ZF85A Fluid Results from Survey

[mml2112]

Got the results back and the tranny has elevated water, sodium, iron, lead and copper among other things. Mechanic recommends changing ATF and fluid/filter and running it for 20 hours and resampling. I would like to complete purchase of the MS 400 now.

I doubt the owner will have time to put the 20 hours on after a fluid change on seller's dime.

I am thinking to hold back $10K, have fluid and filter changed and running it 40 hours to my home port then sampling again. If fluid tests OK and mechanic at home is satisfied, give seller his $10K back. If still bad, rebuild ZF with the $10K.

Thoughts please?

 

[twistedtree]

With high water and sodium, you have sea water in the oil. At a minimum I would have the oil cooler pressure tested, and you do it, not the seller, though you could agree that the seller pays for it. If the cooler is clearly leaking between the sea water and oil sides, then replace it. If the cooler isn't leaking through that path, then the question is where the salt water came from.


Is there any possibility that this boat got swamped in one of the hurricanes over the past years? High bilge water is the only other way I can think of for sea water to get into the gear box. Are there ER and laz electrical things that have been recently replaced? I would specifically ask the sell if there has ever been high water in the ER, and do it via email so there is a record of their response.



So I think best case it needs a new gear cooler, and there won't be any ongoing damage to the gear. But you are taking all the risk on future gear damage. Worse case the boat got flooded to some extent and that's where the sea water came from. In that case I would assume the gear is toast, and I'd be VERY skeptical of everything on the boat at or below the gear, and possibly higher because you don't know how high the water went.

 

[mml2112]

Seller states the transmission cover was off and some water and likely salt got washed in. He is amenable to changing fluid and filter and holding back in case there are issues with it.

 

[twistedtree]

Seller states the transmission cover was off and some water and likely salt got washed in. He is amenable to changing fluid and filter and holding back in case there are issues with it.

OK, and why was the cover off? It would only be off if there was a problem? And why was salt water washing around in the vicinity?


I think I would approach it assuming that the gear will need to be replaced at some point on your dime. Maybe not right away, but at some point. Final price should take this into consideration as you see fit.


But my bigger concern would be that the boat experienced some casualty and there is more (possibly lots more) equipment at risk of near term failure.

 

[O C Diver]

I agree with TT on the analysis. Would add that the lead is generally bearing material and iron is probably from the gears. My recommendation would be to change the transmission cooler, fluid and filter. Run it for an hour (drive the boat around) and then change the fluid and filter again. Doing the above will remove the most metal from the entire system in the shortest time period. If there is a filter on the transmission, I would open it up to see how much metal is inside.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Are there any other indications of water in the boat? Any high water marks? If there was water in the engine room high enough to cover the transmission then what about any wiring?

 

[twistedtree]

With the hurricanes over the past few years, I'd be real concerned that this boat went swimming in a way it's not designed to do. I would mostly want to confirm that is DEFINITELY not the case. It's a very different boat and a very different risk profile if it got wet.


There are also aspects of the story that absolutely need to be clarified. I'm repeating myself, but why was the trans cover off? That would only be off if there was a problem. What was the problem, what was found, what was done, how long ago, got receipts, who did the work (then go talk to them), etc. This is a red flag. Then how did it get salt water into it when the cover was off? That doesn't make sense either and needs explaining. When was this, how did it get water in it, and what was done afterwards


My thinking/assumptions would be


1) This boat got swamped or sank until convinced otherwise. Where has it been, where was it when the various hurricanes hit, and a point blank question to the seller about whether there has even been flooding higher than the bilge pump. Also, is there evidence of other equipment having been replaced due to water damage.


2) If (and only if) I could be convinced that it wasn't swamped or sunk, then I would assume I will need to replace that transmission. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but during my ownership. And I would seek price adjustment accordingly. $10k sounds light to me for a gear remove, crate and ship, rebuild, crate and return ship, replace, align, and sea trial. I could see $10k just in labor for R&R, with rebuild and shipping costs on top of that.

