An interesting development

[JWellington]

I have found a bunch of the info interesting too, and all of it consistent with everything that I've said. Zero emissions in harbor while maneuvering on electric. That's nice, but it gets made up, plus some more once out of the harbor. Zero emissions at anchor. That's nice too, but it gets made up, plus some more once underway again. A short burst performance boost when needed, but no claim of it being more efficient. Only a vague claim of greater efficiency, but no context about when or under what circumstances, so it could be anything. It could be that while both propelling the boat and recharging batteries, the engine operates more efficiently than if propelling only. This is reasonably achievable, and would be a true statement. But it has been left to our imagination. What we know from the science is that any such gain is overwhelmed by other losses.


All that said, we have living proof that people still think this is holistically more efficient.

^^^^^^From a guy that doesnt accept any stats, nor any testimonies from customers, like fishing companies who say they save on fuel, no ctedibility.

 

[mvweebles]

Glad I didnt claim proof of anything. But one guy said he was impressed with info ne didntvknow before, from the German MAN company. Thus guys who dont know much about this topic mightvlike to learn what some other big companies are doing.

That would be me who thanked you for the MAN brochure. However, I must admit I had an ulterior motive. You see, you misrepresented what they said - MAN was silent on efficiency for pleasure craft.

But all this doesn't mean anything. You're the buyer and they have convinced you. Which boat are you going with? The converted long liner? Or Jimmy Cornells failed experiment sailboat?

In all seriousness, I had higher hopes for this thread. Have had to dig hard to extract decent information from it. I still believe there are acceptable use cases for hybrid/electric, and those use cases are more usable than expected (4-6 engine hour day trips). As TT himself said about his electric Smartcar, didn't have enough range to get to the dealer for repair. Now, 20 years later, people drive coast to coast (carefully) in Teslas.

Peter

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. A. Winner, winner chicken DINNER. Sheesh!

 

[Delfin]

Did you read the article about Jimmy Cornell's hybrid experience. He ran smack into the realities of physics. The boat proposed, designed, and built by "clever engineers" didn't perform as claimed. Not even close.

Uh no, he didn't.


I have no doubt that those who supplied systems to Cornell for Aventura Zero believed that their specs were accurate, but as he found out, they weren't, which I believe is one of the possibilities you have attempted to drum into a few thick skulls. In any case, if you can't make a sailboat into a "green" energy solution that actually works, you aren't going to on a power vessel. Unless, of course, you figure out how to eliminate friction and waste heat in energy generation, then you can daisy chain as many separate power generators as you like. Until then, if you're Woketard, or simply confused about thermodynamics, you can pretend otherwise.


https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/first-electric-boat-circumnavigation-on-hold-76722

 

[Northern Spy]

Longliners set their mainline and will drift with it for 12, maybe 18 hours before they haul. They tend to keep their distance and adjust their heading by using the main engine and a trolling valve on the reversing gear. I would guess this would be one of the energy savings of a hybrid boat.

 

[rslifkin]

Longliners set their mainline and will drift with it for 12, maybe 18 hours before they haul. They tend to keep their distance and adjust their heading by using the main engine and a trolling valve on the reversing gear. I would guess this would be one of the energy savings of a hybrid boat.

Yes, applications like that are likely to benefit from this tech far more than a typical cruiser.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Longliners set their mainline and will drift with it for 12, maybe 18 hours before they haul. They tend to keep their distance and adjust their heading by using the main engine and a trolling valve on the reversing gear. I would guess this would be one of the energy savings of a hybrid boat.

An excellent example of a good use case for hybrid. Another is Foss Towing's hybrid ship assist tugs. They have not put hybrid tugs into long distance towing. The same applies to long distance cruising. Once the voyage exceeds the endurance of the batteries the advantage of hybrid, if any, dissappears.

 

[Art]

Greetings,
Mr. A. Winner, winner chicken DINNER. Sheesh!

