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Old 12-14-2018, 11:38 AM   #21
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Note that the product didn't come from Amazon. That's why the reviewer had to pay postage.

As a side not, this customer clearly likes to return items. Amazon has a return rate between 5 and 15% on most products. However, that rate is nearly 30% on clothing, shoes and jewelry. Unfortunately, customers expect everyone to allow you to return anything. Brick and Mortar is more like 2-3% returns. Returns are a huge threat to profitability of online business.
Good, then bricks and mortar businesses will be better able to compete.
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:22 PM   #22
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Good, then bricks and mortar businesses will be better able to compete.
We believe that a combination is ultimately going to be the best working solution. Walmart is juggling a balance to find the right combination and augment the brick and mortar sales. In apparel, we have customers who order online but typically they've already shopped with us and when you do order online the order goes to a sales person in the store who pulls your order and communicates with you by email or phone. The convenience of online and the service of a store.

Amazon was built on service, but they just can't provide it anymore. Their answer is, if you complain, give you a $20 credit or something. They're working very hard on brick and mortar concepts.

Some products are perfect for online. Books were, CD's are. Staples like laundry detergent and paper towels are but the shipping is expensive to deal with. Grocery shopping online works well, but no one has figured out how to absorb the cost or charge for it. We want things for free and don't want to pay for added services. Free Shipping is the mind boggling trend. We know it's not free. Amazon Prime charges the annual fee plus has higher prices, but then they'll ship it free. Now it's pay me $14.99 per month and I'll deliver all your groceries for free....well, almost...you should still tip.

I think apparel is a lousy online product. Clothes don't look the same on you as they did in a picture. They often don't fit. What percentage of people shoe shopping, love the first and only pair they try on? I've tried to order shoes online because of my size not being widely stocked, but I returned two out of four pairs and not really thrilled with a third pair. Furniture sales online surprise me. Then one product I was completely wrong on. I thought by now all phones would be sold online. I think Sprint, Verizon and AT&T thought that at times. However, phone stores remain extremely successful. People want to buy, get it set up, and walk out with it working.

I believe in brick and mortar but it must adapt. Also, businesses must examine and question what they're doing carefully. Now that Signet Jewelers own Kays, Jareds, Zales, Peoples, and more they're concluding that many malls no longer make sense and that stand alone Jewelry stores work well. People go to buy jewelry, don't purchase it on impulse because they see it when walking by. Ross, TJ Maxx and Marshalls figured out early that they could be across the street from the mall at half the cost and do very well. While Location, Location, Location has always been preached, companies are redefining what it means. I'd say roughly 40-50% of the malls are worth paying their rent. Now, the malls looking good today are working hard to create an experience by adding entertainment and amenities.

There's also a lot of turmoil that the manufacturers are going through right now. Sell on Amazon or not? If so, how to price? If you discount it online to a rate stores can't afford to sell, they you won't keep store business.

Amazon's profits are not coming from things they're selling today. Coming from Prime, coming from what they charge third party sellers, coming from their Cloud.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:50 PM   #23
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Hey guys CURE the problem instead of trying rectifying it with snake oil additives.
Clean your fuel tanks, if you've got a drain plug then put a tap/valve on it, hold a clear glass jar/bottle below it and 'crack' the (open the valve slightly) valve until clean fuel runs out. Do this once a month and you'll have no trouble.
No drain valve ? Get yourself a wet & dry vacuum cleaner, remove the fuel level gauge sender, insert the long extension vacuum pipe right down to the bottom of the tank and suck up any dirt/water, problem solved.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:17 AM   #24
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"Clean your fuel tanks, if you've got a drain plug then put a tap/valve on it, hold a clear glass jar/bottle below it and 'crack' the (open the valve slightly) valve until clean fuel runs out. Do this once a month and you'll have no trouble."

We have folks with dead batts because they did not did not bother to add water, from month to month, or year to year!

While its true draining some gunk from the bottom of box for fuel would improve fuel quality in the tank , what percentage of folks might bother ?

