Electric Shock Drowning Prevention and ELCIs Explained

[psneeld]

If he knows what he needs but just cant find the terminal end...sure why not.

I bet there is more to it, but this particular example doesnt have enough info to say one way or the other. Sure there are dipshi* replies, pretty common, unless you really read long term reponses from an individual to know where they are coming from.

I have several engineer friends with boats that laugh at the conservative writings, forums, posts, guidelines, cables recommendation charts, etc. Conservative is fine until one really engineers it.

I often use recommended, and sometimes larger, sometime good enough, sometimes top grade, sometimes box store...etc...etc.... But never without a lot of study and support from those in the know.

Without knowing specifics...a lot of internet speculation of some poster's ability smacks of narrow mindedness.

I hold very high aviation credentials, yet I am not so naive or arrogant to think some electricians can't be better pilots than me...or vice versa.

Learning can come in many forms. Intelligence and expertise comes from compounding many rhings in life...not just years at a job or "experience" spread out over those years. As I posted before, some people learn much faster than others.

 

[Benthic2]

For those that were asking about when you get a "tingle" vs when you drown.... A lot of it has to do with access to air. If you are washing your hands and experience a full body muscle spasm, you won't ingest water and sink. A diver on scuba will clench his teeth on a regulator and still have access to air. When these drownings occour it is not the electricity that directly causes the fatality. The electricity causes the victim to lose the ability to swim/hold their head up...then the drowning cycle takes over.

 

[dannc]

For those that were asking about when you get a "tingle" vs when you drown.... A lot of it has to do with access to air. If you are washing your hands and experience a full body muscle spasm, you won't ingest water and sink. A diver on scuba will clench his teeth on a regulator and still have access to air. When these drownings occour it is not the electricity that directly causes the fatality. The electricity causes the victim to lose the ability to swim/hold their head up...then the drowning cycle takes over.

About this time a teen age live guard drowned in a pool. It appears that she was holding a metal support and reached into the water for the sample when she was shocked. She fell into the water and drowned. Very sad.

A person who found her tried to get her out of the water but was shocked and could not perform a rescue.

I believe a faulty underwater light was what caused the shock.

Later,
Dan

 

[Fletcher500]

Those animals especially fish can sense electric currents and I think either swim away. Or they shock a little and drift away then recover.

When we free dive in the open ocean, a buddy and I wear these:

https://sharkshield.com/

Previous gen's weren't very good, but the newer ones are, and have quite a bit of science behind them. There are a lot of skeptics out there, and there are no guarantees in life, but I have found them to be a good investment.

30- 40 lb Yellowtail off Pt. Loma 3 weeks ago.

 

[Seevee]

If he knows what he needs but just cant find the terminal end...sure why not.

I bet there is more to it, but this particular example doesnt have enough info to say one way or the other. Sure there are dipshi* replies, pretty common, unless you really read long term reponses from an individual to know where they are coming from.

I have several engineer friends with boats that laugh at the conservative writings, forums, posts, guidelines, cables recommendation charts, etc. Conservative is fine until one really engineers it.

I often use recommended, and sometimes larger, sometime good enough, sometimes top grade, sometimes box store...etc...etc.... But never without a lot of study and support from those in the know.

Without knowing specifics...a lot of internet speculation of some poster's ability smacks of narrow mindedness.

I hold very high aviation credentials, yet I am not so naive or arrogant to think some electricians can't be better pilots than me...or vice versa.

Learning can come in many forms. Intelligence and expertise comes from compounding many rhings in life...not just years at a job or "experience" spread out over those years. As I posted before, some people learn much faster than others.

psneeld,

You've got a lot of experience, but didn't realize that you were heavy into aviation, too. I'm kinda in the same "boat" no pun intended, but without the depth of boating experience. Geeze, what haven't you done?

I hold an A&P, A&I, and ATP. But, regardless of the credentials, we must know our limits and the intricacies of marine electricity would require a sharp marine electrician for me. Some of the basics are pretty simple, but when talking about the life saving stuff in this thread we do not want to make mistakes.