 

[sunchaser]

As well stated by others, something is strange here. At best the transmission heat exchanger failed with salt water then entering transmission. Then a backyard mechanic removed the transmission cover to establish damage from noisy gears. At worst there are more issues in this where is as is situation.

During your sea trial (you did one right?) what else did your on board mechanic and surveyor find regarding below par care and maintenance. As example when was the after cooler last pulled and serviced?

There is a recent long thread on TF regarding key areas to be checked during a survey and sea trial. That thread is a good read.

 

[tiltrider1]

I agree, story does not make sense. What is a transmission cover and why would it be off? Even if my transmission was exposed there is no salt water sloshing around my engine room.

The facts aren’t adding up. I would tell the broker if the complete and full story does not come forth then a reduction in price will be required.

 

[Bacchus]

I tend to agree w TT and others here that something doesn't smell right and worthy of a large dose of caution, investigation if the boat is otherwise attractive and really something you want to put time & effort into investigating. Or is it just priced low for that year/model? If I couldn't convince myself sellers story is true based on detective work I'd walk

Where is the boat located? (Possible tie in to recent hurricane?)
Can owner provide evidence on where it was moored / stored in recent years?
Can you verify w the marina, yard, etc that boat was there and not compromised?
Can seller provide insurer for recent years so you can check recent claim history
Invoices for recent work (especially tranny plate removal / inspection)?
Balance of maint records ( to determine if seller even does PMs)?
Paid background check?

 

[mml2112]

Seller states the cover was off to change the transmission filter. While the cover was off for several days, water entered the transmission from a hose (I think). He states this is the source of the water and sodium.

Seller is going to have a mechanic change the fluid and filter. I hope to get photos of the tranny while open and accessible. Also I will retain the existing filter for analysis. Seller agrees to additional $2K ($7K total for repairs if needed) holdback in the event there is a need for a rebuild after the sale and running with new fluid back to my home port. I will resample at that time.

My mechanic states that it would be less than 10K for a new ZF installed. Even less for a rebuild. The Cat fluid survey recommends changing the fluid and filter, running 250 hours and resampling.

 

[tiltrider1]

I don’t have any hoses that use salt water. Now it is possible that the story is accurate, I would want to see this hose and I would want to see a reason why it was dispensing salt water.

I do agree with your Mechanic. I believe the tranny could be rebuilt for $10,000. Now the issues is how long do you have to satisfy your self that the tranny is good?

 

[sunchaser]

Got the results back and the tranny has elevated water, sodium, iron, lead and copper among other things. Thoughts please?

MM
You asked for our thoughts. You received some feedback from very experienced boaters. I suggest a deep breath and seriously consider the other issues we've raised. This is a clear case of where there is smoke there is fire and possibly well beyond the transmission.

 

[rgano]

I am NOT buying "the cover was open for several days and a hose magically squirted seawater into the tranny" thing. No buying it at all. At a minimum, it suggests some poor engineering practices as we used to say in the Navy. Does the engine or other engine room metal have signs of rust? Are there signs of green corrosion at battery terminals? Do all electrical circuits work? How does the boat smell after a day or so closed up with no AC running? You know, the standard things to check for flooding.

 

[mml2112]

Just got more info:

The mechanic and he were inspecting the fluid in New Jersey on the Loop running up from Georgia. The mechanic couldn't get the filter cover back on due to lack of knowledge. The ZF cooling hose above the ZF was off and dripped seawater into the ZF. The cover was eventually installed properly and the filter was changed at that time (not the fluid), but it has been Looping like that from New Jersey to Illinois. A local mechanic will be changing the fluid and filter this week hopefully.

 

[MacPhid]

I guess it depends on how high the readings are, if the testing firm recommends changing fluid and filter and retesting after 20 hours then I'm guessing the readings weren't in the danger zone. That said, it sounds like it's been running with this mixture of salt water for 6 months (New Jersey to Illinois) and perhaps sitting for a time. I would think the holdback would be a very good idea.

