Thrusters Not needed??

[PhilPB]

Thank you all very much for the insightful comments and suggestions. I truly love the varied and honest advice from forum members.

As background, We live and cruise on the West coast but our entire family is on the East coast, so we expect frequent guest on our East coast boat. Both my brother, his 4 kids and my father are susceptible to sea sickness. We potentially can have 10 souls on the boat at once. Consequently, we are targeting larger boats with stabilizers for sure. But many good candidates don't have thrusters.

After reading your comments, I started contacting outfits in FL to get an estimate on installing a bow thruster. Just waiting to hear back. I may also ask the cost for a stern thruster, since the boat will be already on the hard.

We actually use our current stern thruster frequently to get off the swimgrid when docking but also when trying to move laterally at fuels docks if stuck between 2 boats. I suspect we can manage with a bow thruster only.

One difference is that the flybridge and aft deck on our west coast boat are fully enclosed and is extremely susceptible to windage. Many FL boats have open an open flybridge, so potentially less windage?.

I am looking at an older Hatteras 70’ with Stabilizers but no thrusters. And a 60’ Jefferson with the old Koopnautic stabilizers and a non functioning thruster but it has a teak covered bow, flybridge, etc. Not ideal.

I would love a long range cruiser vessel but cannot find the right mix at the moment. I anticipate that electronics and various things will need updating right off the bat with beautiful older vessels.. so with the addition of a thruster.. things will creep up pretty good prior to mile one but that,s boating.

I am hoping to impose on you once more as I tackle how or if it is fair to adjust an offer based on needing to install a thruster?


Thank you all again

Raylee

I would recommend Florida Bow Thrusters, they even travel out of state. They fully installed my thruster in 2.5 days. That included a huge hole in boat, glassed in tunnel, installed thruster, electronics, battery, faired and new bottom paint to match what I had.
I spoke with Ian Dils. He is very knowledgeable and answered any and all questions. They were on time and did everything as planned.

 

[Ken E.]

I don't have thrusters and with twin engines, get along fine without them. But that doesnt mean I wouldn't like to have a bow thruster, especially a powerful hydraulic one. As stated, above, it's another tool that would be handy to have available.

 

[Osprey69]

I don't have a professional crew to handle lines. It's just the two of us, both in our 70s. She stands patiently on the swim step while I get that end close enough it's a simple safe step off. She ties the stern while I keep the boat pinned to the dock no matter what the current and wind are doing until she has time to move to the bow to catch that line. No running, no jumping just an easy stress free tie up.

Love this...totally stealing it when dockhands are not about (which fortunately is rare)! Thank you.

 

[Bmarler]

i have a full displacement single screw with bow and stern thrusters. i have always had single screw and managed just fine, but the addition of thrusters makes things much less stressful.
i didn't think i'd ever want or use a stern thruster till i had one. it's so intuitive to use with single screw mentality, shove the stern around like you would with a prop and rudder so you point where you want to go. saves a lot of shifting.

 

[O C Diver]

We actually use our current stern thruster frequently to get off the swimgrid when docking but also when trying to move laterally at fuels docks if stuck between 2 boats. I suspect we can manage with a bow thruster only.

While I encourage you to get what you want, there are some basic boating techniques such as using a spring line to pivot the stern out without the bow moving forward that are quite easy to master. Spring lines also work well for bringing the boat parallel to the dock and limiting its forward movement. Strongly encourage you to learn the spring line techniques for parallel docking.

Ted

 

[fgarriso]

Even if you have one engine?

Yes, even with a single engine.

If you never had, you don't miss it.

 

[ABfish]

While I encourage you to get what you want, there are some basic boating techniques such as using a spring line to pivot the stern out without the bow moving forward that are quite easy to master. Spring lines also work well for bringing the boat parallel to the dock and limiting its forward movement. Strongly encourage you to learn the spring line techniques for parallel docking.

Ted

I read this a lot, and it can be a handy technique within reason, but some marinas prohibit placing the engines in gear while tied to the dock. That's understandable given the number of high horsepower boats these days that make five knots at idle speed.

 

[rslifkin]

I read this a lot, and it can be a handy technique within reason, but some marinas prohibit placing the engines in gear while tied to the dock. That's understandable given the number of high horsepower boats these days that make five knots at idle speed.

