Speed limit proposal

[Art]

Can't there be some sort of sound/impulse/vibration forced into water off of big ships that would make whales want to steer way clear? I imagine this has been tried with little to no success.

Nothing against whales... but, I have been told they are smart... why in the heck would they come close to a bug noisy ship anyway?? Maybe it's just baby whales that get chewed up??; cause they know no better.

 

[backinblue]

Also what is so magic about 10 knots? So whales have time to get out of the way or just so the damage is less? I wonder whether this would actually accomplish anything more than making us feel good we tried something.

 

[FWT]

Can't there be some sort of sound/impulse/vibration forced into water off of big ships that would make whales want to steer way clear? I imagine this has been tried with little to no success.

Nothing against whales... but, I have been told they are smart... why in the heck would they come close to a bug noisy ship anyway?? Maybe it's just baby whales that get chewed up??; cause they know no better.

Instead of this proposed solution, my vote is we require whales to attend mandatory ship avoidance training.

 

[psneeld]

Right whales are called that from whalers who found it easy to go right up to them without spooking them. Not sure it will be easy to find a particular sound to mke them sound. They may be trying to find it.

10 knots may be a good number, maybe the scientists know maybe this is a temporary target.

It sorta works for manatees too, they dive slow so slow speeds gives them time to evade being hit.

 

[SteveK]

Humpback protects woman from shark
https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/me...316727942/640x360_MP4_1721244855316727942.mp4

Why would anyone want to harm these friendly creatures?
Most collisions are said to be in high traffic shipping lanes. A freighter travels at 20-25 knots, whales average about 17 knots. I suspect the speed difference may be their enemy, but doing 10 knots everywhere is an overkill solution by bureaucrats. Whales can be tracked and alerts can be made to slow traffic within the known area.

 

[markpierce]

The best onion rings ever consumed (by me) were at a restaurant just south of Eureka California, owned by a former whaler. ... There is redemption.

 

[KnotYet]

Humpback protects woman from shark
https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/me...316727942/640x360_MP4_1721244855316727942.mp4

Why would anyone want to harm these friendly creatures?
Most collisions are said to be in high traffic shipping lanes. A freighter travels at 20-25 knots, whales average about 17 knots. I suspect the speed difference may be their enemy, but doing 10 knots everywhere is an overkill solution by bureaucrats. Whales can be tracked and alerts can be made to slow traffic within the known area.

If you would bother to read the proposal you would know that it is not for a
10 kt limit everywhere. It is seasonal based on the known patterns of the NA
right whale migration which has altered in recent years and continues to be
studied. All hundred or so NA right whales cannot be tracked as their range
can extend for many thousands of miles. Individuals also come and go from
other groups. As mentioned previously, the loss of a single individual could
result in the eventual extinction of these whales that were already nearly
made extinct a century ago.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Another thing I don't have to worry about. Don't run the boat over 10 knots.

 

[Lepke]

If you research the statistics, most of the deaths are in Canada.

Only ships with high value cargoes travel faster than about 12 knots. Speed is about profit and fuel cost. And warships have us buying the fuel. Ships that need to go fast can do so away from the coast and only have to slow when coming into port.

Probably 95% of the pleasure boats are not effected. And not many fishing boats go faster than 10 knots.

Krill is one of the Right Whale's main food source and some countries consume krill. It's possible food sources are getting scarce and the whale is going to be where the most krill are. Krill landings are going up. About 300,000 tons per year. Bagoong alamang in the Philippines.

Maybe the government should raise krill and release them off shore. The government spends money in worse ways. I don't want to read about the last Right Whale dying.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Can't there be some sort of sound/impulse/vibration forced into water off of big ships that would make whales want to steer way clear? I imagine this has been tried with little to no success.

Nothing against whales... but, I have been told they are smart... why in the heck would they come close to a bug noisy ship anyway?? Maybe it's just baby whales that get chewed up??; cause they know no better.

I agree. Years ago we use-to mount “deer whistles” on our front bumpers and motorcycles front fenders that made a noise deer didn’t like. Was inaudible to people. Didn’t always work but much of the time it obviously did. Like most things applying it to whales may result in negative side affects.

Re opinion I would like to see all commercial whale watching stopped. If you can’t enforce the laws of separation just eliminate it.
Orcas, whales, elephants, and other large animals get lots of attention but small more or less insignificant critters go w/o even passing notice. And many of them are more important than the big animals we fuss over.

 

[koliver]

Re opinion I would like to see all commercial whale watching stopped. If you can’t enforce the laws of separation just eliminate it.
Orcas, whales, elephants, and other large animals get lots of attention but small more or less insignificant critters go w/o even passing notice. And many of them are more important than the big animals we fuss over.

Eric, I agree. Saturday I was crossing the Gulf, and passed 3 Whale Watching boats near Silva Bay. less than an hour later I was out in the middle and saw Humpies breaching. After watching them for a few minutes, from about 1 mile away, I saw one of those WW boats speeding up to the whales to give their load of tourists a close up thrill. From my distance I couldn't see exactly how close they came, but it sure looked a lot closer than they should go.