Some might, when re commissioning a winter stored boat , the rest may just hope new filters will solve the problem.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:23 AM   #25
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FF Its beyond me to understand why someone would invest money and buy a boat, (or anything else) and not bother with simple maintenance. I guess their money comes too easy.
Maybe I'm too particular but to my way of thinking if you have a problem fix the root cause of the problem instead of wasting money constantly fixing symptoms.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:12 PM   #26
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"to my way of thinking if you have a problem fix the root cause of the problem instead of wasting money constantly fixing symptoms."

Agree , but most boats come with a box for fuel, instead of a functioning marine fuel tank.

WAY too many boat bucks to actually cure , so the search is on for what will work , a total boat rebuild is usually out.

The need --clean fuel--is usually good enough.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:29 PM   #27
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How common is it that vessels are dead in the water because they don't have a dedicated "polisher" nor use a magic elixir? I don't see them.

Half a century ago when fuel was really bad, two and three stage filtering became common. Then fuel got better due to sulfur dropping more than 100 fold. Now with really clean fuel marketing and paranoia are at work it would seem trying to convince us the world is ending.

Me thinks IR rambler is dead on about cleaning tanks. if your boat is older you likely got some very high sulfur and asphaltine laden fuel. My sources say tank cleaning on newer vessels show little crap in comparison to a few decades ago.

By all means throw in a filter or two when your transferring fuel. If you want to call it polishing that is OK too. But watch the tanks for crap and clean accordingly
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:21 PM   #28
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Without water in a fuel tank you can have no biological life (usually bacteria). A simple means of extracting water, a well with a drain, or a stripper tube, the latter can be added after the fact, I've installed them on many tanks, will eliminate the need for a biocide. No water no biological life, no biological life means no biocides are needed.

I wouldn't dream if using an additive that attacked aluminum. Among other things, primary and secondary fuel filter housings and injection pump bodies are aluminum.

My advice is to use additives to target specific issues, and choose additives based on what they can do. Those that claim to do everything, including clean a dirty tank, are suspect at best. I've cleaned or supervised the cleaning of scores of diesel tanks, the accumulated crud on tank bottoms almost always has to be scooped or shoveled out, see the photos in the article link below. Additives simply cannot remove this material.

Lubricity additives make sense because these are often added at the fuel distribution rack, and errors occur. Stabilizers and cetane boosters also make sense. However, I remain deeply skeptical of the one stop fixes it all solutions.

Two part article additives: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/d...itives-part-i/ and https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/d...tives-part-ii/

Tank cleaning: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/c...-diesel-tanks/

A properly designed and installed polishing system with sufficient volume can keep fuel and a tank clean. A polishing system can't clean a tank with years of accumulated debris, nor can dockside fuel cleaning services unless they access all baffled chambers of a tank. Otherwise they are simply filtering the fuel, which has value in its own right, just don't expect it to clean the tank too, again unless the tank is fully accessed.
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:24 PM   #29
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Had a friend that got a load of Bio(soy) Diesel when up in the midwest. Evidently it that dissolved all the sludge in his tank while underway but he went thru a case of Primary Bulk head filters
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Old 12-18-2018, 02:06 AM   #30
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Hi one and all,

Polishing - a subject i have written about many times, so may I add my twp cents-worth?

Remember that your engines are probably the best polishing systems and are already on board. Excess fuel drawn by the engine fuel pumps will have already been filtered before being returned to the tanks.

Real polishing is where any water, diesel bug and debris that's settled on the bottom of a tank is removed. This takes knowledgeable pipe installation and powerful pumping to stir everything up before being drawn off, filtered and returned, polished. BTW, a centrifuge filter is by far the best but many use Racor filters.

Hence, the method of piping and the power of the pump are absolutely crucial and often overlooked by the sellers and installers of polishing systems.

To be effective, you want the outflow from the polisher to be powerful and aimed at the bottom of the tank to create a real stir. The draw should be about halfway up the tank.