I've never seen that restriction. If a marina's cleats are crappy enough that they can't handle one engine idling in gear against a spring line, I don't want to be there. Regardless, if I feel I need a spring line to get in or out safely, I'm going to use one no matter what their rules say. And if they want to throw me out for it, good riddance, I'll tell everyone I know never to go there.

 

[fgarriso]

I've never seen that restriction. If a marina's cleats are crappy enough that they can't handle one engine idling in gear against a spring line, I don't want to be there. Regardless, if I feel I need a spring line to get in or out safely, I'm going to use one no matter what their rules say. And if they want to throw me out for it, good riddance, I'll tell everyone I know never to go there.

 

[O C Diver]

I read this a lot, and it can be a handy technique within reason, but some marinas prohibit placing the engines in gear while tied to the dock. That's understandable given the number of high horsepower boats these days that make five knots at idle speed.

While I acknowledge that some boaters can put far to much force on cleats, the technique works very well with small doses of in and out of gear. I certainly don't want to strain the cleats on my boat either. Given a choice, I'm more likely to use a piling (part of the dock) instead of a cleat.

Ted

 

[Raylee]

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

 

[O C Diver]

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

IMO, it really doesn't matter what you want to do to the boat after you own it, it's about whether the seller accepts the offer. Arguing that an old boat needs a bow thruster after so many years is like arguing it needs new navigation equipment. Make an offer, but it's of no value to argue it (versus you ) needs a bow thruster.

Ted

 

[CharlieO.]

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

The boat is not defective because it doesn't have a bow thruster, to reduce the offer based on that it is not equipped with one nor ever has had one seems a bit weird to me.

Now if you have comps showing similar boats equipped with thrusters are the same price as this one would give you a little negotiating room for pointing that out.

This is just my opinion.

 

[ranger58sb]

I read this a lot, and it can be a handy technique within reason, but some marinas prohibit placing the engines in gear while tied to the dock. That's understandable given the number of high horsepower boats these days that make five knots at idle speed.

Haven't ever come across this.

OTOH, using a spring line with engines in and out of gear wouldn't meet my definition of "tied to the dock."

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

I know it's not intended, but here's how the seller will view your adjustment based on cost to install a new bow thruster. "I neither want nor need a thruster but the buyer wants me to pay for one? Maybe the buyer wants a nicer dinghy too? How about a fully motorized dinghy crane while we're making our a Christmas list? Maybe a watermaker? I know that's how you mean it, but it's probably how it would be received.

You have to base your offer on age, condition, and equipment. Most buyers create some sort of spreadsheet to compare total purchase cost against what your wants and needs in a boat weighted to reflect their individual priorities and budget. Apparently a bow, thruster is pretty important to you. You should not look at boats without one. While I'm not a buyer, I feel that way about stabilization

Good luck in your search

Peter

 

[PhilPB]

When I purchased my boat the plan was to have a thruster installed as one of the first upgrades I desired. I didn't adjust the offer to buy the boat based on that as they were operating the boat for many years without one and the setup was fine for them, I just wanted it. I considered it an upgrade, the same as having the boat painted with awlgrip so it was on me. Granted, my purchase was much less than yours and in the end, my first haulout which included the thruster, awlgrip, new running gear and bottom paint cost much more than the total purchase price for the boat. Just my experience and not a complaint.
If you already made an offer that was accepted but now you would like to renegotiate because you would like more upgrades, I personally wouldn't do it, and wouldn't appreciate someone else doing it to me.

 

[PhilPB]

After rereading your first post you haven't made an offer yet. An offer is just that, an offer. You can make an offer that in your mind would cover some or all of the cost of thrusters and if they don't like your offer they may counter or accept.

 

[guy with a boat]

Regarding adjusting your offer, you can make an offer based on what the boat is worth to you. It may not be productive to argue to the seller that the price should be lower based on lack of a thruster, but it is completely legitimate to make that adjustment in your own mind and offer accordingly.

Every boat is different and they will all take different work and expense to make them the way you want them. Your offer on any boat needing work or adjustments would reasonably be lower than a comparable boat that is already how you want it. The seller doesn’t have to agree with your logic, they just decide if the number works for them or not. You aren’t debating the market value so much as determing the number that each side will be satisfied with. That number is influenced by market value but the two aren’t necessarily the same.

 

[READY]

To me, the question is whst are you willing to pay for the boat? If you sre trying to justify to the seller that your price is fair you could compare your offer to available comparable boats that have a thruster and your offer includes an adjustment for the thruster if you consider that of value.

