or post COVID?

Did you miss (at least) a zero on the cost for this category, or am I misunderstanding that the actual purchase price is included?

Purchase price in the list provided is excluded as best I can tell; the $20k is the costs associated with the acquisition, not the actual acquisition cost.

Didn't mean for that to be unclear. Those were airline, hotel, rental car, haul-out, marine survey, and mechanical survey costs. Plus marina costs associated with getting the engines rehabbed before we tried to go anywhere on the boat. Not purchase price.

Yes, this was during the height of the first year of Covid. Asking prices were mostly going crazy at the time, sellers adding anywhere from $100-250K to a "normal" price... and apparently often getting it. Boats were often (usually) under contract before the listing appeared on Yacht World. Typical action at the time was to make an offer, sight unseen, sort out the details afterwards.

Our eventual purchase price came in at about $100K below what we could best assess as typical actual selling prices for this model. Taking into account renegotiations after surveys. And IIRC about $250K less than the highest asking price we saw, for this particular model year.

-Chris

 

[kthoennes]

This thread makes me think back to our own initial acquisition cost which was pretty shocking even though it wasn't our first rodeo. We had a Carver 3207 shipped from Texas to South Dakota a few years prior, so we had a rough idea. But of course that was a much smaller boat that wasn't nearly as tall or long or heavy and only required removal of the flybridge cowling to get it under 14. If we're also counting hotel and plane tickets and car rental and a couple prep trips out to Rhode Island to gear up for taking delivery and sailing away, and some entirely elective or optional work and upgrades done before shipping -- yikes, I don't even want to think about all that.

Even so though, I wouldn't have traded the memories of that trip and that experience for anything, worth every penny. Newport (at the same time as the (Volvo) Ocean Race re-start on Narragansett Bay), Mystic, Black Rock, Northport, Long Island Sound, Manhattan, Liberty Landing, then up the Hudson. Those three weeks we spent money like we were setting it on fire, but it was still worth it. I remember our shipper/trucker fell through at the last minute and I settled up with a new trucking company on my cell phone at the upper helm as we were somewhere around Kingston, with just two days to go before we handed the boat over to Coeymans Marina to be pulled and loaded. Boy that was fun. Adventures can be expensive.

 

[fgarriso]

Did anyone say boats were inexpensive?

Or just a bottomless hole in the water.

 

[Simi 60]

Did anyone say boats were inexpensive?

Or just a bottomless hole in the water.

The cost of our vessel, the last 7 years of paid maintenance and diesel would only cover 3 years of rental of a 2 bedroom appartment in our current location

I'd never see the rental money again......gone forever
But at least I'd own the boat.

 

[High Wire]

75’ eh? Your budget MIGHT buy a used 1973 14’ Lund. ?

 

[RedRascal]

Just learned of a new type of acquisition cost. I am looking at a boat with transferable moorage. I am in the Seattle market and moorage is generally tight here so I thought transferable moorage could save me a hassle. I called the marina to inquire about the transfer process and was informed the "Transfer fee" from 1 owner to another is equal to 1 months moorage to in essence cut to the front of the waitlist line. So that means I could end up paying 13 months of moorage for a 12 month period. That seems like a steep transfer fee to me but I guess I need to get with the times.

 

[CharlieO.]

Just learned of a new type of acquisition cost. I am looking at a boat with transferable moorage. I am in the Seattle market and moorage is generally tight here so I thought transferable moorage could save me a hassle. I called the marina to inquire about the transfer process and was informed the "Transfer fee" from 1 owner to another is equal to 1 months moorage to in essence cut to the front of the waitlist line. So that means I could end up paying 13 months of moorage for a 12 month period. That seems like a steep transfer fee to me but I guess I need to get with the times.

That seems like a good deal to me. Better than paying to be on multiple waitlists for an unknown amount of time until your number is called.

 

[Shrew]

So that means I could end up paying 13 months of moorage for a 12 month period. That seems like a steep transfer fee to me but I guess I need to get with the times.

LOL!! That sounds like a screaming deal to me. How long is the waitlist?? Would you rather wait 1 - 2 years?