guy with a boat
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Some stories are best enjoyed for their entertainment value. Accuracy of the details may be beside the point.
$ 650,000.00 Bottle of Rum
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Delta Riverat
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Yeah, I enjoy fiction too. That's why I read novels.
Airstream345
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Sometimes the seller is looking for a reason to blow up the deal.
SteveK
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Recalling surveyors when I was buying.
Each time the surveyor would give a verbal from notes taken and then take some days to send the prepared one after payment is received.
The buyer/broker is there and the seller is optional. If the seller is there too then hears the summary report. The seller may have heard something that got his blood boiling, then the buyer giggles and says let's have a drink from the bottle you left behind and is included in the sale. Straw that broke the camels back
Each time the surveyor would give a verbal from notes taken and then take some days to send the prepared one after payment is received.
The buyer/broker is there and the seller is optional. If the seller is there too then hears the summary report. The seller may have heard something that got his blood boiling, then the buyer giggles and says let's have a drink from the bottle you left behind and is included in the sale. Straw that broke the camels back
Damn I post an incident from a survey back on the late 80’s that is a ‘ true ‘ story and I check out the forum today and it’s turned into a big BS fairy tale “ fiction”. As expected there is one particular character, who indirectly envisions himself as the big dog dominator that is feeding and stirring the pot. Like many forums you ID these types, suck up a bit with your tail between your legs and you’re in otherwise you are an outsider. Well big dog has questioned my honesty and authenticity over and over. This character posts anything that fits his agenda regardless of whether there is any foundation or not. Nobody questions him so most just drift along responding to his accusations and comments without ever turning back the page to read the source. So be it I’m not here to change minds or pack loyalty I joined just to share my life working on boats.
Let me explain the surveying process since ‘big dog’ thinks he has it all figured out. I was trained starting back in 1981. I closed my boat shop and went to work for what was originally DeFever & Segerblom then turned into Bill Steel Inc. In Wilmington, CA. Large office with four surveyors, Naval Architect etc.. I apprenticed for four months no pay, then started surveying under Steel’s signature at 50% billing. It took one year to be accepted into the firm at 75% what I billed out. Rigorous, paperwork intensive and extremely strenuous for a new marriage.
So there are quite a few misconceptions and just wrong information about marine ‘ purchase surveys ‘. In my time I figured I probably performed somewhere around 2500 pre-purchase surveys or roughly 25% of my work history. I know how they are conducted and the rules and I can tell you some of you have it all wrong.
First of all there is no reason to exclude the seller from the survey in fact in many cases I like having the owner onboard. On bigger vessels with lots of history and systems it’s just handy to have the owner around to answer questions or ID some unmarked switch, an old capped thru-hull, locating manuals, spare parts, and get a feel for the vessel’s history. Plus a little light conversation and some questions gives a surveyor good insight into a sellers experience and maintenance. I’ve never knowingly worked a purchase survey where a broker deliberately kept both parties apart. Why would a competent experienced broker do that ? On some larger yachts there may be two brokers, a captain, buyer, sellers, a room full.
I was trained as were many legitimate surveyors of that era to survey the boat, take notes, then set down at the yard and write up the recommendations on NCR forms in triplicate. If something was forgotten or vague the boat was right there to answer. The training taught you to think, organize and write up recs and specs immediately and on site. Copy to the buyer, copy to the seller and one for the surveyor. These are only ‘ recommendations ‘ contrary to what Mr. Know-It-All thinks and not the survey report. They were written out in the standard Found - Recommend format.
The buyer and seller get their copy and everybody is asked if they fully understand the recs, and if needed I show them. I point out those safety and structural items and those more or less maintenance related items that cannot be termed bargaining chips. But when I leave everybody is aware of any safety or serious problems. Had the seller or representative not been there, or not been provided the recs, then he could be in jeopardy as could I. Grab a bad hose or dezinced thru-hull during the survey and the boat sinks without alerting the owner and well you get it. Nothing leaks on the hard. More than once I’ve halted a launch due to unsafe conditions and no owner to alert.m
It was customary on larger surveys upon completion and writing up the recommendations to set down and discuss findings between all parties. Explain any serious problems, answer questions then grab my clipboard and butt out. Many many times a bottle stashed onboard was opened for this occasion and all shook hands and had a drink. This was usually a happy day for all however my story just turned very weird. The marine surveyor has absolutely nothing to do with who attends or who doesn’t. I recall a surveyor, Peggy Slater, in SoCal who always showed up with her kit of chilled champagne and glasses. She wasn’t the only but she was certainly the most regular.
