My life as a warning to you...

[STB]

Hi all,

So, two years ago, I bought a boat with two recently rebuilt motors with just a small few down hours on them -- and no paperwork on the rebuild.

One I observed start and run fine at the slip, the other tried to smoke put the whole marine. It was an amazing sight. The seller claimed it was new and still needed to break in, but I knew the problem was injectors, injector pump, or timing.

After a tangled many month long negotiation, incding me walking once (generator was no-op due to damage at installation, but being sold as "new"), I bought the boat.

It was surveyed and mechanically inspected before I walked, but I could not be there due to work. I canceled oil samples due to walking, but the mechanical inspector wrote a report singing the engines' praises

I got the smoking problem corrected. I eventually got the paperwork for the rebuilds! The PO had a machine shop do most of the rebuild, but put the gears, including one that dues injection timing, himself -- and was off by 2 teeth on that auxiliary gear.

On the other motor, I found that a single station oil pressure sender was being used on a dual station setup -- leading the gauges to read double the oil pressure. My inspector apparently just read and recorded the gauges rather than using his own mechanical gauge. No one noticed the wiring problem.

For two years, I tried, begged, and pleaded to get a mechanic to jack the engine and replace the pump -- and relief valve. The response was a chorus that 15lbs hot (45lbs cold) was plenty and that the bearing gap was probably just large after the shaft was polished for the rebuild (they make oversized bearings for that). No one wanted to lift an engine.

Finally I found a mechanic who would do the job (even though he didn't think it was a problem), but I got put off and delayed for 1.5 years. When we finally lifted the engine to plastigauge the clearances and swap the pump and relief valve, metal bits were found in the sump. We were too late.

The motor seemed to run fine. No smoke. Fast start. Made RPM, even under load. No unusual noise. But terminal at 111 hours SMOH.

I now have a new engine an am back underway...but learned some lessons...

- I needed to be there for the survey and inspection.
- I should have trusted what I knew to be true about the engines rather than letting mechanics suspend reality and excuse it, no matter how many did (likely just because it was a pain job). I should have bought or rented an A frame and done the job myself, if needed be.
- I should have done oil samples, even if not for negotiation. I got lucky. I could have lost that engine at a worse time, e.g. underway, and oik samples may have warned me.

I'd say I should have done the oil samples, before buying, but they'd likely have been good at that time and the price at which I bought the boat included a huge allowance for it being a project boat, was sold "as is", and I only got the price ai did because the owner was leaving the country the next week and needed it sold -- so he couldn't delay for oil samples or another round of inspections.

At any rate, mad props to S&W Diesel (310-835-3155) and Diesel Injection Service (310-200-9056) for providing a ton of tech support for the repower, even though they didnt sell me the reman engine or fuel components (S&W needed more lead time than I wanted to wait and another dealer had one on the shelf, and the new engine came with its own injection components). Also to DNA Marine (727-934-6300) who did the amazing magic to get the engines out and in, and to Pitman Yacht Service (727-942-1495) for coming in when they were closed for the holiday to splash me in time for my family to enjoy it on the boat.

The good news is I've got a new engine installed and am back to boating!

 

[O C Diver]

Sorry to hear about your issues. One of the takeaways I hear over and over again is the failure of rebuilt engines by lesser rebuilders. I've come to the conclusion that the success of an engine rebuild has a lot to do with meticulously following procedures precisely. From stories on TF and elsewhere, it just seems like a significant percentage of the lower end of the rebuilder industry cut corners to reduce costs.

It seems that you get the quality you pay for and put lots of hours quickly on a rebuild while there is a warranty.

Ted

 

[ktdtx]

Also interesting to me how important maintenance records are in evaluating a boat when you are the buyer and then how many sellers have such crappy or non-existent records.


Glad you are seeing the "sunshine" after your experience.

 

[Seevee]

Sorry to hear about your issues. One of the takeaways I hear over and over again is the failure of rebuilt engines by lesser rebuilders. I've come to the conclusion that the success of an engine rebuild has a lot to do with meticulously following procedures precisely. From stories on TF and elsewhere, it just seems like a significant percentage of the lower end of the rebuilder industry cut corners to reduce costs.

It seems that you get the quality you pay for and put lots of hours quickly on a rebuild while there is a warranty.

Ted

SO TRUE! Long ago, I would accept an engine OH from a no name shop or mechanic, not any more. 100% of those prematurely failed. And that's for boats and planes.