Now, thinking of my next move.....

 

[psneeld]

True, but many things in life are monkey see, monkey do.

No inderstanding necessary as long as you hit all the important marks.

Thus the main reason for tbese forums in my opinion.

Ever look through a DIY electrical book for wiring a house? The diagrams alone are simple enough to mimick.

While I would never think that designing the wiring for a whole house from the outside breaker is a DIY project, wiring a sub panel or some outlets is hardly challenging for those willing to spend a few hours researching the nuisances.

Handing over the controls of an airplane to someone who has never flown before, with a little coaching doesnt mean instant death. Neither does wiring a few simple circuits.

Maybe for some that maxes them out, but for the vast majority of handy people, no big deal. Even the checks to see if you are bleeding electricity are simple enough.

 

[caltexflanc]

Yeah, that is true. However, one of the best quotes I've seen is in Peggie H's signature. Something to effect that if you can't explain it to a 6 year old, you don't understand it. Many of us here do that on a daily basis. I do it for each patient I see. I have just a few minutes to explain things well enough for them to make an informed decision. That is hard to do in some cases as the information I am providing is completely foreign to them yet it is important that they understand enough to make an informed decision.

Electricians that I've dealt with have to do the same thing. They have to explain to me what needs to be done and what my options are so I can make a decision. That is a challenge for them.

Even as a tow boat skipper, you had to explain what you could and couldn't do, how you were going to do it, and do all that in such a way that the stressed out person understands and agrees. Not an easy task.

I highly recommend Nigel Calder's "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual". Easy to read for the layperson, but comprehensive. A "must" on any cruising boat IMO.

 

[Seevee]

True, but many things in life are monkey see, monkey do.

No inderstanding necessary as long as you hit all the important marks.

Thus the main reason for tbese forums in my opinion.

Ever look through a DIY electrical book for wiring a house? The diagrams alone are simple enough to mimick.

While I would never think that designing the wiring for a whole house from the outside breaker is a DIY project, wiring a sub panel or some outlets is hardly challenging for those willing to spend a few hours researching the nuisances.

Handing over the controls of an airplane to someone who has never flown before, with a little coaching doesnt mean instant death. Neither does wiring a few simple circuits.

Maybe for some that maxes them out, but for the vast majority of handy people, no big deal. Even the checks to see if you are bleeding electricity are simple enough.

Totally Agree, most of the stuff is not that complicated, but I could make an argument to use someone that's done it before and has the knowledge and skills and I'll learn from them. I certainly don't mind just figuring out a lot of simple stuff, that if I goof up it won't be deadly.

 

[rwidman]

In post #44, the poster describes buying a used boat, getting a shock and finding that a previous owner had reversed the hot and neutral shorepower conductors. He only got shocked before he found the problem but he could have been killed. To me, this is a good example of why somebody who isn't qualified to do electrical work shouldn't wire a boat.

The strange thing is, most of us have a skill or skills that we are paid well for. Doctor, lawyer, business owner, accountant, even tow boat operator. We are paid well for these skills because we have the education and experience to do the job well. Ordinary people don't have these skills so they pay us.

Then some of these same skilled people turn around and claim that electrical work is just "monkey see, monkey do".

Electricians typically spend several years working as an apprentice and going to school to learn their trade. They must pass a test to demonstrate their competence. It's not rocket science but it's far from unskilled labor.

If you think what you do for a living is worth being paid for, you should understand that it's the same for an electrician. Or a plumber, mechanic, HVAC technician, etc.

 

[Art]

In post #44, the poster describes buying a used boat, getting a shock and finding that a previous owner had reversed the hot and neutral shorepower conductors. He only got shocked before he found the problem but he could have been killed. To me, this is a good example of why somebody who isn't qualified to do electrical work shouldn't wire a boat.

The strange thing is, most of us have a skill or skills that we are paid well for. Doctor, lawyer, business owner, accountant, even tow boat operator. We are paid well for these skills because we have the education and experience to do the job well. Ordinary people don't have these skills so they pay us.