Most of the time I worked with very professional brokers who were associated with first class brokerages. These companies encourage open friendly transactions and quite often have lifelong customers who buy and sell many times over the years. Many times the seller and buyer are old customers, same YC or whatever but never kept apart like two fighting cocks.
Anyway we have one or two characters here that have their own idea of how a marine purchase surveys should be conducted and that I don’t. I still know a lot of surveyors both here in the states and offshore and thankfully they don’t conduct business like that. If the brokerage and yachting business has degraded so badly that buyers and sellers must act secretly then I’m glad I’m out
Rick
Let me explain the surveying process since ‘big dog’ thinks he has it all figured out. I was trained starting back in 1981. I closed my boat shop and went to work for what was originally DeFever & Segerblom then turned into Bill Steel Inc. In Wilmington, CA. Large office with four surveyors, Naval Architect etc.. I apprenticed for four months no pay, then started surveying under Steel’s signature at 50% billing. It took one year to be accepted into the firm at 75% what I billed out. Rigorous, paperwork intensive and extremely strenuous for a new marriage.
So there are quite a few misconceptions and just wrong information about marine ‘ purchase surveys ‘. In my time I figured I probably performed somewhere around 2500 pre-purchase surveys or roughly 25% of my work history. I know how they are conducted and the rules and I can tell you some of you have it all wrong.
First of all there is no reason to exclude the seller from the survey in fact in many cases I like having the owner onboard. On bigger vessels with lots of history and systems it’s just handy to have the owner around to answer questions or ID some unmarked switch, an old capped thru-hull, locating manuals, spare parts, and get a feel for the vessel’s history. Plus a little light conversation and some questions gives a surveyor good insight into a sellers experience and maintenance. I’ve never knowingly worked a purchase survey where a broker deliberately kept both parties apart. Why would a competent experienced broker do that ? On some larger yachts there may be two brokers, a captain, buyer, sellers, a room full.
I was trained as were many legitimate surveyors of that era to survey the boat, take notes, then set down at the yard and write up the recommendations on NCR forms in triplicate. If something was forgotten or vague the boat was right there to answer. The training taught you to think, organize and write up recs and specs immediately and on site. Copy to the buyer, copy to the seller and one for the surveyor. These are only ‘ recommendations ‘ contrary to what Mr. Know-It-All thinks and not the survey report. They were written out in the standard Found - Recommend format.
The buyer and seller get their copy and everybody is asked if they fully understand the recs, and if needed I show them. I point out those safety and structural items and those more or less maintenance related items that cannot be termed bargaining chips. But when I leave everybody is aware of any safety or serious problems. Had the seller or representative not been there, or not been provided the recs, then he could be in jeopardy as could I. Grab a bad hose or dezinced thru-hull during the survey and the boat sinks without alerting the owner and well you get it. Nothing leaks on the hard. More than once I’ve halted a launch due to unsafe conditions and no owner to alert.m
It was customary on larger surveys upon completion and writing up the recommendations to set down and discuss findings between all parties. Explain any serious problems, answer questions then grab my clipboard and butt out. Many many times a bottle stashed onboard was opened for this occasion and all shook hands and had a drink. This was usually a happy day for all however my story just turned very weird. The marine surveyor has absolutely nothing to do with who attends or who doesn’t. I recall a surveyor, Peggy Slater, in SoCal who always showed up with her kit of chilled champagne and glasses. She wasn’t the only but she was certainly the most regular.
Most of the time I worked with very professional brokers who were associated with first class brokerages. These companies encourage open friendly transactions and quite often have lifelong customers who buy and sell many times over the years. Many times the seller and buyer are old customers, same YC or whatever but never kept apart like two fighting cocks.
Anyway we have one or two characters here that have their own idea of how a marine purchase surveys should be conducted and that I don’t. I still know a lot of surveyors both here in the states and offshore and thankfully they don’t conduct business like that. If the brokerage and yachting business has degraded so badly that buyers and sellers must act secretly then I’m glad I’m out
Rick
Listen folks this was a incident that took place around 1989-90 and you can certainly juice up the facts with all kinds of theories about the rum, the buyer and sellers mind set or background or the brokers skills but as far as I’m concerned it’s all unfounded and nothing directly associated with my post. But then there are these posts and once again this character crosses the line with a combination of backhanded invective and the inability to comprehend the written word.
