Swivel or no Swivel

[angus99]

Just read an intersting tidbit on another forum.


A person with a Manson Supreme switched to a Mantus Swivel and had repeated anchoring problems with it.


Initial and resets were hit or miss in varying conditions.


When the Mantus swivel was removed, he went back to no problems with sets or resets. He dove on the anchor and watched the anchor lay on its side versus setting.



He thinks what he once has read in a Practical Sailor article that the article claimed the weight of the swivel might prevent the anchor from setting properly war correct.


So some of the anchoring "theory" that people toss out about using heavier chain near the anchor than is recommended by the manufacturer may not be such a good idea if it's weight is enough to throw off the anchors ability to set.

Scott, did the article say what size Manson? I’m trying to imagine how a Mantus swivel—robust as it may be—could have any impact on the orientation of a large Supreme. Certainly any impact that an all-chain rode already doesn’t have.

 

[psneeld]

never saw the article.....might try google

 

[markpierce]

More than once, my swivel untwisted the anchor chain after several tidal-current reversals upon anchor recovery.

 

[Sofa King Fishy]

I have a Mantus swivel, and have anchored with it (and a Rocna) hundreds of nights over the last 5 summers. Great design, IMHO. Flawless in my experience. It's easy to inspect the wire to see if it's getting beat up. Almost every year I take it apart and re-wire.

Yeppers- I second that. Rocna 55 w a Mantus swivel- it’s a great set up ...so far! Been in some heavy blows with no issues.

 

[eheffa]

With all the bad juju around swivels, I tried replacing my perfectly fine Mantus swivel with a shackle.

The shackle fouls on my Kingston Bow roller & it’s hit & miss as to the anchor orientation.

I went back to using the Mantus swivel.

BTW: The Mantus doesn’t side load like the parallel cheek designs & has a WLL higher than my Hi test G4 5/16” chain.

I don’t see a problem here...

 

[dennismenace111]

"]My last boat that I had surveyed had a Mantus heavy duty swivel. The surveyor listed that I should have it removed. I'm getting conflicting opinions to remove it or not.

Has anyone experienced a mantus swivel breaking???

I personally would attach a 24 inch length of chain to the anchor with a shakle, then the swivel, then the anchor rode attached with a proper shakle.

Swivels fail because of side loads against the tongue of the anchor. The short piece of chain eliminates that twisting side load.

 

[Bryant]

Swivel

"]My last boat that I had surveyed had a Mantus heavy duty swivel. The surveyor listed that I should have it removed. I'm getting conflicting opinions to remove it or not.

Has anyone experienced a mantus swivel breaking???

I have a Mantus anchor and a Mantus swivel. It’s worked well in moderate conditions but I’m going to remove it. If you consider the physics, that’s just one more link in the chain to fail, so to speak.

 

[Giggitoni]

I have a Mantus anchor and a Mantus swivel. It’s worked well in moderate conditions but I’m going to remove it. If you consider the physics, that’s just one more link in the chain to fail, so to speak.

How is that link weaker than the 623rd link in your chain?

 

[Bryant]

Swivel

How is that link weaker than the 623rd link in your chain?

It’s one potential additional failure point added to the 623rd link in your chain. So instead of having one failure point, you now have two. Every added system to your boat is one additional failure point. Simplicity is always better. You should understand that.

 

[psneeld]

The million dollar question is what probability is it a failure point?...as I pointed out earlier, most skippers are way more likely to screw up anchoring than a well made and installed swivel.

 

[Giggitoni]

It’s one potential additional failure point added to the 623rd link in your chain. So instead of having one failure point, you now have two. Every added system to your boat is one additional failure point. Simplicity is always better. You should understand that.

The way I understand it...a well made swivel (Like an 35 Ultra Flip Swivel), of the same tensile strength as your chain’s tensile strength, is not a weak link in your rode. Tell me, what is the likelihood of the swivel breaking before any of the links in your chain?

I have about 3,250 links (just a guess) in my G4 chain. If I remove one link (I now have 3,249 links) and add my Ultra Flip Swivel with the same tensile strength, am I good to go?

 

[Salish Nomad]

Mantus anchor, Mantus swivel, many nights per year at anchor. Works well.

 

[Peter B]

The way I understand it...a well made swivel (Like an 35 Ultra Flip Swivel), of the same tensile strength as your chain’s tensile strength, is not a weak link in your rode. Tell me, what is the likelihood of the swivel breaking before any of the links in your chain?

To me, this is the definitive statement on this swivel issue. If your anchor just will not retrieve properly orientated better that 75% say of the time without a swivel, and you constantly have to poke it round with a boathook, then by all means use a swivel, or a flip-link Anchor Right Australia introduces, the innovative Flip Link - Anchor Right Australia.

But make it beefy, of sound construction, and with no way side forces can act on it, (like the Ultra Flip or Mantus), even if it means adding an extra (over-sized) shackle to guarantee this.