Then some of these same skilled people turn around and claim that electrical work is just "monkey see, monkey do".

Electricians typically spend several years working as an apprentice and going to school to learn their trade. They must pass a test to demonstrate their competence. It's not rocket science but it's far from unskilled labor.

If you think what you do for a living is worth being paid for, you should understand that it's the same for an electrician. Or a plumber, mechanic, HVAC technician, etc.

"Ordinary people" Trained professionals are ordinary people... well mostly anyway. LOL

"If you think what you do for a living is worth being paid for... " I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are dos and don't regarding what a diy boat owner should do on their boat. And that electricity sits at top of the list for getting trained pro in for at very least consultation if not full on do-it regarding electrical improvements.

Although this does not hold the same danger ranking as electricity... I'm often reading posts where boat owners debate what/why/how/when their black water tanks should be installed/operate.

One smart move I made when we got our Tolly was to first get price reduction for this and second to hire a certified, well accomplished Raritan installer. In 2008 he redid both heads' toilet systems, replenished one of two Lectra San and installed a 30 gallon holding tank for the other head. His cost was just about dollar for dollar the price reduction I'd worked out with the seller. I could have done it myself... but... I severely doubt that after these 9 years of using our boat I would be able to say - I've had not one moment's problem nor one time of bad order. That makes it worthwhile to sometimes seek and pay for trained professional help.

PS: When we first got our boat also I did pay a really good marine electrician to come aboard and look at all the wiring. He had suggestions for improvement but found that the system was OK for continued use. So far... Our Tolly's wiring is operating just fine as it is. If I decide to up grade I've got this fellow's contact address and will call him to perform his electrical magic!

Safe is as Safe Does!

 

[psneeld]

Reversed hot and neutral.

Stepped on gas instead of brake.

Gimme a break....

As I said, some people learn faster than others and apply themselves to do the research to do it right.

Asking on forums is one way to see if you are doing something wrong, and possibly right if you do your homework.or to find out you are in over your head, nothing wrong with that.

I guess no one should cook for themselves...leave it to a professional chef, wouldnt want food poisoning.

But to each their own....

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

You know everything on the forums is the absolute truth so it has to be easy. LOL

 

[psneeld]

I am debating to run a poll whether most here would be told to go hire a pro for every little thing or tips on how to actually do it.

 

[rwidman]

I am debating to run a poll whether most here would be told to go hire a pro for every little thing or tips on how to actually do it.

Why not? Go ahead.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

I learned my limitations years ago after trying to fix things that I shouldn't have, it costs a lot more when you screw up. I do most repairs myself that I have confidence to do but there is usually a Utube to help me decide to attempt the repair or hire someone with more knowledge.

 

[psneeld]

Scott

I learned my limitations years ago after trying to fix things that I shouldn't have, it costs a lot more when you screw up. I do most repairs myself that I have confidence to do but there is usually a Utube to help me decide to attempt the repair or hire someone with more knowledge.

Absolutely agree.....

As Clint said..... "a man has to know his limitations".

It just bothers me when someone on here arbitrarily decides someone elses limitations because of one post.

I thought the reason for these forums is to give others info from a broad source of resources, whether personal experience or links to other info.

Some here state the so freakin obvious....have a question...call a pro...they are the bane of these forums in my opinion.

I will run a poll next week if I can...we will see what the results are and I will seriously consider the results.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

Don't be so tough on some of the posters here and don't compare them to yourself and a few others. Your one of the greatest sources of knowledge on this forum.. I would blindly follow you and a few others here that I have read but certainly not all who post here who may also give good answers from time to time but not always. I guess that's why it is a forum. Most of us who have been on here for some time know the posters that are the ones we can put our trust in. That's not to say I don't learn something from someone else from time to time.

 

[psneeld]

I dont want anyone to follow my advice blindly as I too learn here every day.

The people who say hire a pro within one or sevetal posts I just dont think get the purpose of internet forums. Its only a few and they know who they are.

Anyone can call a pro or read a suspect book passage right off the bat....go for it, why come here?