“ Gotta ask Rick, what was the thinking here? Obviously, ton of potential downside. I see near zero upside to an audience of your client and those who's interests are unaligned with his or her interests “
You apparently view the entire yacht selling experience as adversarial and therefore secrecy is paramount. I’m afraid this may say more about your mindset and/or buying experience. Read my previous post on how surveys were done.
“ There is a reason brokers keep buyers and sellers apart. Why they were together during a surveyor readout is the part that doesn't make sense. There is no universe where that's a good idea. I'm surprised the broker facilitated the group readout; surprised the surveyor participated in it. Surveyors sole responsibility is to the buyer, not the broker and certainly not the seller “
What is the reason a broker keeps buyers and sellers apart ? Is there some secret that the broker is hiding. Is it more about the brokers level of comfort or inability to handle the deal or what. Having the recommendations in hand facilitates any bargaining, allows the parties to bring in the yard for a quote if necessary but more than that puts it all on the table, sans values, so there are no surprises later.
“ The transaction sequence doesn't make sense. Short 1-day survey immediately followed by big reveal of survey that day,, then celebrate the sale - all within the same day. Swan 65, not a small and inexpensive boat, the owner of a boat like that is not a rube.
This character has problems with reading comprehension. I thought I explained in the original post that;
“ Sails were already shipped to the sailmaker for inspection and the underbody and engine survey were conducted earlier showing no issues at all.”
Fact is it was a long two day survey plus 450 miles on the road.
So I have to wonder where or how does big dog come up with a “ short one day survey “ ? You make this crap up and before you know it others just jump in a row with you. Nobody goes back to see if there is any truth to this rubbish.
“ Polemics aside, has anyone ever participated in a boat transaction that even remotely resembles this cadence? Seems like everyone got what they deserved. Sounded like a survey and readout to me - no way to know what negotiations had transpired beforehand. But who knows. Maybe literary license. “
The internet is about the only place where a character like this can throw out slander and intemperate remarks like this and so far never even be questioned or warned.
Just for the record. The broker is a very well respected guy with thousands of miles of offshore racing and delivery work. I don’t think I ever surveyed anything under $250-300,00.00 ( 1978-85 dollars ) and never heard a bad word on his dealings.
The Swan sold about four month later to a couple in Bermuda. I surveyed another Swan for the seller about a year later in St. Lucia. 1987 Swan 53
The bottle of rum was left onboard thinking the seller, his buddy/navigator, buyers and broker would have a drink after signing the sales contract. Nobody ever explained what went wrong, not to me anyway but none of my business. Seller was a nice enough man, a bit gruff, but only surface gruff, with many years of sailing with guys like Sonny Neff and some others in the Sparkman Stephens NY office. Something set him off. Just not sure what sets off big dog
Rick
“ Gotta ask Rick, what was the thinking here? Obviously, ton of potential downside. I see near zero upside to an audience of your client and those who's interests are unaligned with his or her interests “
You apparently view the entire yacht selling experience as adversarial and therefore secrecy is paramount. I’m afraid this may say more about your mindset and/or buying experience. Read my previous post on how surveys were done.
“ There is a reason brokers keep buyers and sellers apart. Why they were together during a surveyor readout is the part that doesn't make sense. There is no universe where that's a good idea. I'm surprised the broker facilitated the group readout; surprised the surveyor participated in it. Surveyors sole responsibility is to the buyer, not the broker and certainly not the seller “
What is the reason a broker keeps buyers and sellers apart ? Is there some secret that the broker is hiding. Is it more about the brokers level of comfort or inability to handle the deal or what. Having the recommendations in hand facilitates any bargaining, allows the parties to bring in the yard for a quote if necessary but more than that puts it all on the table, sans values, so there are no surprises later.
“ The transaction sequence doesn't make sense. Short 1-day survey immediately followed by big reveal of survey that day,, then celebrate the sale - all within the same day. Swan 65, not a small and inexpensive boat, the owner of a boat like that is not a rube.
This character has problems with reading comprehension. I thought I explained in the original post that;
“ Sails were already shipped to the sailmaker for inspection and the underbody and engine survey were conducted earlier showing no issues at all.”
Fact is it was a long two day survey plus 450 miles on the road.
So I have to wonder where or how does big dog come up with a “ short one day survey “ ? You make this crap up and before you know it others just jump in a row with you. Nobody goes back to see if there is any truth to this rubbish.