 

[Art]

I agree. Years ago we use-to mount “deer whistles” on our front bumpers and motorcycles front fenders that made a noise deer didn’t like. Was inaudible to people. Didn’t always work but much of the time it obviously did. Like most things applying it to whales may result in negative side affects.

Re opinion I would like to see all commercial whale watching stopped. If you can’t enforce the laws of separation just eliminate it.
Orcas, whales, elephants, and other large animals get lots of attention but small more or less insignificant critters go w/o even passing notice. And many of them are more important than the big animals we fuss over.

Good input.

 

[Slowmo]

As to the speed limit it would be the most widely ignored 'law' ever enacted. In the PNW we see the whale 'researcher's hounding the local population of whales then yelling at other's to keep away. Then add in the whale watch boats and the poor animals are being herded. The so called speed limit wouldn't help, not that anyone cares what NOAA wants. Just stop snooping on the poor whales.

 

[psneeld]

I think it is a behavioral difference between many whales and right whales that have caused the speed limit to be enacted. Even though the push seems to be to protect all whale species.

It may not be a complete solution but right whales like manatees may disproportionately suffer from boat strikes than other whales.

Having seen and photographed hundreds if not thousands of whales from the Arctic to the Antarctic and participating in the NOAA sighting program much of my USCG career, different species definitely act differently.

If slower speeds help even save just a few...it could be worth it.

Here is something on speed limits and Manatees....

"ABSTRACT: Collisions with boats account for approximately 25% of all documented manatee Trichechus manatus latirostris deaths in Florida"

"Boat speed limits are believed to reduce risks in 3 primary ways: (1) greater reaction time for the boat operator; (2) greater reaction time for the man- atee; and (3) reduced severity of injuries in the event that a manatee is hit by a boat."

https://www.int-res.com/articles/es... reduce risks,that a manatee is hit by a boat.

 

[Art]

I think it is a behavioral difference between many whales and right whales that have caused the speed limit to be enacted. Even though the push seems to be to protect all whale species.

It may not be a complete solution but right whales like manatees may disproportionately suffer from boat strikes than other whales.

Having seen and photographed hundreds if not thousands of whales from the Arctic to the Antarctic and participating in the NOAA sighting program much of my USCG career, different species definitely act differently.

If slower speeds help even save just a few...it could be worth it.

Here is something on speed limits and Manatees....

"ABSTRACT: Collisions with boats account for approximately 25% of all documented manatee Trichechus manatus latirostris deaths in Florida"

"Boat speed limits are believed to reduce risks in 3 primary ways: (1) greater reaction time for the boat operator; (2) greater reaction time for the man- atee; and (3) reduced severity of injuries in the event that a manatee is hit by a boat."

https://www.int-res.com/articles/es... reduce risks,that a manatee is hit by a boat.

P - You probably know boats [big and small] and marine doings and marine life in general as good or better that most. So I again offer this suggestion:

To stop whales, manatee and other large marine life from being struck/sliced by propellers why not have slender, relatively wide open-area "cages" [for lack of a better word] near and/or around propellers.

In other words. These marine life [regarding fending off props for large animals only] wide open-area "cages" would be built with very rugged, durable round stock material that has just a few lengths of the [contoured near the propeller area] round stock so that the large animal slides past the propeller by its body gliding against the round stock.

Seems to me that with relatively few round stock lengths well positioned near and about propellers the fending off of animals bodies from contact with props could be accomplished.

Properly designed [few numbers of round sock pieces required] and well fastened to boat bottoms/keels... these ["Sea-Life-Defender"] large animal life saving apparatus should create a limited amount of drag regarding boat operations.

Engineering should be relatively easy to accomplish... that enables a non-operational intrusive, yet large sea life saving "Sea-Life-Defender" for each applicable boat/ship.

 

[psneeld]

I believe something like a decade ago there was a mandate by the USCG that manufacturers develop methods to prevent prop strike injuries...at least to human (probably would work beyond). May have just been for outboards.

Never did hear where that wound up.

 

[koliver]

I believe something like a decade ago there was a mandate by the USCG that manufacturers develop methods to prevent prop strike injuries...at least to human (probably would work beyond). May have just been for outboards.

Never did hear where that wound up.

There is no sign of anything having changed in protection for people in the water. An operator can still run an outboard over and injure a person as easily as at any time in the past.

 

[backinblue]

There is no sign of anything having changed in protection for people in the water. An operator can still run an outboard over and injure a person as easily as at any time in the past.

I agree, but we now have table saws that won't cut your finger, so there may be some possible solutions if we cared enough. Easier to create a speed limit and feel good even if it doesn't accomplish much.