Given time, all the muck your engines and common polishing systems you can buy cannot reach, will have been polished.
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Old 12-18-2018, 02:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by FF View Post
"Clean your fuel tanks, if you've got a drain plug then put a tap/valve on it, hold a clear glass jar/bottle below it and 'crack' the (open the valve slightly) valve until clean fuel runs out. Do this once a month and you'll have no trouble."
....While its true draining some gunk from the bottom of box for fuel would improve fuel quality in the tank , what percentage of folks might bother?...
Brisboy was bothering to replace his fuel tank plugs with valves, to do just that. Wonder how it went?
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:37 AM   #32
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Here are the ingredients as said by the MSDS. You could probably source the ingredients to make a lifetime batch for not much money.
Attached Thumbnails
diesel treatment forumla.png  
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Old 12-18-2018, 10:43 AM   #33
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Hi one and all,

Polishing - a subject i have written about many times, so may I add my twp cents-worth?

Remember that your engines are probably the best polishing systems and are already on board. Excess fuel drawn by the engine fuel pumps will have already been filtered before being returned to the tanks.

Real polishing is where any water, diesel bug and debris that's settled on the bottom of a tank is removed. This takes knowledgeable pipe installation and powerful pumping to stir everything up before being drawn off, filtered and returned, polished. BTW, a centrifuge filter is by far the best but many use Racor filters.

Hence, the method of piping and the power of the pump are absolutely crucial and often overlooked by the sellers and installers of polishing systems.

To be effective, you want the outflow from the polisher to be powerful and aimed at the bottom of the tank to create a real stir. The draw should be about halfway up the tank.

Given time, all the muck your engines and common polishing systems you can buy cannot reach, will have been polished.
From experience, I respectfully disagree. What you describe would be a system that can only polish the fuel if the tanks are at least half full, which doesn't seem terribly effective.

And for big tanks, and I'm thinking of a 750 gallon wing tank I recently inspected, their length, supporting gussets, etc. would prevent stirring up any muck effectively with a single nozzle, where ever it was placed. Far easier is to do a serious polishing when the tanks are near empty and you are bashing around in a bit of a sea. Before that, the occasional polishing of a tank that has more fuel in it removes the asphaltine that is starting to precipitate out. The decade old aforementioned tank that has had a lot of fuel passed through it and has been polished as described had about 2 quarts of murky fuel, zero water, and zero deposits on the sidewalls. The pump moves 3gpm, which with a tank 10' long, isn't going to stir up much muck, but will very effectively clean the fuel of managed as described
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Old 12-18-2018, 11:01 AM   #34
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Without water in a fuel tank you can have no biological life (usually bacteria). A simple means of extracting water, a well with a drain, or a stripper tube, the latter can be added after the fact, I've installed them on many tanks, will eliminate the need for a biocide. No water no biological life, no biological life means no biocides are needed.

I wouldn't dream if using an additive that attacked aluminum. Among other things, primary and secondary fuel filter housings and injection pump bodies are aluminum.

My advice is to use additives to target specific issues, and choose additives based on what they can do. Those that claim to do everything, including clean a dirty tank, are suspect at best. I've cleaned or supervised the cleaning of scores of diesel tanks, the accumulated crud on tank bottoms almost always has to be scooped or shoveled out, see the photos in the article link below. Additives simply cannot remove this material.

Lubricity additives make sense because these are often added at the fuel distribution rack, and errors occur. Stabilizers and cetane boosters also make sense. However, I remain deeply skeptical of the one stop fixes it all solutions.