“ Polemics aside, has anyone ever participated in a boat transaction that even remotely resembles this cadence? Seems like everyone got what they deserved. Sounded like a survey and readout to me - no way to know what negotiations had transpired beforehand. But who knows. Maybe literary license. “
The internet is about the only place where a character like this can throw out slander and intemperate remarks like this and so far never even be questioned or warned.
Just for the record. The broker is a very well respected guy with thousands of miles of offshore racing and delivery work. I don’t think I ever surveyed anything under $250-300,00.00 ( 1978-85 dollars ) and never heard a bad word on his dealings.
The Swan sold about four month later to a couple in Bermuda. I surveyed another Swan for the seller about a year later in St. Lucia. 1987 Swan 53
The bottle of rum was left onboard thinking the seller, his buddy/navigator, buyers and broker would have a drink after signing the sales contract. Nobody ever explained what went wrong, not to me anyway but none of my business. Seller was a nice enough man, a bit gruff, but only surface gruff, with many years of sailing with guys like Sonny Neff and some others in the Sparkman Stephens NY office. Something set him off. Just not sure what sets off big dog
Rick
kthoennes
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Well, I enjoyed the story Rick and got a good chuckle out of it. My father was a broker for bigger boats for a while and he's got good stories too. And I even found the last couple posts of yours interesting for additional background, but heck, it's the 'net. Can't get too worked up about anything. I figured it was just initially posted as an amusing story, but of course some readers are going to analyze. I still think if anybody's going to spike a $650K deal, it ought to be for something better than rum, even high end. A really good bourbon maybe.
mvweebles
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Rick, I’ll leave aside all the noise and just get to the point that spurred me to write. You see, there are a lot of newbies on here and sometimes some really bad advice comes along that I feel should be addressed. Your story about a surveyor who convenes a conference with buyer, seller, and broker to output results of a fresh survey is, in my opinion, really bad advice. That doesn't mean a buyer shouldn't share a survey with a seller, but it should be their decision when and how to do so, not the expert who's advice they have paid for. I would be stunned if this was considered a best-practice by anyone, let alone SAMS/NAMS, the accrediting bodies for many Surveyors (perhaps you are accredited)
We've crossed paths before when a newbie found a 50-year old wood boat that looked great in pictures with a fire-sale price. Along with others, I advised strongly to be ultra-cautious with wood - even provided pictures. For whatever reason, you seem to think wood should be considered an equal of fiberglass. A lot of marinas and boatyards differ with you. Heck, there's an active thread right now where a guy who really wants a wood GB42 can't find a yard to haul, can't find a marina to slip. Exactly the types of cautions I and others issued. I felt it was really bad advice for newbies to hear so I called you out. They can make their own decision about what to believe.
Rick, you have entertaining stories. But when they include what I believe is bad advice, I'll call them out. Not being adversarial. Just being respectful to the troves of folks who come to TF seeking knowledge.
Peter
We've crossed paths before when a newbie found a 50-year old wood boat that looked great in pictures with a fire-sale price. Along with others, I advised strongly to be ultra-cautious with wood - even provided pictures. For whatever reason, you seem to think wood should be considered an equal of fiberglass. A lot of marinas and boatyards differ with you. Heck, there's an active thread right now where a guy who really wants a wood GB42 can't find a yard to haul, can't find a marina to slip. Exactly the types of cautions I and others issued. I felt it was really bad advice for newbies to hear so I called you out. They can make their own decision about what to believe.
Rick, you have entertaining stories. But when they include what I believe is bad advice, I'll call them out. Not being adversarial. Just being respectful to the troves of folks who come to TF seeking knowledge.
Peter
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Delta Riverat
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Well, maybe that's how they did it 45 years ago when things were well 45 years younger.
Listen .you honestly don’t know what you’re talking about so I’d suggest stop. You’re digging holes and stepping into them. I’m honestly starting to feel a bit sorry for you as I don’t think you really know where your going or what you’re saying.
So I apprenticed and learned the business from Bill Steel formerly Defever & Segerblom, as mentioned before. Steel was Regional VP West Coast for NAMS and head of several committees. Do you think his crew was actually working in violation of NAMS Ethics Codes ?
Is there somebody feeding you this BS that you trust or are you the author ?