 

[Simi 60]

I was against swivels until I anchored in the same spot for 4 days and found my chain tremendously twisted upon anchor retrieval. My Vulcan anchor resisted spinning due to it's large blade area and the wind making the boat drift, and I ended up disconnecting the anchor and lowering the chain by itself to get the twists out. This could have been a big problem in a tight anchorage because I could not get the anchor all the way home, but it was not keeping the boat in place either.


.

Strange
My 150lb Manson supreme would have considerably more blade area yet it spins in the water just fine.
We regularly anchor in areas for a week or more with strong tidal reversals.

Never will I use a swivel.

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, psneeld, probability. In the many years I have been reading the posts on this forum I have come to the conclusion that that many boaters angst over events that are extremely unlikely to occur and sometimes spend much money protecting against. For example, my pet peeves, the perceived need for dual Racor filter housings or fuel polishing systems or day tanks. Sure, lightning may strike but is that anything except those who reside in high lightning strike areas worry about?

Here's a question. How many here have ever actually been stopped while cruising because of a plugged filter from a bad load of fuel? And I mean actually stopped, not simply needing to change a filter at the next stop because the vacuum gauge indicated a problem. My guess is very few and I would wonder if due diligence would have prevented the problem. Paying attention to vacuum gauges is due diligence. Do so and you won't ever use that changeover feature on the Racor housing that takes up valuable space and adds complexity to the fuel supply system.

I have just controverted the conventional wisdom. Let the slings and arrows fly. No need to respond because this thread is about anchor swivels, thread drift not allowed. By the way, I have a Mantis swivel. Love it and agree with those that posit that it is not a weak link any more so than that 623rd chain link. See what I mean about probability? More irrational boater's angst.

The million dollar question is what probability is it a failure point?...as I pointed out earlier, most skippers are way more likely to screw up anchoring than a well made and installed swivel.

 

[ranger58sb]

It’s one potential additional failure point added to the 623rd link in your chain. So instead of having one failure point, you now have two.

I don't actually mind one way or the other about who uses swivels... or not...

But in your example, wouldn't it be 624 potential failure points with the swivel, and 623 without?

-Chris

 

[AUXOPdwp]

I'm your huckleberry

[/B]. My guess is very few and I would wonder if due diligence would have prevented the problem. Paying attention to vacuum gauges is due diligence. Do so and you won't ever use that changeover feature on the Racor housing that takes up valuable space and adds complexity to the fuel supply system.

One's attitude toward this has to do with what kind of cruising you do and your perspective. Now that arthritis has forced me to give up bluewater sailing and move to a puddle jumping trawler, I have scaled back on contingency measures. Once on a voyage from Annapolis to Florida Keys to Bahamas & back, we had been making miles during a week of T-storms, when my sloop's Westerbeke 42B4 shut down in the Gulfstream and wouldn't restart. Open the hatch, turn the Racor lever and Ba-Da-Bing we were running again just as another squall set upon us.

That trip required refueling at several sub-par pit stops. Trying to put miles behind us during days of squalls no doubt distracted me from being as diligent a vacuum gauge observer as I should have been. And I lazily failed to pre-filter fuel at intake using the "Baja" hand filter I carried for years - shame on me!

I've chosen not to add the Racor cutover system to my Sabreline 34, but I am adding another pre-filter stage between my tanks and Racors, as highly recommended by top flight maintenance advisors like Tony Athens (https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-fuel-filtration-the-seaboard-way/) Tony reminds us that:

Cleanliness is next to godliness when we talk fuel injection as there is no such thing as “too clean”. So, after spending 10’s of thousands of $$ on either a new boat or a re-power, why would not spending a few $100 more by upgrading the “minimum” of fuel filtration equipment not be a wise investment?
​

In my golden years I'm no longer studying the writings of Steve Dashew (setsail.com/category/dashew-offshore/), John Harries (www.morganscloud.com) or Beth & Evans (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evans_Starzinger) to prepare ourselves and our vessel for whatever the oceans give us. But years of sailing and maintaining a variety of boats out of range of Tow-BoatUS and nearby all purpose repair facilities hones one's operational policies. I'll continue to strive to achieve systemic redundancies and avoid embarrassing/expensive mistakes like clogged injectors; especially due to what I find when helping Chesapeake 'boaters in distress' with CGAUX

Don
Semper Paratus

 

[gilbertpark]

I installed a ROCNA anchor and like many followed the advice to remove the swivel. I did but I anchor mostly in tidal waters, so the chain developed a twist in it. This went on for many feet. When I tried to get the anchor up using the winch the chain would form knuckles either when coming up jamming the winch or in the locker going down jamming the winch. Refitted the swivel problem disappeared overnight (literally), no more twists in the chain.

Without the swivel how are the twists that are high up meant to disappear?