That's my dyslexia; strikes deeply into many levels!! I call it Alltimers disease...

Screwed my schooling before mind-bend conditions were understood and dealt with. Now I kinda enjoy it. Lets me see some things differently.

 

[Northern Spy]

Timely.

 

[backinblue]

That's my dyslexia; strikes deeply into many levels!! I call it Alltimers disease...

My wife calls it "Old-timers"

 

[Hippocampus]

Once the voyage exceeds the endurance of the batteries the advantage of hybrid, if any, dissappear-PB.
Respectfully disagree with this quote.

Here are some realities I think many others share.
Sometimes there’s no useful solar production.
Sometimes the wind is less than 10kts and there’s no useful wind generator production.
More weight means more energy required to move it.
More efficient hull less energy required to move it.
Acceleration requires more energy than constant speed. Coastal requires varying speed. Most passage days do not.
Electric motors weigh less than internal combustion for equivalent HP.
Electric motors require less servicing and don’t require consumables.

Given these assumptions boats divide into those that have access to a outside energy source (shore power) and those that don’t (passagemakers). Regardless of engineering advances there are insurmountable issues for pure solar for passagemakers. Regardless of battery energy density if no energy is coming in from solar/wind for a sufficient period of time you are dead in the water. This requires additional stores hence additional weight as passage will be longer due to those wasted days. Have had those days when in sail and they would also apply to pure electric. This further means risk of exposure to severe weather when power is required to mitigate risk. So even if you left a reserve in the batteries you would still incur risk.
Therefore I believe for the foreseeable future pure electric is not a viable option for passage making pleasure craft smaller than mega yacht size.
However the majority of days at sea are pleasant implying good solar and wind production. Propulsion with energy supplied by solar/wind would be adequate for house and propulsion needs. This thread seems to be focused on comparisons of efficiency. Believe this is a tree not a forest view and a forest view is more suitable to this discussion. Any miles gained from alt. energy are miles gained without internal combustion. Such miles decrease diesel hours hence need for service and extend years of engine life.
So for passage makers with current technologies parallel hybrid does make sense. However with certain caveats. The boat needs to be easily driven. So either multihulls or LDL mono hull. The boat needs to light. So each component system system needs to be judged by weight and efficiency. The hull needs to be light as well making grp and Fe less desirable. As you go larger hull weight is a lower %age of total weight so for pleasure boats hull weight is of importance.
In an effort to decrease weight parallel has some advantages. A lower HP engine and KW motor can be coupled as needed on occasions conditions require. Whereas each mechanism of propulsion can be employed independently as conditions allow. Each power train can be optimized.
From the owner/operator’s point of view looking at a boat operated by four on passage and 2 when coastal a cat of ~45’ or LDL mono of 58-67’ would provide sufficient payload and living area. The engine HP requirements could be met by twin simple Betas or JDs with the benefits of ease of service. Smaller electric motors would suffice. Such a efficient hull(s) at reasonable size would still allow sufficient space for a solar array supplemented by wind generators as to allow sufficient alt energy.
Here you are not violating any laws of physics. You are accepting to use each form of energy as is appropriate to the setting.
Pleasure boats are not trains. Neither are they cars. This past Thursday we test drove a R1T Rivian as we wait for delivery. It was striking it is mostly a one pedal vehicle. Regenerative braking is so marked once the batteries are less than 100% there’s virtually no need to use the brake pedal. However that technology has no applicability to boats so is irrelevant to this discussion. Boats do have one advantage. There’s much less need to accelerate and loading is more often constant. Even in various sea states and points of sail propulsive power required at a constant speed varies little. So gains can be made utilizing a variable pitch prop.
I can envision a parallel hybrid pleasure boat for $1-3m meeting all the needs of the average cruiser/passage maker. I see no issues with pure electric for coastal once the limitations of the need for hull efficiency are imposed. I don’t see the current offerings in SD or FD as being suitable for hybrid propulsion. I don’t see current offerings in pure electric as suitable for passage making but accept they are appropriate for coastal use.