NAMS: https://www.namsglobal.org/code-of-ethics
SAMS: https://www.marinesurvey.org/ethics/
As the reader can see there is absolutely NO VIOLATION of ethics on sharing recommendations with all interested parties. Call NAMS or SAMS and ask. I don’t get it why putting the recommendations on the table is such an ethical violation unless of course the mouthpiece doesn’t understand what they entail. You just don’t have the experience or depth to recite what is or isn’t allowable in the Marine Surveying field. Fact is I believe you have only a partial understanding of what the job is and that is becoming more and more obvious. You can talk all you want but I’m tired and not about to waste more time with a dub like you.
Rick
So I apprenticed and learned the business from Bill Steel formerly Defever & Segerblom, as mentioned before. Steel was Regional VP West Coast for NAMS and head of several committees. Do you think his crew was actually working in violation of NAMS Ethics Codes ?
Is there somebody feeding you this BS that you trust or are you the author ?
NAMS: https://www.namsglobal.org/code-of-ethics
SAMS: https://www.marinesurvey.org/ethics/
As the reader can see there is absolutely NO VIOLATION of ethics on sharing recommendations with all interested parties. Call NAMS or SAMS and ask. I don’t get it why putting the recommendations on the table is such an ethical violation unless of course the mouthpiece doesn’t understand what they entail. You just don’t have the experience or depth to recite what is or isn’t allowable in the Marine Surveying field. Fact is I believe you have only a partial understanding of what the job is and that is becoming more and more obvious. You can talk all you want but I’m tired and not about to waste more time with a dub like you.
Rick
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I think you just nailed it Delta. I know when I bought my boat way back in 2002, It was perfectly natural for the owner/seller to be present at the survey. Heck, he had to bring her in off a swing mooring, onto the travel-lift, then off to a temporary berth to complete it all. Naturally the surveyor gave a bit of a commentary as he completed the survey. I think both the seller and I benefitted equally.
There was a lot wrong, but much of it fixable without too much expense. On the basis of that, both seller and myself came to a convivial and mutual modest lowering of the price, and the deal was done. All happy.
But that was then. Today, with all this obsession with privacy, legality, hidden fish-hooks, fraud and deceit, things are probably a bit different.
guy with a boat
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Rick, its probably a good idea to take a breath and relax about this.
Peter is a very knowledgeable and reasonable guy, and nothing he said has been off base.
I won't pretend to know the ethics code of the survey business but I do know business, and I know its a bad idea to have that conversation with the seller and buyer together. I don't think that is the fault of the surveyor, and I don't have a problem with you complying with a request from your client to do that. Best practice for a broker and for a buyer is to get that survey information directly and privately, and then decide how best to proceed and how much of that info to share with the seller.
Ethics debates aside, stuff can go wrong when the whole group is in the conversation and your story is one example of that. That deal likely would have closed had the broker and buyer not had that meeting with seller included. Its your story, you saw the deal blow up, and yet you still resist the idea that the meeting was a bad idea.
I've never surveyed a single boat but I have been involved in thousands of large purchase and sale transactions over many years. From that basis and from having bought and sold several boats, I also share the consensus opinion that what you describe as normal is not, in my experience, normal or advisable.
Its also worth keeping in mind that this is the internet. You tell a story or ask a question and you get the responses that you get. Don't get insulted; its just a conversation.
Peter is a very knowledgeable and reasonable guy, and nothing he said has been off base.
I won't pretend to know the ethics code of the survey business but I do know business, and I know its a bad idea to have that conversation with the seller and buyer together. I don't think that is the fault of the surveyor, and I don't have a problem with you complying with a request from your client to do that. Best practice for a broker and for a buyer is to get that survey information directly and privately, and then decide how best to proceed and how much of that info to share with the seller.
Ethics debates aside, stuff can go wrong when the whole group is in the conversation and your story is one example of that. That deal likely would have closed had the broker and buyer not had that meeting with seller included. Its your story, you saw the deal blow up, and yet you still resist the idea that the meeting was a bad idea.
I've never surveyed a single boat but I have been involved in thousands of large purchase and sale transactions over many years. From that basis and from having bought and sold several boats, I also share the consensus opinion that what you describe as normal is not, in my experience, normal or advisable.
Its also worth keeping in mind that this is the internet. You tell a story or ask a question and you get the responses that you get. Don't get insulted; its just a conversation.
mvweebles
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No issue with seller being present at the survey as long as he/she doesn't interfere with dialogue between buyer and his advisor - the surveyor. My issue is surveyor sharing the survey with the seller - totally out-of-bounds.
