BruceK
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Lithium/Tesla Battery Fire
- Thread starter BruceK
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
sean9c
Guru
That's a big battery
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BruceK
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It`s intended to supply a community "when the wind don`t blow and the sun don`t shine". Alternate to running a big extension cord to the next State which has a more broad based supply. I think they are Tesla`s biggest batts, built to order, there is at least one other, this one looks like it`s toast.
The roof fans look to be to cool it, but....
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Crash and burn seems to be an integral part of Elon's modus operandi. His rockets have done it, and his cars have done it. Good luck to anyone who puts a Tesla powerwall in a boat. Now LiFePO4, that's different story entirely.
twistedtree
Guru
Agreed. And that's why you don't want anything other than LFP in a house bank on a boat.
Happily, Tesla shares are up more than $10 this AM. Go figure...
I know of no instance where an orbital space system has had zero failures during development.
Space travel still carries risk; only yesterday the Russian lab module at the ISS narrowly avoided
causing a disaster. I would prefer to get there via Spacex.
Tesla cars have a good safety record, certainly no more dangerous than carrying 20 gallons
of gasoline at 80 MPH.
Powerwalls are not designed or engineered for mobile or marine applications, AFAIK.
If they were and they matched the application I would have no hesitation using one.
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Alaskaflyer
Guru
For readers who don’t understand the reference.
Tesla batteries for now are lithium ion, similar to what are in most consumer electronics nowadays.
LiFePO4 or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are considered more stable and less prone to, well, self ignition, use less rare metals, and apples to apples have more service cycles. There’s some performance disadvantages compared to lithium ion also.
Much more but that’s the basics.
Tesla batteries for now are lithium ion, similar to what are in most consumer electronics nowadays.
LiFePO4 or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are considered more stable and less prone to, well, self ignition, use less rare metals, and apples to apples have more service cycles. There’s some performance disadvantages compared to lithium ion also.
Much more but that’s the basics.
twistedtree
Guru
Sorry to nit pick, but Lithium Ion is a pretty broad term that's applicable to many different lithium ion based chemistries. LiFePO4 (LFP for short) is one such variant, and is Lithium Ion just as the Tesla and other types are. But the different type do vary quite a bit, and in important ways, especially for a boater.
Saying Lithium Ion is a bit like saying lead-acid. You can further break down types of lead-acid batteries into flooded, AGM, gel cells, thin plate pure lead, carbon foam, etc. Each has it's own characteristics.
Tesla batteries I think are LCO which it Lithium Cobalt Oxide. Portable electronics and power tools are often NMC which is Lithium Nickle Magnisium Cobalt Oxide. And there are a bunch of others, including LFP. LFP is different in that it doesn't take off and burn uncontrollably like all the other variants. The biggest fire hazard it typically the plastic case. That makes it much safer in the confines of a boat where you can't simply pull over and step away from the burning car.
That said, when things go wrong, any battery is likely to release all of it's stored energy, and that alone can be a sobering thing, whether it's lead acid, lithium ion, or anything else. But also no different than a tank of fuel releasing all it's stored energy
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BruceK
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Great discussion. The likely loss of the battery on fire could deprive a local community of electricity supply for several hours. A massive loss.
Alaskaflyer
Guru
Currently they use lithium-nickel-cobalt-aluminum. They are leaping into low or no cobalt formulations for the near future.
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South Australia was the first state to take Elon up on a promise of being able to provide a huge bank within 100 days. From here... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-19/sa-big-battery-set-to-get-even-bigger/11716784
In 19/11/2019, Tesla boss Elon Musk flew to Adelaide to announce the battery's construction with then-premier Jay Weatherill, after promising to build it in 100 days or build it for free, following a Twitter exchange with Australian tech billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes. They made it in time, I believe..!
In 19/11/2019, Tesla boss Elon Musk flew to Adelaide to announce the battery's construction with then-premier Jay Weatherill, after promising to build it in 100 days or build it for free, following a Twitter exchange with Australian tech billionaire Mike Cannon-Brookes. They made it in time, I believe..!
twistedtree
Guru
Thanks for correcting. It looks like the short hand for that is NCA.
For portable devices, including cars, size and weight are critical, and that drives them to the more volatile, but higher power density formulations. That's not such a big deal in a house bank, making LFP with it's lower power density and lower volatility and good choice.
twistedtree
Guru
They do, in varying degrees. The individual bunkers in this installation serve as a fire break, and it looks like the fire was limited to that bunker.
The trade off is that the more fired breaks you install the fewer cells will burn up if one gets going, but also the more space you dedicate to fire brakes instead of stored power. So you have to pick a balance. I don't know what's inside each bunker, but apparently it's not enough to contain a fire.
