Need a bit of help with system design/setup - AGM & LiFePO4

[sandog]

Hello. I know there is a lot of different threads trying to discuss this, but unfortunately none seem to fit my need close enough. I have a 65' power boat. It has two engines for prop power, smaller generators on them. It had one 20kw generator and one 5kw generator. Engine room is midship, and has bow and stern thrusters. The stern thruster, along with the batteries, are in the aft cabin. Bow thruster batteries are in the engine room.

All batteries need replacing. The engines and bow thruster I will run off of two 8d agm batteries. The stern thruster requires the same. Unless anybody has a better idea for this. The ship is 100tons, so the thrusters are a bit large.

Due to the need to take this on a 6000 mile journey, and just completing another 2000 mile journey on a different boat (52', 16kw generator and 2 MTU 900HP engines) I own where I had to run the generator nearly constantly, I have decided to make this boat much more self-sufficient for this journey.

I intend to add flexible solar panels to my hard bimini (16' x12') top (any good recommendations from aliexpress would be great). Also looking to perhaps add a wind generator. But looking to also add in ~20kw (+/- 5kw) worth of LiFePO4 battery banks (not looking to build from cells).

So my question is help with some of the suppliers, and any help with design considerations given I plan to have solar, wind, two different generators, plus AGm and LiFePO4 batteries.

I am sure I am missing out on a ton of details you will need to provide some feedback, but anything would be great! Also, if there is a good solution to monitor power usage, I am interested that as well.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. We added LiFe PO4 batteries in our last boat for the house bank. They were deep cycle so wouldn’t work for the start or thruster batteries. With the size and complexity of your system, I would recommend finding a competent marine electrician that is familiar with Lithium batteries. It will be involved and complex, good luck.

 

[O C Diver]

If practical, I would have bow thruster batteries in the bow. Voltage drop through long cable runs isn't good for thrusters.

What engines are in this boat. Do they need 8Ds? I would replace atleast one engine alternator with a large frame continuous duty 200+ amp alternator (Leece Neville or Balmar) and Balmar external regulator. That's worth about 3 KW. Whatever you do for a house bank this alternator / regulator combination will handle charging and most DC loads.

Ted

 

[DennisB1]

It seems that you should be considering using hydraulics rather than batteries to power your thrusters and anchor winch. Makes the battery systems needed only for engine start, house loads and maybe a separate electronics less complicated. The solar cells would be nice and the large externally regulated alternators on each engine would be nice also.

 

[sandog]

If practical, I would have bow thruster batteries in the bow. Voltage drop through long cable runs isn't good for thrusters.

What engines are in this boat. Do they need 8Ds? I would replace atleast one engine alternator with a large frame continuous duty 200+ amp alternator (Leece Neville or Balmar) and Balmar external regulator. That's worth about 3 KW. Whatever you do for a house bank this alternator / regulator combination will handle charging and most DC loads.

Ted

The bow thruster and battery runs are already in place. The boat is used.
The engines are 387 hp Volvos. I believe they have a 180 amp alternator on them.

For this boat though, that will not as it will have two peplink cell systems and a sat com system, plus a full-size side by side fridge, two deep freezes, and Polycom virtual presence system, plus normal other systems. I looked at switching to an induction cooktop, but power-wise, it is quite large. So the cooktop and dryer I am converting over to gas.

 

[sandog]

It seems that you should be considering using hydraulics rather than batteries to power your thrusters and anchor winch. Makes the battery systems needed only for engine start, house loads and maybe a separate electronics less complicated. The solar cells would be nice and the large externally regulated alternators on each engine would be nice also.

I agree, I do wish the windlass and thrusters were hydraulic, but they are electric, and I have no plans to change them.

 

[DavidM]

You will get dozens of different answers to these questions. This isn't a trivial electrical redesign. Find a competent marine electrician with good solar skills. Then if you want, publish the plan here for comment.

David

 

[mvweebles]

have seen some decent reviews of SOK LiFePO4 batteries. Around $1000 for a 200ah battery.

For power monitoring, you can start with a Victron SmartShunt and go from there, though they are limited to 500 amps which you may be bumping up against. Blue Sea M2 monitors seem okay too. If your inverter is fairly new, it may have some optional monitoring capabilities

Can't help with solar panels except to state thenobvious: flexible are not as efficient and are prone to delamination. Please post updates if you find quality brands.

Lugging 8Ds into a boat is no easy feat. I don't think you mentioned your existing house bank.