 

[Mako]

Hippo, I definitely see advantages in space-savings going with pure diesel electric (or hybrid). The electric propulsion motors are small and can even be situated in a vertical position on top of the reduction gear. Two generators can be located aft.

So smaller engine room. More accommodation space for the same length boat, or slightly shorter boat for the same accommodations.

 

[backinblue]

Non-boating related question. I've never driven a purely EV and I understand the theory of regenerative braking, but I can't wrap my head around how that works in practice. I know that you can disable that feature in some driving modes but here's what I don't get. Some times you take your foot off the gas to coast, like downhill on a highway. I wouldn't want the car to think I need to brake and start slowing down. Sometimes I may coast to a stop or nearly so approaching a stop sign. Other times I need to stop faster. I'm sure that proximity sensors come into play, but it's hard for me to concive how the "one-pedal" approach works in practice. Not saying it doesn't just trying to better understand it.

On the other side of the equation, some cars like BMW employ a regenerative alternator that is smart in that it charges when decelerating and applying drag to the engine to assist braking, but not during acceleration. Also, in econo mode, when cruising on the highway and you take your foot of the gas it also seemlessly shifts into nuetral so you are purely coasting with no parisitic drag from the engine. As soon as you apply brakes or gas, it shifts into the appropriate gear imperceptively. Both of these play into better acceleration and MPG and less brake wear. Good engineering IMO even if the benefit is not huge.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[PierreR]

I will say this. Long skinny displacement hulls are by far the most efficient hulls. Until the government mandates that marinas charge by the beam width and not by the length are we likely to see much movement to electric. Bill Garden had a couple of designs that were long and skinny.

 

[rslifkin]

Non-boating related question. I've never driven a purely EV and I understand the theory of regenerative braking, but I can't wrap my head around how that works in practice. I know that you can disable that feature in some driving modes but here's what I don't get. Some times you take your foot off the gas to coast, like downhill on a highway. I wouldn't want the car to think I need to brake and start slowing down. Sometimes I may coast to a stop or nearly so approaching a stop sign. Other times I need to stop faster. I'm sure that proximity sensors come into play, but it's hard for me to concive how the "one-pedal" approach works in practice. Not saying it doesn't just trying to better understand it.

Most will apply just very light regen (if any) when you let off the gas, similar to the engine braking drag in a gasoline car. When you hit the brake pedal, it will increase the amount of regen based on your pedal input (and in some cars, it'll be regen only for light braking and only use the friction brakes once you ask for more than a certain amount of stopping power). So the brake pedal is effectively a blended brake controller, rather than just a direct control of pressure for the friction brakes. In practice, if the regen behavior is well programmed, it works pretty smoothly and seamlessly.


In a Prius, for example, the only way you get full regen without enough pressure on the brake pedal is to put the transmission selector in "B" mode instead of "Drive". Then it will go to full regen once you let completely off the gas pedal to allow holding speed down a hill, or to allow sort of a one pedal driving unless you need stronger braking.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks RS, that make a little more sense to me. Hertz is adding Teslas to their fleet so maybe I'll get to try one on an upcoming business trip.

 

[SteveK]

Years ago we bought a hybrid, it was OK around town.
During the process we took a test ride in a 100% EV. The salesman handed us a key fob, I sat in the car for a while and he came back and asked is anything wrong. I said I have this fob, nowhere on dash is a start button, how do you make it go. He laughed and said press the (er) gas pedal.
The presence of the fob and the car was ready to roll and it did, total silence.