Bottom line you can make any offer you want. If you want this particular boat you just need to make a competive offer in the market. If the boat is already priced 25k under comparable boats with thruster then the seller has already made an adjustment and is asking "fair market value". So a lot depends upon the starting point of the list price.

If it is a rarely available boat and fairly priced then the owner could not care less what you plan to add. It seems we are in more of a buyers market so you may still see some flexibility but good boats priced at fair value are still likely to sell close to that fair value. If it has been sitting on the market for awhile that tells me it might be overpriced.

Happy to chat by phone if I can offer any assistance. Have bought and sold dozen plus boats over the years, including 2 Hatts.

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

 

[Comodave]

For me what makes the bow thruster desireable for us are primarily two reasons.

The pleasure boat is not a heavy deep work boat with a barn door rudder. It's relatively light weight, light draft and high windage.

I don't have a professional crew to handle lines. It's just the two of us, both in our 70s. She stands patiently on the swim step while I get that end close enough it's a simple safe step off. She ties the stern while I keep the boat pinned to the dock no matter what the current and wind are doing until she has time to move to the bow to catch that line. No running, no jumping just an easy stress free tie up.

Some day when enough other projects are completed and paid for I may add a remote for the thruster. It would make her job even easier if I were on the bow handing the line to her.

Someone up thread called his thruster Lucille because she'd leave at the most inappropriate times. One of the best ship handlers I ever worked for said to new hands "Stop it before you dock it." In other words before you get into the tight spot know that steering, engine controls especially reverse and thrusters are working. Test 'em, it only adds a few seconds to the maneuver.

Exactly. Thrusters make life easier when you get older. Safety is critical and not having to run around while handling lines makes it much safer. Being safe on the boat means that our boating life can go longer into our old age. What is that worth?

 

[Comodave]

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

Agree that not having thrusters is not a defect in the boat. Usually after a survey and sea trial you drop the offer based on defects that are found. However that said any offer you make is fine if the seller accepts it. I would not couch the lower offer in terms of the boat having a defect because it doesn’t have thrusters but rather this is what I can afford. People get defensive when you say there is something wrong with their baby so I never cast aspersions on the boat rather on myself in that this offer is all I can afford.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Old age kinda snuk up on me when i wasn't looking. Gotta make it easy on both of us.

Exactly. Thrusters make life easier when you get older. Safety is critical and not having to run around while handling lines makes it much safer. Being safe on the boat means that our boating life can go longer into our old age. What is that worth?

 

[fgarriso]

Thank you very much for the additional comment. I did contact Florida bow thrusters and was given an all in price of $26,500 (includes AGM batterie, cables, joystick, 48V sidepower bow thruster and installation) for a 70’ Hattera for example, same price for a stern thruster. Done in 3 days max.

So, my dilemma now is the following, Is it fair to reduce the offer by a certain amount to account for the bow thruster? At first blush, it makes sense but now I am not sure.. if it makes sense.. do I drop the offer by the full cost of the thruster, 50%, 30%.??

Any guidance or experiences would be much appreciate

Raylee

NO!

You do not reduce your offer unless you are comparing the same boats and one has a thruster and the comp boat does not. You have to go feature for feature and dollar for dollar.

 

[NightCrawler]

Certainly if you feel the need, follow what feels good. What works for others is rarely what you do. We had a 42' trawler with twin screws. I asked a seasoned captain about adding bow thrusters. His answer "Learn to drive your boat. When you need the thruster, it will blow a fuse, lock up or the battery will be dead." I chuckled at this. . .until three years ago when I began working in marinas here in Beaufort. Yes, we do have some current for sure on the tides. And wind.

I watched delivery captains spend 20 minutes trying to get 60' yachts to a face dock against the wind. To the point of blowing the breakers. (not one, many) If the current is on your beam in a boat the sizes you are looking at, no bow thruster I've ever witnessed will overcome it. They're great in calm water, you can lazy fail a docking and save it with the thruster. Do not expect it to overcome anything over 20K winds or 3k currents. They're just not that strong.

 

[rslifkin]

Do not expect it to overcome anything over 20K winds or 3k currents. They're just not that strong.

That's because in my mind, most thrusters are undersized. If I were sizing one for my boat, for example, I'd want to size it to be able to at least hold the bow (if not move it upwind) against 30 kts on or forward of the beam. High winds are the time I'd be most likely to need it, so adding a thruster that isn't strong enough to help in high winds would be a waste.