Today, if I can't do it WITH my mechanic, I'll order from the manufacturer.


Glad things are back to normal for the OP.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Your letter demonstrates how costly, time consuming and expensive troubleshooting can be.

pete

 

[BandB]

A couple of general comments, not addressed to the OP as he's learned already.

1. There are rebuilds and rebuilds. Complete, partial and half-a... I would only consider a manufacturer's rebuild or a complete rebuild by a certified manufacturer's dealer/yard. Oh, and someone has no paperwork on a rebuild, one did not take place, plain and simple. If you spend the money for a real rebuild, you sure have paperwork.

2. We talk about calendar and not to boat on a schedule. Well, rushed schedules are not good at any part of the process. They lead to short cuts. Someone says good only today or I'm leaving the country tomorrow or don't have time for this, that's a huge red flag and don't fall in the trap. The guy is leaving the country, something tells me the day he's gone, the price drops even more.

3. Tying in with the "if it sounds too good to be true, it is" I toss in "if one thing is untrue, everything is." The first lie from a seller (and this was sprinkled with so many) then assume everything they've said is a lie. At that point assume there are no engines, no generator, and price and pay based on that assumption. I think, unknowingly perhaps, the OP really did. Now all has been replaced and all is well. The value of an unknown engine is zero, actually less as it may have to be removed.

4. Once you've made the deal, forget what happened, forget the deal. Time to move on and do whatever it takes to get on the water and happy. Here is where OP has excelled. Hooked up with helpful, qualified people. No longer matters what he was told about engine. Now has legitimate rebuild and ready to go. You can't fix the past. You can't correct past mistakes. Live in the present and move on.

 

[Comodave]

We bought a boat many years ago that had a rebuilt engine. The PO sold it because the engine ran like crap. I took it to our marine mechanic. He watched it run and said that they put an automotive cam in it instead of the marine cam so the firing order was set incorrectly. He looked up the automotive firing order and reran the spark plug leads, problem solved. It ran fine then. The rebuilder did car and truck engines and didn’t know about marine cams. It ran fine until we sold it the next year and bought a bigger boat.

 

[STB]

I didn't get the paperwork until after I bought the boat, but I did get it. The machine shop work was done by a totally legit shop, I've got records showing the block was magnafluxed, etc. In this particular case I don't think that was the issue.

Where the PO seems to have gone wrong was that he did the "easy" parts of the final assembly himself. Nothing that required measurement, tuning or adjustment, just assembly. In doing that, he made small mistakes that would have been easy to fix-- but got buried in parts of the engine that were hard to access once installed. And, he didn't have the experience to know perfect from "close" when he did whatever inital bench test he did. And, so, the mistakes got buried and the rationalization and excuses began.

I went right in that I bought a ~$75k boat for ~$30k, allowing for me to fix everything. Even if I'd needed two engines, they'd have been in my "whole cost to buy" budget. The engines were priced in -- at the seller's expense. Whatever he saved at the time he gave back 10x at sale. So, I went right in that I did buy the boat as if the genset and both engines needed to go -- and won by an engine and a genset.

I also went right, I think, in replacing the engine rather than cleaning it up, fixing the problem, and putting it back in service. Seemingly running well or not that metal came from somewhere. That bill would have eventually come due, with my luck half way between here and the islands.

Where I went really wrong, I think, was in not getting what I *knew* needed done done. The root of the problem (pump, relief valve, idler gear, clog, pickup or supply tube connection leak) needed to be corrected, or the bearing gap theory, which always seemed unlikely to me, needed to be proven by plastiguage.

One week turned to the next, one month turned to the next, the reassurances from mechanics piled on and the needed work kept getting delayed by the only mechanic I could find who would do it (the engine lift wasn't easy).

We probably touched base about it 2x per week for 2 years. He
Kept putting it off to fix commercial customers and boats that were out of service. He didn't want to get bogged down in buried elective work when somenine had an acute problem. I get it. But, well, without PM maintenance becomes out of service.

Interestingly enough, the folks at S&W and TAD were the only ones to inject reality. Neither told me not to use not to use boat until it was fixed, but they did tell me it needed to be fixed orbunderstood and I needed eyes on the gauges every second until it was. They each raised and reinforced the possibility of a bigger problem than what I was expecting to find.