I know it wasn't your original question (well, you did ask for 'any other feedback'), but I agree with others that you may want to expand scope of question to validate your overall design. Hard to imagine a scenario on a 100t/65-foot boat where powering a thruster (and presumably windlass) from batteries in the engine room is sensible. Also, 20kw of battery storage is a LOT so its understandable to question whether charging capacity is adequate. A lot would depend on your average daily energy consumption so maybe monitoring tools is your first step vs battery replacement. For off-grid energy, there comes a point where design is patterned off a house vs a vehicle.

6000 nm is a long trip. Please update. Too few cruising stories on TF....

Peter

 

[Russell Clifton]

Sounds like you may need the services of Oceanplanet Energy, Inc.
https://oceanplanetenergy.com/system-design-services/

 

[mvweebles]

Sounds like you may need the services of Oceanplanet Energy, Inc.

https://oceanplanetenergy.com/system-design-services/

At $200/hr (per their website), OP may well need a cardiologist too. They further state their backlog is big enough that they are no longer accepting new consulting gigs. Their systems look interesting but overly complex for my tastes. If something on a boat requires a $200/hr expert to design, after thr cardiologist, I would likely need a proctologist.

Peter.

 

[SailorGreg]

Hello. I know there is a lot of different threads trying to discuss this, but unfortunately none seem to fit my need close enough. I have a 65' power boat. It has two engines for prop power, smaller generators on them. It had one 20kw generator and one 5kw generator. Engine room is midship, and has bow and stern thrusters. The stern thruster, along with the batteries, are in the aft cabin. Bow thruster batteries are in the engine room.



All batteries need replacing. The engines and bow thruster I will run off of two 8d agm batteries. The stern thruster requires the same. Unless anybody has a better idea for this. The ship is 100tons, so the thrusters are a bit large.



Due to the need to take this on a 6000 mile journey, and just completing another 2000 mile journey on a different boat (52', 16kw generator and 2 MTU 900HP engines) I own where I had to run the generator nearly constantly, I have decided to make this boat much more self-sufficient for this journey.



I intend to add flexible solar panels to my hard bimini (16' x12') top (any good recommendations from aliexpress would be great). Also looking to perhaps add a wind generator. But looking to also add in ~20kw (+/- 5kw) worth of LiFePO4 battery banks (not looking to build from cells).



So my question is help with some of the suppliers, and any help with design considerations given I plan to have solar, wind, two different generators, plus AGm and LiFePO4 batteries.



I am sure I am missing out on a ton of details you will need to provide some feedback, but anything would be great! Also, if there is a good solution to monitor power usage, I am interested that as well.



Thank you in advance.

I think you a need your boat are long past KISS. Complex boat and systems and an objective that has significant technical issues. If OPE isn’t available, then I would highly recommend someone similar. Cay electronics in Newport, for example.
$200/ hr is nothing compared to the cost of getting it wrong.

 

[O C Diver]

The bow thruster and battery runs are already in place. The boat is used.
The engines are 387 hp Volvos. I believe they have a 180 amp alternator on them.

For this boat though, that will not as it will have two peplink cell systems and a sat com system, plus a full-size side by side fridge, two deep freezes, and Polycom virtual presence system, plus normal other systems. I looked at switching to an induction cooktop, but power-wise, it is quite large. So the cooktop and dryer I am converting over to gas.

The bow thruster cables off the house battery were already in place in my boat as well. Changing that poor design was quite simple. Is your bow thruster 24 VDC? Is the boat 12 or 24 volt?

Do you plan to anchor out much or travel from dock to dock? For all the appliances you have, it may make more sense to run the generator from dock to dock. If you plan to anchor out or just want to reduce generator time, the below may help.

Do you have an inverter system to run low consumption 120 VAC? On my boat, the items that require generator use are air conditioning, clothes washing and using the electric oven. Everything else can run off the inverter while underway and to some extent while anchored. Pretty simple to schedule laundry while making dinner or when air conditioning is needed. Obviously a great deal less generator time is needed when set up this way.

While I conceptually like a dryer that runs on propane, most dryers are located in places where a propane leak will settle into the bilge, a bad outcome. Doubt you will find an insurance company that will approve a gas dryer. Probably better to leave it electric.

Ted

 

[Capt Dan]

At $200/hr (per their website), OP may well need a cardiologist too. They further state their backlog is big enough that they are no longer accepting new consulting gigs. Their systems look interesting but overly complex for my tastes. If something on a boat requires a $200/hr expert to design, after thr cardiologist, I would likely need a proctologist.

Peter.

I tried using Ocean Planet a couple years ago, they flat out d me they were just too busy to take on my 37 ft boat. Oh, but that was after a couple months of getting spasmodic encouraging replies.

Too bad because they are about 35 minutes from my dirt home.

I ended up attending YOUTUBE U! Things have worked out fine.

Dan