Two part article additives: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/d...itives-part-i/ and https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/d...tives-part-ii/

Tank cleaning: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/c...-diesel-tanks/

A properly designed and installed polishing system with sufficient volume can keep fuel and a tank clean. A polishing system can't clean a tank with years of accumulated debris, nor can dockside fuel cleaning services unless they access all baffled chambers of a tank. Otherwise they are simply filtering the fuel, which has value in its own right, just don't expect it to clean the tank too, again unless the tank is fully accessed.
Given the observation that 40% of fuel sold doesn't meet the lubricity standards specified by the manufacturers, adding one seems like a a highly recommended preventative. The testing of lubricity conducted on all major brands I referenced above helped clear some of the smoke and mirrors around the subject for me. Funny that some additives actually reduced lubricity....
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:22 PM   #35
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There are a number of additives that claim to reduce fuel consumption by 5% or more. I found that by using 20 of them, I had to stop every couple of days and pump the excess fuel out of the tank or it would overflow.
This made me laugh...thanks! ;-)
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Old 12-18-2018, 05:43 PM   #36
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That's really smart. If your fuel sets for any length of time, you'll be breeding organisms in your tank. Probably gaining water, too.
.
Our boat had near enough 1000 gallons of diesel in it when we got her
The then owner had probably done 100 miles in the ten years he had her and the diesel was discoloured so I guess it was old diesel.

We drained a few litres out of the crud sump and had zero water or crud and used the existing filters for a year with no increase in vacuum.
Two years down the track, still check the crud sump monthly and no water or crud.

I put a lot of our result down to deck fillers not being in the deck to leak but high up in the cabin side.

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Also Jay Leno's Garage has a video on Archoil.
Do you reckon he has a vested interest in touting the stuff he sells?
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Old 12-19-2018, 03:37 AM   #37
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From experience, I respectfully disagree. What you describe would be a system that can only polish the fuel if the tanks are at least half full, which doesn't seem terribly effective.

And for big tanks, and I'm thinking of a 750 gallon wing tank I recently inspected, their length, supporting gussets, etc. would prevent stirring up any muck effectively with a single nozzle, where ever it was placed. Far easier is to do a serious polishing when the tanks are near empty and you are bashing around in a bit of a sea. Before that, the occasional polishing of a tank that has more fuel in it removes the asphaltine that is starting to precipitate out. The decade old aforementioned tank that has had a lot of fuel passed through it and has been polished as described had about 2 quarts of murky fuel, zero water, and zero deposits on the sidewalls. The pump moves 3gpm, which with a tank 10' long, isn't going to stir up much muck, but will very effectively clean the fuel of managed as described
Hi Delfin, your comments are well received. Yes, I'm referring to large larger fuel tanks such as those on Play d'eau; yes, tank baffles can be a problem making piping a challenge; and yes, keeping tanks full is crucial not only to allow effective polishing but to reduce the potential of condensation during our winters. On our side of the Atlantic, the main issue faced is from diesel bug. As you know, this grows on the interface between the natural suspension of water in diesel and the fuel itself. Couple this with the increasing amount of bio-fuel being sold with its guaranteed water content, it becomes a nightmare.

So anti-bacterial additives are the absolute norm. I've never found bug in tanks treated properly.
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Old 12-19-2018, 12:57 PM   #38
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In the first place, a fuel polishing system is pretty much a waste of money, if you do not start with clean tanks. It cannot clean the tanks, especially if there are multiple baffles in the tanks. Your Racor filter and the secondary on the engine should be sufficient to protect your engine(s) if you change them regularly.
After reading about this product, I'm thinking it may be nothing more than alcohol. At best it is probably 'snake oil' as mentioned above, and at worst would provide the user with a false sense of security and cause engine damage from thinking it is doing something it is not.
I'd suggest sticking with the tried and true additives like Biobor or what we use, Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment.
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:00 PM   #39
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In the first place, a fuel polishing system is pretty much a waste of money, if you do not start with clean tanks. It cannot clean the tanks, especially if there are multiple baffles in the tanks.
Blanket statements on just about any subject tend to be wrong, as this one is.
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Old 12-19-2018, 01:30 PM   #40
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“I'd suggest sticking with the tried and true additives like Biobor or what we use, Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment.”

Tried and true according to who? No offense intended. Just wondering.
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