Had I managed it right, I'd have been $40k ahead on the boat. Now, I am $20k ahead. And, total reality, more like $10k ahead. That's more like an every day "urgent sale meets right buyer" than a true bargain for the time I have into it, but it is what it is.

So, what to say, whether or not I had the money built into the deal...mismanagement still cost me $15k-$20k (bills still coming in).

 

[KnotYet]

Your experience with S&W Marine matches mine.
I was lucky to discover them early on during the 15 years I had my last boat.
What a good company to have on your side!

 

[Seevee]

Where is S&W Marine? Search shows more than one.

 

[STB]

Hey Seevee,

Wilmington, CA (Greater Los Angeles/Long Beach area)

S&W Diesel
310-835-3155
336 Lakme Ave, Wilmington, CA 90744
Info@swdieselinc.com

They are old school family business. They have hired some eCommerce company and are working with them to set up an eCommerce storefront. But, for now, the best thing is to call (or drop by). Email works, but with more latency.

 

[STB]

Your experience with S&W Marine matches mine.
I was lucky to discover them early on during the 15 years I had my last boat.
What a good company to have on your side!

Not sure who you knew there, but the founder, Don, still shows up for work every day, work boots on. His daughter and son in law manage the business these days. Many of the mechanics have been around ages. Chris is still there, etc.

I can't wait for their storefront for small parts -- but glad for the humans and old school way of caring.

I bought my engine from someone else, configured differently, yet they were the ones sending photos and advising on what to move and what to keep.

The other folks were also a knowledgeable legacy Perkins dealer, not too far away, actually, but just didn't have their acts together to be responsive and I was fighting a hard deadline with the yard closing for the holiday.

Scott went right back to the shop, took pictures of variations of parts, sent instructions for my mechanic, ensured it got done and ran right, and then just wished me a Merry Christmas.

They easily could have just told me they didn't know how the engine I bought was configured, had never seen my old engine, and that I should call the folks who built the new engine

 

[jleonard]

Even the shops with an excellent reputation can screw up and engine rebuild.
Case in point, several years ago a friend of mine was repowering a 79 Mainship model II and bought a used Perkins range 4 at 240 to replace a tired old Perkins 160.
He contracted TAD to do the rebuild and said do what it tales to rebuild this engine. That was February when he shipped the engine to them from Mass.
Got back in June, had it pu in the boat and could not get it running. A friend and I went to help him and after scratching our heads we realized the TAD did the fuel plumbing incorrectly at the filters. They had it backwards.
So we got that fixed and the remaining 2 months the engine ran fine.
Next spring on the second or third trip the engine died.
Broken crankshaft at about 70 hours.
TAD blamed it on a the owner saying the original harmonic balancer failed and he did not specify to TAD that he wanted a new one.
BS I say to that. They did not call him and say anything when they rebuilt it. He trusted them to do it correctly.
TAD fixed it for a reduced price, but he once again lost half of a season.

(btw broken crankshafts are not uncommon with rebuilt Perkins diesels at low hours. I know of 5 of them thru my experience with old (vintage) Mainships. TAD should have known this).

 

[ljk]

Diesel engine rebuilders

Sorry to hear about your issues. One of the takeaways I hear over and over again is the failure of rebuilt engines by lesser rebuilders. I've come to the conclusion that the success of an engine rebuild has a lot to do with meticulously following procedures precisely. From stories on TF and elsewhere, it just seems like a significant percentage of the lower end of the rebuilder industry cut corners to reduce costs.

It seems that you get the quality you pay for and put lots of hours quickly on a rebuild while there is a warranty.

Ted

Can you, or any others of our brain trust, name a few of the good rebuilders?

 

[Art]

2008 - Our Tolly came with starboard engine full rebuild [had eaten an exhaust valve]. Port engine full top end rebuild [to make sure it doesn't eat a valve]. Port trany full rebuild [cooling water leaked into trans fluid].

Luckily I'd for decades known the rebuilders and knew their capabilities. For 13 yrs now everything runs sweet!

IMO - It's not just rebuild papers that are important, but also, knowing the rebuilder's expertise level and track record too.

I've had other engines rebuilt over the decades. Only one I made a mistake on. Had a high school auto mechanic teacher who I knew do the build. When I got it back it was just not right - at all. At first he refused to admit it was wrong enough to necessitate another build. Then I found out his students had used my engine as a training item. End result was he did a second build... # 2 build came out OK!