Surveys generally have a lot of information to digest. Sometimes there are many small things that combined become a big thing. Sometimes things are noted as an asterisk that need additional due diligence. It's up to the buyer to sort it out and figure out what to do with the info. Get quotes. Confer with spouse. Perhaps buyer does nothing, perhaps they do something. Perhaps walk-away. It's inappropriate and unprofessional to put your client on-the-spot with a big-reveal audience that includes the person on the other side of the negotiation receiving the same information at the same time.
But that wasn't the only injured party - the surveyor's action deprived the broker from managing their client, the seller. An important part of the broker's job is how to present defects to the seller in a way that doesn't cause a bad reaction (Exhibit 1: The Story). The broker often has inside knowledge about what the seller already knows, what are hot-buttons, what his/her expectation might be. That conversation is best in private too, not in an audience that includes the other guy (buyer).
I bought my first large boat - a Uniflite 42 - in 1991 in Newport Beach CA. Buyer (me) hired a surveyor to inspect and evaluate the boat so I could make an informed purchase decision. In no world is it the surveyor's job to assist the seller make informed selling decision, the bottom line on giving him the same info at the same time.
This isn't even a close call. This would be the same as an accountant advising his client on tax issues in the presence of an IRS agent.
Peter
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mvweebles
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You have a contractual relationship with the buyer - no one else. Unless the buyer permits, it is unprofessional (at least), perhaps unethical. Rick, for sake of argument, let's say you've surveyed 1-1/4 boats each workday for 40-years (math: in Post #35, you said 2500 pre-purchase inspections; 25% of your business - 220 workdays/year). That makes you a surveyor, not a negotiator. I spent the last 20-years as a buy-side advisor for large IT outsourcing deals - a deal guy and negotiation lead for IT Transformations up to $7B total contract value. I can safely say I would have been fired on-the-spot if I pulled a stunt like trying to give the other side the same information my client had paid for.
Bears repeating:
Peter
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Pete, with all due respect, I think you are over-thinking the item in today's terms, and being a bit pedantic regarding what was acceptable 45 years ago. Just sayin'...
BruceK
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mvweebles is right that the surveyor reports to his client the buyer, who decides whether to share some or all of it with the seller.
In this case, do we know whether the buyer gave consent, actual or implied, to the sharing? It seems to have happened without buyer protest.
It seems the sharing of the surveyors informal report did no harm to the transaction vis a vis the buyer, who was desperate to celebrate the transaction proceeding, albeit with the sellers liquor.
I suspect what others have said, the buyers insistence,and maybe behavior, was "the straw which broke the camel`s back".
From my experience, some surveyors see the survey process, seller present, as a softening up opportunity, thus inserting themselves, inappropriately imo, into the sales/negotiation/price reduction process. That said, I don`t read the OP as having done that.
In this case, do we know whether the buyer gave consent, actual or implied, to the sharing? It seems to have happened without buyer protest.
It seems the sharing of the surveyors informal report did no harm to the transaction vis a vis the buyer, who was desperate to celebrate the transaction proceeding, albeit with the sellers liquor.
I suspect what others have said, the buyers insistence,and maybe behavior, was "the straw which broke the camel`s back".
From my experience, some surveyors see the survey process, seller present, as a softening up opportunity, thus inserting themselves, inappropriately imo, into the sales/negotiation/price reduction process. That said, I don`t read the OP as having done that.
Delta Riverat
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My broker advised that I could buy the previous mechanical survey from the surveyor if I wanted. Yeah, we read through it together, but he would not copy and said I could pay $500 if I wanted a copy.
Yeah, the surveyor reports to the buyer (or the person who purchased the service) and no one else.
Yeah, the surveyor reports to the buyer (or the person who purchased the service) and no one else.
Mr. Garbler:
It took me several years on Trawler forum to finally get this place - it's a public forum, comprised of uniquely different people. It's been fun to see the personalities behind the names develop over the years.
There have been times I've gotten hot under the collar because of someone's post. I found that if I write up a response in Word (not on the forum) first, and then wait a day, I usually manage to laugh at my annoyance and understand that this forum means something to me, so a certain decorum and acceptance is necessary.
That said, Peter (Mr. Weebles) is one of the most well-respected and decent gentlemen on this forum, because he is intelligent, safety-conscious, unafraid to share his boating mistakes, and thoughtful. Please don't take offense; he is truly well-intended.
Peter (like me) was not aware of the unknown factor, that your very interesting anecdote was one from the old days. Forty years ago there were far fewer people who were interested in purchasing a $650k boat. If you had originally mentioned the age of your anecdote, it probably would have made quite a difference in the reaction.