James

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

Some perspective on fluid samples from a current surveyor and former yacht broker.

Although I take lots of fluid samples now and I think they can be a useful tool, people need to keep in mind that the real value is in trend analysis. Taking regular samples on a regular basis with the same number of hours on the fluid can tell you a lot about the health of the engine/gear. A single sample only tells you the current condition of the fluid and there are many, many variables.

When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey. Old oil at survey is a deal killer, as evidenced by the jumping to extreme conclusions on this thread. Most seem to read "elevated water, sodium" as reason to believe the vessel sank. I see no reason to leap to that conclusion.

The OP had the boat surveyed, so I'm sure the surveyor was looking for actual evidence of a prior sinking. The OP wrote "elevated" which is probably how the lab wrote it, and not "high".

High hours and lots of time sitting without changing the fluids is a guaranteed way to make an oil sample fail analysis. I saw it many times, old guy quits using his boat, had a bunch of hours on the oil, decides he's not going to change it because he's selling it. Boat sits on the market for a year, goes to survey and the oil analysis comes back with all kinds of things in it. Buyer usually freaks out, cancels the deal or tries to renegotiate heavily because of the results. 90% of the time though an oil change & putting 5-10 hours on the oil results in normal oil sample.

I once saw a twin engine boat that had oil samples pulled by the hull surveyor and by the engine surveyor, sent to 2 different labs. One set came back bad on both engines, the other set said they were fine. Probably because one of them scraped a little debris from the bottom of the pan.

My point is when a single oil sample comes back bad on a survey, take a deep breath, change the fluid, put some more hours on the gear, and resample. It's one data point, conclusions are best drawn from multiple data points that suggest the same conclusion. When an engine has been sunk it usually takes at least 3-4 fluid changes to remove the salt from showing up in analysis. If the OP's second analysis comes back fine after a change and running, then he's probably going to be ok.

 

[mml2112]

Current plan is:

1. Seller changes fluid and filter. I keep the filter for inspection later.

2. I purchase the boat with $7K held back.

3. I take the boat on the maiden voyage with new mate on 400 mile cruise to home port.

4. Resample fluid, have mechanic inspect the ZF.

5. If all is well, pay seller the $7K hold back.

Here are the numbers in PPM:
Cu
Copper
174

Fe
Iron
112

Cr
Chromium
2

Al
Aluminum
3

Pb
Lead
139

Sn
Tin
4

Si
Silicon
5

Na
Sodium
80

K
Potassium
6

Mo
Molybdenum
0

Ca
Calcium
86

P
Phosphorus
179

Zn
Zinc
89

Mg
Magnesium
13

And recommendation from Cat lab:
POSITIVE WATER DETECTED IN OIL. SODIUM IS SLIGHTLY ELEVATED, THIS
MAY BE COOLANT CONTAMINATION OR RELATED TO OIL FORMULATION. LEAD
AND COPPER ARE ELEVATED SUGGESTING BRONZE COMPONENT WEAR. IRON IS
ELEVATED. NO CONTAMINANTS (DIRT/WATER) DETECTED OR ANY OTHER INDICATION
OF WHAT MAY BE CAUSING INCREASED WEAR. SUGGEST CHECKING MAGNETIC SCREEN OR CUTTING OPEN THE OLD FILTER TO INSPECT FOR MAGNETIC WEAR DEBRIS AS A PRECAUTION AND SAMPLE IN 250 HRS TO MONITOR.

 

[twistedtree]

Some perspective on fluid samples from a current surveyor and former yacht broker.



Although I take lots of fluid samples now and I think they can be a useful tool, people need to keep in mind that the real value is in trend analysis. Taking regular samples on a regular basis with the same number of hours on the fluid can tell you a lot about the health of the engine/gear. A single sample only tells you the current condition of the fluid and there are many, many variables.