 

[Hippocampus]

The R1T makes noise (there’s a noise generator) going slow to alert pedestrians but at speed it’s silent except for a small amount of wind noise.
Surprisingly after about 10 minutes you get use to one pedal driving. It becomes a non issue.
Getting on the highway it’s mind blowing. Torque and acceleration better than sport cars I’ve owned.
Unfortunately for our lifestyle we need the larger battery and a 50a level 2 charger. Yes annual cost of ownership will be less and I won’t miss the need for periodic service. But the downside is EVs are heavy and eat tires. Also initial costs (vehicle and charger/installation) are higher.

 

[twistedtree]

The R1T makes noise (there’s a noise generator) going slow to alert pedestrians but at speed it’s silent except for a small amount of wind noise.
Surprisingly after about 10 minutes you get use to one pedal driving. It becomes a non issue.
Getting on the highway it’s mind blowing. Torque and acceleration better than sport cars I’ve owned.
Unfortunately for our lifestyle we need the larger battery and a 50a level 2 charger. Yes annual cost of ownership will be less and I won’t miss the need for periodic service. But the downside is EVs are heavy and eat tires. Also initial costs (vehicle and charger/installation) are higher.

So does it operate like a hydrostatic transmission on a lawn tractor or similar? The more you push the peddle down the faster it goes, and when you let off, is slows/brakes. And if you take you foot off abruptly, it stops really, really fast?


A lot of ag and construction equipment works like that, but hydrostatic, not all electric.

 

[backinblue]

Hippo's comments about regenerative braking not applicable to boats and also that boats don't normally accelerate and stop often brings a couple random thoughts to mind, related or otherwise....

Sailboats with electric motors can regenerate some electricity from the spinning prop when sailing. Some eProp outboards have this feature. However, I suspect many sailors will not want the tradeoff of extra drag to generate electricity, but it is another way to harness some wind power.

Electric cars get better "mileage" in stop and go traffic than highway driving because of regenerative braking. Opposite compared to gas power and counter-intuitive. However, most driving tends to be local and not highway. This is a plus for most electric vehicles but a minus for boats where long duration at fixed speed is the model.

 

[Hippocampus]

B in my prior post I clearly said boats are not trains or cars or trucks. Regenerative braking is irrelevant to boats.
I have been on sailboats where the same device is used for wind driven and hydropower. Like motorsailors my impression was it did neither well. Yes you avoid freewheeling a prop with the inherent problems that entails. But with so much saragasso weed about its like dragging fish lines so you may be clearing the unit repetitively. However the hydro units that directly attach to the stern are less problematic and folks have told me work quite well with minimal impact on speed. Of course once again not applicable to powercraft. So for power we’re stuck with solar and wind generators.
Although apparent wind increases on both a sailboat and a power boat going to weather which does put wind generators into the wind speed where they’re actually making some output there’s no free lunch. Unlike sail where the sails are making the propulsive force for power engines or motors are responsible. For both going down wind decreases apparent wind and output. So the meaningful benefits of wind generators is mainly at rest or when it’s force 3 and above during clement days when there’s little solar production. Of course the other benefit is nighttime production. We lived with both solar and wind. Interestingly had the same experience as Fatty. Wind did best during the winter in the Caribbean and solar did the best in New England summers. Both length of day and wind strength contributed to those results.
Boats spend most of their time at rest. Most coastal trips are hops of less than 48h. Even with access to shore power we nearly never “plugged in”. Wind/solar was sufficient. The killer was AC. Unlike anchoring out when in a slip there seemed to be higher temperatures, less wind and more humidity. Only then was AC necessary. Would think house loads on a boat kept in a slip in FL or similar setting would need AC and neither solar nor wind or the combination would be sufficient. Perhaps alt energy could assume other loads in that situation but for present cost savings doesn’t seem to make it worthwhile. But digress as this thread is about propulsion. Here for new construction continue to believe electric has its place. Parallel hybrid for ocean and hybrid or pure electric for coastal

 

[Peter B]

I find this concept of regenerative braking in an EV rather fascinating, as it puts me in mind of the days long ago when I was a bit of a slot car fiend. Wow, it was amazing the braking power that one got when the controller was released, thereby reversing the polarity of the electric motor. I guess the regenerative braking in an EV is a bit similar, but without the reversing of polarity, which would be far too vicious in effect. I like the way the variable pressure on the brake pedal adjusts just how much this is tapped into. Huge benefits there to be tapped into, not only in battery recharge potential but the braking effect as well. I thought my present car might be my last. Now I may just start thinking about finding an excuse to get an EV. If only there was a massive breakthrough in the battery design..?