I find it fascinating (in a cognitively dissonant sort of way), that by posting about a seller who took offense at a seemingly minor factor, the turn this thread has taken is now reflecting your anecdote. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. We all share one thing: nothing else in life compares to messing around on boats.
Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley
It took me several years on Trawler forum to finally get this place - it's a public forum, comprised of uniquely different people. It's been fun to see the personalities behind the names develop over the years.
There have been times I've gotten hot under the collar because of someone's post. I found that if I write up a response in Word (not on the forum) first, and then wait a day, I usually manage to laugh at my annoyance and understand that this forum means something to me, so a certain decorum and acceptance is necessary.
That said, Peter (Mr. Weebles) is one of the most well-respected and decent gentlemen on this forum, because he is intelligent, safety-conscious, unafraid to share his boating mistakes, and thoughtful. Please don't take offense; he is truly well-intended.
Peter (like me) was not aware of the unknown factor, that your very interesting anecdote was one from the old days. Forty years ago there were far fewer people who were interested in purchasing a $650k boat. If you had originally mentioned the age of your anecdote, it probably would have made quite a difference in the reaction.
I find it fascinating (in a cognitively dissonant sort of way), that by posting about a seller who took offense at a seemingly minor factor, the turn this thread has taken is now reflecting your anecdote. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. We all share one thing: nothing else in life compares to messing around on boats.
Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley
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---Quote (Originally by MacPhid)---
When I see a topic thread start to go into the weeds, I like to go back and re-read the original post to see what I missed or misinterpreted before I post a comment.
Having done just that, I see it as a story that happened years ago (no surveyor would likely post a current transaction) with the Broker being in control of the transaction inviting both seller and purchaser to be there during final survey. I suspect he was anxious to get pen to paper to seal the deal! Surveyor from my read simply gave a quick summary that there were no gotchas to hinder the purchase and that the deal was essentially completed to both purchaser and sellers satisfaction until the celebratory drink was brought up. At no time did the surveyor provide the survey to either party, just a summary of any issues. I can't see a lot of fault with the surveyor's actions here.
Perhaps in todays market the parties involved would be more forthcoming (demanding) but back then I don't think it would have been as big an issue. I think I would put the blame mainly on the broker.
Just my take on it
James
---End Quote---
James, I think you nailed it. The BROKER was in charge, Rick didn't control the events. He did what the Broker directed. No survey was given to the Seller, with or without the Buyer's consent. Heck, the formal Survey hadn't even been WRITTEN yet!
Rick was doing what the Broker (as an assumption on my part) what the Buyer's wishes were.
The next pre-purchase we have (assuming we buy another boat) I would LOVE to have a Surveyor with Rick (Garbler's) expertise. Even after searching high and low, and asking members here for references, we ended up with a . . . . . well, just let me say the attention to detail on the part of the surveyor who surveyed our vessel left a lot to be desired . . .
When I see a topic thread start to go into the weeds, I like to go back and re-read the original post to see what I missed or misinterpreted before I post a comment.
Having done just that, I see it as a story that happened years ago (no surveyor would likely post a current transaction) with the Broker being in control of the transaction inviting both seller and purchaser to be there during final survey. I suspect he was anxious to get pen to paper to seal the deal! Surveyor from my read simply gave a quick summary that there were no gotchas to hinder the purchase and that the deal was essentially completed to both purchaser and sellers satisfaction until the celebratory drink was brought up. At no time did the surveyor provide the survey to either party, just a summary of any issues. I can't see a lot of fault with the surveyor's actions here.
Perhaps in todays market the parties involved would be more forthcoming (demanding) but back then I don't think it would have been as big an issue. I think I would put the blame mainly on the broker.
Just my take on it
James
---End Quote---
James, I think you nailed it. The BROKER was in charge, Rick didn't control the events. He did what the Broker directed. No survey was given to the Seller, with or without the Buyer's consent. Heck, the formal Survey hadn't even been WRITTEN yet!
Rick was doing what the Broker (as an assumption on my part) what the Buyer's wishes were.
The next pre-purchase we have (assuming we buy another boat) I would LOVE to have a Surveyor with Rick (Garbler's) expertise. Even after searching high and low, and asking members here for references, we ended up with a . . . . . well, just let me say the attention to detail on the part of the surveyor who surveyed our vessel left a lot to be desired . . .
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Geez, this has blown up. Unfortunately the brevity of forum posts doesn't lend itself well to grey area or details. But let's be honest..