 

[Mike H]

We just went from the coast of Maine to West Palm, through the ICW from Virginia down. We have twin Cats, and we have both bow and stern thrusters. Some of the marinas that we were in are very tight. Couple that with a nice side breeze. Or no one at the dock to catch a line. Or, or....

When making reservations with the City of Ft Pierce City Marina, they asked if we had a bow thruster. I have no idea what they would have said if I told them "no."

Yes, you can get by without them. But yes, they make life a lot easier, especially when backing into a slip. Our visibility to the near stern is zero, and with cameras (that seem to blank out at the most inopportune time), and the admiral on the headset, I can back in, thrust a few inches one way or the other, all with the pucker factor at a reasonable level.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Haven't ever come across this.

OTOH, using a spring line with engines in and out of gear wouldn't meet my definition of "tied to the dock."

-Chris

Our preferred method of docking Fintry was to drop a spring line on a bollard and then go forward at idle with the rudder hard over away from the dock. After moving a couple of docks, I stopped doing that on most floating docks. Fintry has a five foot prop and a rudder to match.



We went around the world on a Swan 57 without a bow thruster. Had a problem docking only once -- the north end of Phuket in a four knot tidalcurrent I couldn't back into the slip.


Fintry's 60hp bow thruster was useful when leaving her Boston marina -- with a 1 knot tidal current on both sides of the barge on the outside of the marina, she would get a good angle as the bow got behind the barge and only the stern was pushed by the current and then the opposite. Useful but not essential. Also useful docking upwind to starboard -- she backs to port. And leaving the Boston slip required doing a 180 with 100' to the opposite side of the slip, 20' more than her 82' length with swim platform. Could do it without the thruster if there was little wind, but the thruster made it much easier.



Morning Light has a 1500W Vetus thruster. Very useful in the 3 knot current of the Merrimack River.


Our next boat will have a bow thruster.


Jim


---
Sweetwater - Swan 57 sloop - circumnavigated 1995-98
Fintry - x Royal Navy Fleet Tender 2003-22 20k miles including x-Atlantic The Fleet Tender Fintry
Morning Light -- Webbers Cove 42 trawler 2021-23
Going back to sailing now that Morning Light is sold.

 

[O C Diver]

When making reservations with the City of Ft Pierce City Marina, they asked if we had a bow thruster. I have no idea what they would have said if I told them "no."

They might have told you to wait for slack tidal current. The tidal current from Fort Pierce inlet (about 1 mile from there) rips through the marina. Piece of cake at slack current.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

We just went from the coast of Maine to West Palm, through the ICW from Virginia down. We have twin Cats, and we have both bow and stern thrusters. Some of the marinas that we were in are very tight. Couple that with a nice side breeze. Or no one at the dock to catch a line. Or, or....

When making reservations with the City of Ft Pierce City Marina, they asked if we had a bow thruster. I have no idea what they would have said if I told them "no."

Yes, you can get by without them. But yes, they make life a lot easier, especially when backing into a slip. Our visibility to the near stern is zero, and with cameras (that seem to blank out at the most inopportune time), and the admiral on the headset, I can back in, thrust a few inches one way or the other, all with the pucker factor at a reasonable level.

Maybe they would have told you to wait as Ted mentioned.

They may have assigned you a different slip.

One of the last times I was going in there, they warned me not to come in yet, I asked them what my assigned slip was and I needed no assistance tying up. They said OK, come in. Have had the same at other marinas.

Maybe because those times they knew me and the boat from an earlier visit...but I don't think it was a qustion for anything more than helping you.

 

[Bacchus]

This discussion always gets me going....
The comments re:
just figure out how to handle your boat....
Won't have one as they might quit operating...
Don't have one... don't want one... who needs them... etc... etc... are just bluster IMO

If its OK to have a second engine why not OK to have a thruster? Engines & trannys can quit then what do you do? Have to practice what to do when something fails in either case.

Thruster maint less work & $ than a second engine

I can ( have) added a remote a lot less $ than a remote for twins or single eng.
Not everyone has LARGE rudders that allow very responsive handling... why is it OK to add rudder mods when thrusters are NG?

Folks buy new boats w/ Pod drives and brag about them while calling thrusters " cheaters "

Do what you please but I'm for make it easy!