When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey. Old oil at survey is a deal killer, as evidenced by the jumping to extreme conclusions on this thread. Most seem to read "elevated water, sodium" as reason to believe the vessel sank. I see no reason to leap to that conclusion.



The OP had the boat surveyed, so I'm sure the surveyor was looking for actual evidence of a prior sinking. The OP wrote "elevated" which is probably how the lab wrote it, and not "high".



High hours and lots of time sitting without changing the fluids is a guaranteed way to make an oil sample fail analysis. I saw it many times, old guy quits using his boat, had a bunch of hours on the oil, decides he's not going to change it because he's selling it. Boat sits on the market for a year, goes to survey and the oil analysis comes back with all kinds of things in it. Buyer usually freaks out, cancels the deal or tries to renegotiate heavily because of the results. 90% of the time though an oil change & putting 5-10 hours on the oil results in normal oil sample.



I once saw a twin engine boat that had oil samples pulled by the hull surveyor and by the engine surveyor, sent to 2 different labs. One set came back bad on both engines, the other set said they were fine. Probably because one of them scraped a little debris from the bottom of the pan.



My point is when a single oil sample comes back bad on a survey, take a deep breath, change the fluid, put some more hours on the gear, and resample. It's one data point, conclusions are best drawn from multiple data points that suggest the same conclusion. When an engine has been sunk it usually takes at least 3-4 fluid changes to remove the salt from showing up in analysis. If the OP's second analysis comes back fine after a change and running, then he's probably going to be ok.

Wow, so you coached your clients to intentionally obscure and interfere with oil testing. That’s a great example of what gives brokers a bad name in the industry.

 

[Comodave]

Current plan is:

1. Seller changes fluid and filter. I keep the filter for inspection later.

2. I purchase the boat with $7K held back.

3. I take the boat on the maiden voyage with new mate on 400 mile cruise to home port.

4. Resample fluid, have mechanic inspect the ZF.

5. If all is well, pay seller the $7K hold back.

Here are the numbers in PPM:
Cu
Copper
174

Fe
Iron
112

Cr
Chromium
2

Al
Aluminum
3

Pb
Lead
139

Sn
Tin
4

Si
Silicon
5

Na
Sodium
80

K
Potassium
6

Mo
Molybdenum
0

Ca
Calcium
86

P
Phosphorus
179

Zn
Zinc
89

Mg
Magnesium
13

And recommendation from Cat lab:
POSITIVE WATER DETECTED IN OIL. SODIUM IS SLIGHTLY ELEVATED, THIS
MAY BE COOLANT CONTAMINATION OR RELATED TO OIL FORMULATION. LEAD
AND COPPER ARE ELEVATED SUGGESTING BRONZE COMPONENT WEAR. IRON IS
ELEVATED. NO CONTAMINANTS (DIRT/WATER) DETECTED OR ANY OTHER INDICATION
OF WHAT MAY BE CAUSING INCREASED WEAR. SUGGEST CHECKING MAGNETIC SCREEN OR CUTTING OPEN THE OLD FILTER TO INSPECT FOR MAGNETIC WEAR DEBRIS AS A PRECAUTION AND SAMPLE IN 250 HRS TO MONITOR.

Sounds like a good plan. Even if the transmission needs replacing you have the majority of the money to do it. You certainly can’t expect to buy a used boat and have nothing wrong with it.

 

[O C Diver]

So my understanding is they ran 2,000+ miles with contaminated transmission fluid. BTW, that lead number seems really high and is probably from bearings.

So my question is, "if the transmission needs to be rebuilt or replaced next year, will you think this was a really bad decision?"

If it were me, I couldn't imagine going cruising waiting for it to fail in the worst possible circumstance. I would get a best estimate from the shop in your area (warranty close to home) to rebuild the transmission including removal and replacement. Then go negotiate with the owner.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

Wow, so you coached your clients to intentionally obscure and interfere with oil testing. That’s a great example of what gives brokers a bad name in the industry.