 

[KnotYet]

The kind of boat strikes that are addressed by the NOAA proposed speed
limit are impact trauma, not propeller cuts. The North Atlantic right whales
can be longer than 60' and weigh as much as 117 tons. It is possible a
glancing strike could inflict a propeller wound but that doesn't seem to be
a common event. They are being killed by impact and entanglement in fishing gear.

 

[AlaskaProf]

P -
To stop whales, manatee and other large marine life from being struck/sliced by propellers


...

Engineering should be relatively easy to accomplish... that enables a non-operational intrusive, yet large sea life saving "Sea-Life-Defender" for each applicable boat/ship.

Probably helpful for manatees and small boats in shallow waters where they are found, but for the "great whales," that isn't the issue.

 

[Comodave]

There is no sign of anything having changed in protection for people in the water. An operator can still run an outboard over and injure a person as easily as at any time in the past.

Go on utube and search for “boat idiots”. It is simply amazing that there are not more serious injuries and deaths with what some of the idiots are doing, sometimes on purpose.

 

[psneeld]

I agree prop guards may be a smaller part of protecting larger marine mammals......

Here is some info about the USCG actions I was discussing...

https://www.propellersafety.com/proposed-propeller-guard-regulations/

 

[Art]

I had no idea that hull-strikes, causing physical trauma, is a main item regarding ships that kills whales. And... I'm amazed that whales stay/get that close to ships... wherein hull-strikes can happen.

 

[catalinajack]

I suggest you leave enforcement to the pros...they have some clue as to works and what the effects are.



Whatever starts slowing them down in mass. That's how some speed limit areas work on roads. Doesn't slow them all, but many if not most start to hear where enforcement is up. I believe the maritime speed limit has worked in other areas such as So. Georgia as they have been around for awhile.



There are many flights every day by aircraft capable of reporting violators that are on other missions or on general patrol. Some can be obtained even for brief peiods f time coupled with surface assets that can sting a few, then check to see how traffic behavior changes...or not. The cycle repeats.

Uh, in fact, I was in law enforcement for 33 years. My point was that this law will have no affect, that it will not work. Please tell me how law enforcement will patrol thousands of square miles of ocean looking for speeders. Sure, once in awhile some bloke will get caught and pay a fine. It won't change behavior one bit and isn't that the "point" of any law? Will sport fishing charter boats obey? I rather think not.

 

[catalinajack]

Humpback protects woman from shark

https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/me...316727942/640x360_MP4_1721244855316727942.mp4



Why would anyone want to harm these friendly creatures?

Most collisions are said to be in high traffic shipping lanes. A freighter travels at 20-25 knots, whales average about 17 knots. I suspect the speed difference may be their enemy, but doing 10 knots everywhere is an overkill solution by bureaucrats. Whales can be tracked and alerts can be made to slow traffic within the known area.

No one "wants" to hurt them.

 

[psneeld]

Uh, in fact, I was in law enforcement for 33 years. My point was that this law will have no affect, that it will not work. Please tell me how law enforcement will patrol thousands of square miles of ocean looking for speeders. Sure, once in awhile some bloke will get caught and pay a fine. It won't change behavior one bit and isn't that the "point" of any law? Will sport fishing charter boats obey? I rather think not.

I was one of those guys who patrolled way more than thousands of square miles.

Electronics these days reach out even farther now. The areas of greatest concern can be concentrated on.

A large enough fine alters behavior when the behavior change is not all that severe. This is not like telling fisherman to stop fishing or limit it.... it is just asking vessels in some areas to slow down. If the fine is severe enough (which might be the weakest past till corrected), it will have some impact, but true it never alters the behavior of the worst.

As I posted before...at least now there will be a law to use, before there was none. So there IS some reason to have it. The better argument against it would be that the speed limit has no impact on the amount or severity of strikes which I don't thing anyone can really answer now. Most marine studies are woefully incomplete.

 

[DaveGibson]

People in Sport Fisherman yachts will totally ignore any speed limit, as they do now. They are, and have always been, a hazard to navigation and wildlife the way that 90% of them operate their boats. You need no license to operate one of these things. Just the cash to buy it.

 

[psneeld]

People in Sport Fisherman yachts will totally ignore any speed limit, as they do now. They are, and have always been, a hazard to navigation and wildlife the way that 90% of them operate their boats. You need no license to operate one of these things. Just the cash to buy it.

In some states you need a safety certificate and while they may still opetate without one, make the fines for multiple crimes big enough and take away things like Federal tuna and pelagic permirs and add those fines...you may find a lot of them slowing in the designated waters.

 

[FWT]

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/ais-for-safety-they-said-now-ais

 

[backinblue]

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/ais-for-safety-they-said-now-ais

Good article thanks. I'm not real comfortable with AIS being used as a law enforcement tool. It would be the same as sending speeding tickets to drivers based on GPS data monitoring. I'm also not convinced that the boater who killed a whale at 14 knots would have had a significantly different outcome at 10 knots. I'm not against protecting whales, just not certain this is the way to do it.