I've been on the boat during a survey as both buyer and seller. I've also not been able to be on the vessel for both surveys and sea trials as both the buyer and the seller. Sometimes schedules don't work out the way you'd like.
Whenever the buyer and seller are both on the boat during the survey, the verbal summary has been given to both the buyer and the seller. The written survey, which typically comes 24 - 48 hrs later is sent to the buyer (who paid for it) only.
Here is where the surveyor has no obligation to share the survey with the seller. The buyer typically shares the summary page. Otherwise it becomes a he said/she said over the results of the survey. The buyer wants something addressed, but the seller has the right to some proof of the issue in question. Otherwise you risk a seller making outrageous claims.
Now, during that verbal summary of the survey results, the offer is still just a signed Offer and they haven't closed on the deal. Money and title have not been exchanged.
So certainly an odd time to celebrate what is merely the conclusion of the survey process.
It was an interesting story and worth the read.
I've been on the boat during a survey as both buyer and seller. I've also not been able to be on the vessel for both surveys and sea trials as both the buyer and the seller. Sometimes schedules don't work out the way you'd like.
Whenever the buyer and seller are both on the boat during the survey, the verbal summary has been given to both the buyer and the seller. The written survey, which typically comes 24 - 48 hrs later is sent to the buyer (who paid for it) only.
Here is where the surveyor has no obligation to share the survey with the seller. The buyer typically shares the summary page. Otherwise it becomes a he said/she said over the results of the survey. The buyer wants something addressed, but the seller has the right to some proof of the issue in question. Otherwise you risk a seller making outrageous claims.
Now, during that verbal summary of the survey results, the offer is still just a signed Offer and they haven't closed on the deal. Money and title have not been exchanged.
So certainly an odd time to celebrate what is merely the conclusion of the survey process.
It was an interesting story and worth the read.
Steamguy
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Could be a reason...
A little research reveals this: Matusalem was once based in Cuba, but following the Castro revolution, it moved to the Dominican Republic. COULD IT BE that the bottle in the liquor cabinet was a old Cuban bottle, Pre-Castro, and therefore priceless to the right aficionado?
Just saying.
Steamguy
A little research reveals this: Matusalem was once based in Cuba, but following the Castro revolution, it moved to the Dominican Republic. COULD IT BE that the bottle in the liquor cabinet was a old Cuban bottle, Pre-Castro, and therefore priceless to the right aficionado?
Just saying.
Steamguy
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One can only hope.
BruceK
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I guess due to antiquity some of the actors are gone but seems a shame no one reports on sampling the rum.
kthoennes
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Seems like they only sell a 23 year old now, can't find a 25, but this site sells it for a mere $45: https://www.totalwine.com/spirits/rum/aged-rum/matusalem-gran-reserva-23-year/p/181726750 But then given the date of the original story - 45 years ago, 25 year old bottle = somewhere around 1953? Smack in the time period of the Cuban revolution, so assuming Matusalem was still operating in Cuba when the bottle in the story was produced, maybe that rum was far more valuable.
backinblue
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But I thought we agreed....It's not about the rum!
No offense here folks but just going back and reading the original post and some a bit later will clarify a lot of this. Matusalem was the original popular rum of Cuba. The event I talked about was roughly 35 years ago not 45. In the 70’s and 80’s Cuba was shipping ( I mean in waterborne ships wood cases of rum with cocunut straw packaging ) to Russia and the Eastern Bloc.. I was on Turks when one hit a reef spilling hundreds of cases many of which floated gingerly to the beaches.
It still amazes me that I can post a true story, in about six replies everybody is jumping to and responding to one characters false allegations and the original post is buried and apparently never reviewed again to check for accuracy. Some say it’s the nature of these forums but I suspect there is more to it.
It still amazes me that I can post a true story, in about six replies everybody is jumping to and responding to one characters false allegations and the original post is buried and apparently never reviewed again to check for accuracy. Some say it’s the nature of these forums but I suspect there is more to it.
mvweebles
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About $20 USD at Costco in Ensenada. Maybe not the legendary stuff, but damn fine rum. Whattya say we hoist a virtual dram, bury the hatchet, and move on?
Good to see you back Rick. Your contributions are welcomed
Peter
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I like rum, Cheers!
MacPhid
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See post 49, that's exactly what I said, review before posting!
(Unfortunately my original post was a casualty of the server crash)
James
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Relax, it's a forum. Nobody is calling your baby ugly here. People chat. Try not to make more out of it than it is.