When an oil sample is submitted, number of hours is also given to the lab. I assumed thr lab makes an adjustment for low hour vs high hour oil so time alone doesn't mask outputs. Of course if seller is not honest about number of hours on oil (e.g. saying it has 100 hours when in fact it has 5), not much you can do I suppose.

I agree with you TT about the advice from broker/surveyor. Buyer obviously cannot establish a trend so can only take a point sample and do his best from there. I would have been more comfortable if the advice had been for seller/broker to take the time and establish a partial trend of results rather than make efforts to obscure validity of results.

Peter

 

[Bacchus]

Just got more info:

The mechanic and he were inspecting the fluid in New Jersey on the Loop running up from Georgia. The mechanic couldn't get the filter cover back on due to lack of knowledge. The ZF cooling hose above the ZF was off and dripped seawater into the ZF. The cover was eventually installed properly and the filter was changed at that time (not the fluid), but it has been Looping like that from New Jersey to Illinois. A local mechanic will be changing the fluid and filter this week hopefully.

Something doesn't add up here and just makes my BS meter peg the needle...

The ZF 85 tranny has a metallic cleanable filter (not a replaceable paper filter) Cover has one screw in center of cap and an oRing. Is seems hard to believe a "mechanic" even a DIYer that removes the cover and cant reassemble it is just hard to believe. To disconnect the heat xchanger (above) with that filter cover off is just beyond belief.
I think I would be asking for the mechanics invoice and phoning him to get more details / confirmation that he was that incompetent and caused this fiasco because he couldnt figure out how to replace a cover with one center screw having taken it off???
Still doesn't smell right to me

Maybe Teds suggestion of just having it pulled & inspected and rebuilt is the best approach. Get a ball park estimate and negotiate the price with understanding that you will have to do that for peace of mind vs just waiting for a failure that might involve higher rebuild cost if it runs to failure at the most inopportune time.

 

[twistedtree]

Something doesn't add up here and just makes my BS meter peg the needle...

The ZF 85 tranny has a metallic cleanable filter (not a replaceable paper filter) Cover has one screw in center of cap and an oRing. Is seems hard to believe a "mechanic" even a DIYer that removes the cover and cant reassemble it is just hard to believe. To disconnect the heat xchanger (above) with that filter cover off is just beyond belief.
I think I would be asking for the mechanics invoice and phoning him to get more details / confirmation that he was that incompetent and caused this fiasco because he couldnt figure out how to replace a cover with one center screw having taken it off???
Still doesn't smell right to me

I agree (I have a variation of the same gear too), but the OP has decided to move ahead. Hopefully everything will turn out fine.

 

[Delta Riverat]

There are a lot of salt water (whatever water you float in) hoses on a boat. Washdown hoses, AC hoses and engine-transmission cooling hoses.

I don't have a problem with "salt water got into the tranny from a hose"

 

[mvweebles]

If it were me, I couldn't imagine going cruising waiting for it to fail in the worst possible circumstance. I would get a best estimate from the shop in your area (warranty close to home) to rebuild the transmission including removal and replacement. Then go negotiate with the owner.

This is the problem........every tick or squeek or slap would echo in my mind "Was that the tranny?????"

Decent article from Steve D on Engine Oil analysis (PDF HERE). I seem to recall one of his articles mentions some contaminants are ever-present and won't be masked by an owner/broker nefariously changing oil immediately prior to survey. Unfortunately, this article does not appear to have that information.

Peter

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

Wow, so you coached your clients to intentionally obscure and interfere with oil testing. That’s a great example of what gives brokers a bad name in the industry.

It's unfortunate that you missed the entire point of what I wrote. Nothing is "intentionally obscured" or "interfered" with by having relatively clean oil in the engine. The date of oil change (if known) and number of hours on the oil are included with every oil sample, as well as the age and total number of hours on the engine. We also include the weight and type of oil if known. The labs that do the analysis can tell if someone sends them clean oil and says it has 100 hours on it.