But if one post saves someone a boat buck who is smart enough to weigh the value of internet posts, then the forum is worth it and tbe naysayers can wallow for all I care.

If I ever give bad advice and sometimes I have, I try quickly to correct it and apologize.

Be hard on the guys who I might not agree with?...I really dont begrudge their opinions...I can allow for a different opinion as I dont have all or the best answers.

But the guy who says hire a pro by post 5 every time, I think is a total detriment to this forum.

Sorry Irv, but I am here to help, not be a yellow pages guy unless we are all stumped.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott no apology to me is necessary or expected and I'm sure all here appreciate your input.

 

[psneeld]

Thanks Irv...just trying to be honest and helpful.

Big hello to your great family, hope I see you all in February.

 

[Bigsfish]

Scott

Thanks, we will be there and you better be or we will get the GC to find you in the Keys and deliver you to Ft Pierce. ��

 

[psneeld]

 

[Benthic2]

The world is not binary.

Every discipine has a continuum of difficulty, and every individual has a continuum of skills, and a conitnuum of learning ability.

Where each one of us draws the line on what we choose to do, and what we choose to delegate is going to be different for every person, every skill, and every situation.

 

[psneeld]

Absolutely not binary....

I choose to be able to expand my skills beyond a few....as long as I understand my limitations and potential dangers, I choose to not limit my potential.

Once past any oncerns, it is my choice to proceed with the project or hire it out, it doest have to be one or the other..

And no one on TF should assume their continuum is similar to anyone elses...especially based on a question or two.

 

[Art]

Sorry Irv, but I am here to help, not be a yellow pages guy unless we are all stumped.

That sounds so old school.

 

[Seevee]

paneled has a good view on this subject.... just know your limitations. And I could argue to get to know something about most everything on your boat. You need to be somewhat educated to make decisions as to who and what makes a good repair or mod.

Many of us have licenses/certification to do things and the license is required by law, like a doctor, lawyer, real estate/boat/insurance broker, etc. However, the license is NOT required if you do these things for yourself.

Perhaps you'll not do your own heard transplant, but you will bandage your wound, treat your cold, etc, and you perhaps will do some of your own legal work, buy and sell your own boats, houses, etc.

And, what if the professional that we hire got a D in that class and is not that good? We need to know enough to figure that out.

As for a marine electrician, I don't believe any certification is required, at least in FL, unlike his counterpart that works on your house. (but I'll stand corrected, if wrong).

I'm totally convinced that most anyone can get the skills that would be equal to that of a certified/licensed pHd in marine electronics, but that will take a lot of time and learning. But he could get enough info just by reading a bit or taking a course or two to be able to have a pretty good idea on what things to watch that would be a safety issue.

 

[Art]

One item I didn't notice mentioned: Severe color blindness. A hamper for sure in performing electrical work.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

As for a marine electrician, I don't believe any certification is required, at least in FL, unlike his counterpart that works on your house. (but I'll stand corrected, if wrong).

You are correct, regrettably, and as incredible as it sounds, anyone can hang out a "marine electrician" shingle, which is why I frequently recommend, if you feel the need to call on a pro, make certain he or she is an ABYC Certified Marine Electrician. The electrical errors I encounter, made by both both DIYers as well as professionals, are nothing short of chilling. The former I expect, the latter are unconscionable.

I know there are ABYC naysayers among the membership, and I freely admit I have my share of issues with the organization, however the value of the Standards, especially those covering electrical systems, are undeniable. There are differences, some subtle and some significant, between residential/commercial and marine electrical systems that, if not well-understood, can lead to fire or electrocution. The most notable among these being the neutral to ground connection requirements.

One of the best, and most easily understood books on the subject is Charlie Wing's "Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook" 2nd ed. It's written in plain language with very good diagrams. I used this as a primary textbook to train marine electrician's apprentices.

Among other things, ABYC - American Boat Yacht Council - American Boat and Yacht Council is a resource for finding, and verifying those who claim to be ABYC certified technicians.