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree with AUX. topped off all four tanks in Norfolk VA heading to Antigua. In the Saragasso clogged one racor. Flipped to the other. By the time that was done the other clogged. Carry 8. By the time we were out of the doldrums 6 were gone. You ask when was the last time they got fuel not wanting the bottom sludge nor fuel until particulate after a new load but they lie or the H.S. Kid just doesn’t know. In a trawler I agree with AUX. 2 racors. Another on the day tank and fuel transfer pump to polish it isn’t too much imho. Belt and suspenders on a boat, any boat, is wise.

 

[Peter B]

Quick thread hijack warning...reminder to Aux and Hippo, the thread is about swivels, not filters or dirty fuel...just sayin'

 

[FF]

Many of the swivels I have seen were made from SS , and SS suffers from crevice corrosion, galvanized chain does not, it rusts.

Chain links are composed of 2 load bearing pieces of the link, not just 1.

I have seen chain stretched to the point it no longer fits the windlass , but it was unbroken .


Topic (safety) switch , bad fuel can come from not replacing the O ring in the fuel deck plate.

 

[Hippocampus]

Admitting have been on sail not power but think need for a swivel means you’re getting too much twist in the chain or have some other issue . Need to investigate why the anchor won’t line up correctly with the roller. Usually the pull from the windlass and drop into the locker produces no twist. Then the anchor has no trouble lining up correctly and you get no jumbles in the locker. Think if you never pull the boat forward with the windlass but rather keep a bit of slack in the chain as it comes up any twist or other issue will move toward the anchor as you pull up the chain. Once you’re free and up and down the anchor will spin so that bit of twist goes away. Then the anchor will be correctly oriented as it leaves the water and go over the roller with no issue. Think people tend to rush things. Slow is pro in so many aspects of boating. My 2 cents.

 

[Bryant]

swivel

Admitting have been on sail not power but think need for a swivel means you’re getting too much twist in the chain or have some other issue . Need to investigate why the anchor won’t line up correctly with the roller. Usually the pull from the windlass and drop into the locker produces no twist. Then the anchor has no trouble lining up correctly and you get no jumbles in the locker. Think if you never pull the boat forward with the windlass but rather keep a bit of slack in the chain as it comes up any twist or other issue will move toward the anchor as you pull up the chain. Once you’re free and up and down the anchor will spin so that bit of twist goes away. Then the anchor will be correctly oriented as it leaves the water and go over the roller with no issue. Think people tend to rush things. Slow is pro in so many aspects of boating. My 2 cents.

You missed the point. The swivel has nothing to do with anchor retrieval. It has to do with the boat swinging on the anchor due to wind and tides while the anchor is set.

 

[bayview]

Swivels always looked like the weakest link to me. Never used them and never saw the need,

 

[mvweebles]

The PS articles on swivels have been mentioned. Here's a recently updated blog post that states they don't work as well as you'd think, which affirms their prior guidance that you're probably better off just hanging the anchor for a minute and let it untwirl itself.

To each their own. I'm done with swivels. Good time to go old school.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/how-well-do-swivels-reduce-twist-2

 

[Simi 60]

You missed the point. The swivel has nothing to do with anchor retrieval. It has to do with the boat swinging on the anchor due to wind and tides while the anchor is set.

We sit at anchor for weeks at a time on reversing tides
No swivel, (had one and got rid of it) very rarely ever an issue
Grooved rollers.

 

[rgano]

I personally doubt there is that much swiveling going on at the anchor equipped with one if a fair amount of anchor chain is lying on the bottom. Anyway, in my case, for this smaller vessel, I got a swivel due to the impossibility of ever getting the anchor to come home properly, most of the time. And no, I don't have a groove in the roller, yet, maybe never. I most often have to get up on the bow and twist the hanging anchor to get it to orient properly, and before the swivel, it was a semi-dangerous operation to grab chain, back out some from the chain locker with foot switch, twist anchor chain and retrieve chain with foot switch without damage to myself.

 

[Simi 60]

. I most often have to get up on the bow and twist the hanging anchor to get it to orient properly, and before the swivel, it was a semi-dangerous operation to grab chain, back out some from the chain locker with foot switch, twist anchor chain and retrieve chain with foot switch without damage to myself.

If there is ever an issue we simply reattach the snubber
Back off the chain
Re- orientate the chain
And bring it back in.

No stress, no danger, no damage done

 

[rgano]

If there is ever an issue we simply reattach the snubber
Back off the chain
Re- orientate the chain
And bring it back in.

No stress, no danger, no damage done

Glad it works for you, but I could do that five times in a row and have maybe 20% success. So simple to just spin in and lift.

 

[rslifkin]

After playing with some swivel options a bit, I just keep a boat hook handy during retrieval. On my boat, if it's oriented wrong, prod the anchor into something closer to the correct orientation with the boat hook and then bump the windlass up to just barely bring it onto the roller, at which point it flips into the correct orientation (it won't flip if it's perfectly backwards when it hits the roller, it'll just stop and not come onto the roller at all). Once it orients, then bring it the rest of the way in.