I coached my clients to provide a FAIR oil sample. 2 year old oil with 150 hours on it is not fair to the seller when it comes back with misleadingly bad results. Fair to everybody is when there is >5 hours on the oil and less than 6 months.

But if your moral code requires it then sell your boat with dirty oil in the engine. I assume you also would feel it's wrong to dry the bilges before someone comes to look at your boat as well? Do you consider it deceitful also when someone changes the absorbent rags below the engine before a survey? How about a touch up of the paint? Is that misleading?

 

[mvweebles]

I coached my clients to provide a FAIR oil sample. 2 year old oil with 150 hours on it is not fair to the seller when it comes back with misleadingly bad results. Fair to everybody is when there is >5 hours on the oil and less than 6 months.

If you did a sample/analysis before changing the oil, then the buyer does another, I would agree with you. Would also support your main premise - a single data point is not a trend. Two data points is at least a start. Plus, if you read the Steve D article, labs adjust for age, hours, and added make-up oil. But that's not what you are recommending. Not even close.

Harsh to say but I'm with TT. There is only one reason to do what you've suggested in the manner you have suggested: hide a potentially non-flattering outcome. Not to discover or verify condition, but to proactively hide it.

Peter

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

I've got no problem with people questioning my knowledge, but when you question my ethics those are fighting words.

It's not "hiding" a potential issue. If there is an issue it will show up. The only thing it is avoiding is misleadingly bad results. Look at Steve D's article that you posted, he goes through how the same levels in oil that is normal with 100 hours would be a problem in oil with 20 hours. But a surprising number of boaters don't log their oil changes, boats sit on the market (when I was a broker) for years. Knowing when the oil was changed, how many hours are on it, is not deceptive in any way.

I guarantee you I could go through any marina in Florida and if I were to pull oil samples on every boat in there at least 15%, probably more, would fail. Not because the engines have been sunk, not because the engines are in bad shape, but only because they have old, nasty oil in them. Counseling a client to not be one of the 15% is the brokers job. Just like telling him that his boat stinks and he needs to get rid of the head smell. Just like telling him his engine is a rusty piece of **** and he needs to clean and paint it if he wants his price. Presenting the boat in the best possible light is the listing brokers job.

Deceptive is changing the hour meter. Deceptive is lying about how many hours are on the oil. Deceptive is lying about anything.

Changing the oil is not lying. I don't lie and I don't deceive. I don't EVER tell others to do those things. F you guys for even suggesting it.

 

[twistedtree]

It's unfortunate that you missed the entire point of what I wrote. Nothing is "intentionally obscured" or "interfered" with by having relatively clean oil in the engine. The date of oil change (if known) and number of hours on the oil are included with every oil sample, as well as the age and total number of hours on the engine. We also include the weight and type of oil if known. The labs that do the analysis can tell if someone sends them clean oil and says it has 100 hours on it.

I coached my clients to provide a FAIR oil sample. 2 year old oil with 150 hours on it is not fair to the seller when it comes back with misleadingly bad results. Fair to everybody is when there is >5 hours on the oil and less than 6 months.

But if your moral code requires it then sell your boat with dirty oil in the engine. I assume you also would feel it's wrong to dry the bilges before someone comes to look at your boat as well? Do you consider it deceitful also when someone changes the absorbent rags below the engine before a survey? How about a touch up of the paint? Is that misleading?

An oil sample is most reflective of engine condition at the end of its change interval. Yes, the tester will scale/interpret based on hrs on the oil, but a low hours sample will be minimally reflective of condition. An engine isn’t going to shed metal particles while turned off, so time will have little effect on the sample, or little effect on the things we car about. Changing the oil so the sample only has a few hours on it will mask all but the most badly damaged engine, and I think is an intentional “hand on the scale”.