But diesel-electric in boats..? There has to be a place for that. Like a couple rotating electric powered pods, and you have the ultimate manoeuvrability..? If it's good enough for the QMII..? Or was that the new QEII..?

 

[BruceK]

Some members don`t have Wellington on Ignore. Extraordinary.
A boot was named after England`s Duke of Wellington. The Boot?? There`s a thought.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The R1T makes noise (there’s a noise generator) going slow to alert pedestrians but at speed it’s silent except for a small amount of wind noise.
Surprisingly after about 10 minutes you get use to one pedal driving. It becomes a non issue.
Getting on the highway it’s mind blowing. Torque and acceleration better than sport cars I’ve owned.
Unfortunately for our lifestyle we need the larger battery and a 50a level 2 charger. Yes annual cost of ownership will be less and I won’t miss the need for periodic service. But the downside is EVs are heavy and eat tires. Also initial costs (vehicle and charger/installation) are higher.

Battery life and cost of replacement?

 

[Hippocampus]

From their site
United States

The New Vehicle Limited Warranties include:

Comprehensive: The cost of all parts and labor necessary for any defective materials are covered for 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first
Battery Pack: Coverage includes all components inside the high-voltage battery and 70% or more of the battery capacity for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
Drivetrain: Coverage includes the drivetrain and components for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
Corrosion (perforation): Body panels that are perforated by corrosion will be covered for 8 years
A full list of warranty exceptions, exclusions and limitations is located in the Warranty Guide.

Price of replacement is unknown to me

 

[SteveK]

Hippo, that looks like the warranty of the hybrid we had about 2009. Five years later the battery was weaker, a year after selling we get a small cheque in the mail from a class action case as the batteries were not making it to the warranty period claimed. I may be off on this, $8K may be replacement cost

Wonder how many consumers keep things long enough to exercise a warranty claim.

 

[hollywood8118]

Hey Hollywood it’s an acquired taste like Lutefisk, Durian or pontoon boats.

So hairy pits taste like Lutefisk?
No thank you very much!!


HOLLYWOOD

 

[OldDan1943]

So hairy pits taste like Lutefisk?
No thank you very much!!


HOLLYWOOD

Hollywood, I do believe you have just insulted the Lutefisk.

 

[hollywood8118]

There is a good case for both the tender and the yacht going electric, as so many are. They are doing it because its a good idea, not a bad one.

No actually they are not doing it because it actually works.There doing it because it looks good. The only one that ever worked was the ultra light wave piercing cat with the tennis court sized solar array. The tech isnt there yet to be a true equal to diesel only. Diesel electric works in SOME applications but not the typical trawler.
Just cause you really want it to work NOW doesn't make it so.


Hollywood

 

[Steve DAntonio]

From their site
United States

The New Vehicle Limited Warranties include:

Comprehensive: The cost of all parts and labor necessary for any defective materials are covered for 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first
Battery Pack: Coverage includes all components inside the high-voltage battery and 70% or more of the battery capacity for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
Drivetrain: Coverage includes the drivetrain and components for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
Corrosion (perforation): Body panels that are perforated by corrosion will be covered for 8 years
A full list of warranty exceptions, exclusions and limitations is located in the Warranty Guide.

Price of replacement is unknown to me

I suspect it is substantial, which bears heavily on the vessel's resale value as it ages, and if you are second or third owner. This needs to be factored into both cars and boats with large LiIon banks.