Nordhavn 46

[Mako]

They seem to be great boats for the purpose of world exploration. Some would say they are the epitome of small passagemakers.

If you do not need that capability there are other choices that have larger (read more comfortable) interiors for the same or less money.

This is a good point about being truthful to yourself about what capabilities you really need in your boat. I've been learning first-hand about the compromises when designing a bluewater boat versus a long range coastal boat.

Think of the difference between a Nordy and a Hatteras LRC. The LRC can easily take you from east to west coast America, up to Alaska, etc. Probably do the Canada to Greenland to Europe crossing.

But for a Hawaii and Pacific and Atlantic crossing, or high latitudes like Patagonia and Cape Horn, a true bluewater like the Nordy would be a better fit.

But there is a big difference in the interior accommodations between the two.

It's nice to dream big, but even nicer to have the right boat that fits reality.

 

[Aquabelle]

I will get a copy of the book and read it.

I'll look into the stabilization issue further, but I don't think I could own a boat with such an installation. Fishing outriggers like on sport fishers, would be great, but I can't see having a boat that needs such an ungainly, ugly, and potentially-dangerous contraption. It's definitely a deal-killer for me.

Wow...that's the voice of ignorance right there. From the 1st post one can tell this is not likely to end well.

 

[OldDan1943]

HA HA I found a first edition of Voyage Under Power, no dust jacket
I also have a 3rd edition that I started to read because I made notes. Again, no dust jacket.
I thought I had lost them when the boat was damage.
Turns out, I took them back to my condo.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Took this a few years back on the floats in Craig Ak.

No boat is perfect but the N46 is some kind of standard. But if so where are the decendants. No boat in my recolection fits. All the other Nordhavns are kinda cookie cutter ugly and nearly void of saltyness that the 46 has in spades. So if the 46 was so great where are all the other boats trying to imitate her?
I've been aboard several and never have the feeling I get from seeing them in photos, from the dock and underway.

Dan my VUP is a third edition. I love having it there when I feel the need for it.
I love looking at the Seaton and Neville designs.

Sunchaser,
I have read that the latter Nordhavns are better boats. But not in much detail.

The only thing I actually don't like about the 46 is the detail shape of the stern. Hydrodynamically it's a good or perfect stern but it lacks the perfect look of the rest of the boat.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Wow...that's the voice of ignorance right there. From the 1st post one can tell this is not likely to end well.

WOW..........
The guy's got five posts into TF and he's already been called ignorant.

 

[OldDan1943]

WOW..........
The guy's got five posts into TF and he's already been called ignorant.

Yea, I thought it was more than a little condemnation.

Remember, ignorant can be fixed but there is no hope for stupid.

He just needs a ride on a boat in a storm to enlighten him.

 

[sunchaser]

Yea, I thought it was more than a little condemnation.

Remember, ignorant can be fixed but there is no hope for stupid.

He just needs a ride on a boat in a storm to enlighten him.

No storm needed. Just pick some benign weather and cruise from SoCal to Barclay Sound.

 

[Wxx3]

Get yourself a copy of "Voyaging Under Power", and be sure to get the 4th edition. It's less preachy, and more up to date. It will give you a really good baseline of info to work from. I'm not meaning to discourage you from asking questions, but rather think it will help jump start you faster.

The 46 is a great boat and had probably done more world cruising than any other boat it's size. And the Lugger is one of the best engines you could have.

That's where I started.
The stabilization gear that you think isn't needed, is ONLY needed if you don't want to roll your way across the Atlantic or Pacific.

Check out the Kadey Krogen 48.

 

[Benthic2]

You can be a very serious runner, and not run marathons; you can be an avid hiker, and not do the Appalachian Trail straight through; and you can do A LOT of boating without being an ocean crossing full time liveaboard cruiser.

I'm not suggesting you give up your dream, just suggesting that you may want to work your way up to it. There are many people that like the idea of boating and then realize it was not for them once they actually try it. You could settle in almost any coastal community and boat for quite a while before you got bored. Use that time to learn some of the associated skills like weather forecasting, navigation, diesel mechanics, inverter/battery/solar systems etc. As your abilities expand, so will your vessel and your horizons.

 

[OldDan1943]

When I had a hydraulically stabilized N46, my dream was to take it to Bermuda. First a trip to Mexico to pick up the fourth person. The a final out of water survey prior to Mexico. The yard man thought he could pull a jack before he first put in another jack. Boat fell over on port side and I suspect you heard the rest of the story before.

 

[Open-d]

Wow...that's the voice of ignorance right there. From the 1st post one can tell this is not likely to end well.

Didn't take long for the forum-bully to announce him or herself.

Mod, please cancel my accout.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Didn't take long for the forum-bully to announce him or herself.

Mod, please cancel my accout.

Yeah that comment was a bit harsh.

There are many different types of stabilizers. I wouldn't want to have to deal with paravanes either but that's just my personal preference. I've got bilge keels on my hull. They're like long shallow wings on each side of the hull. They don't work as well as active stabilizers but they work well enough for most of the fishing boats. Low cost compared to active stabilizers like computer controlled NAIADs - smaller wings, or gyros, like the Seakeepers.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have no idea what NAIADs will cost these days. 15 years ago, it was close to 30K installed.
I learned to appreciate the stabilizer when bringing the N46 down, outside. About 3-4 miles off shore, running parallel to shore, boat going up and down, burying the bow, some green water to the front pilot house windows..... did not roll. The stabilizers work fantastically.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I have no idea what NAIADs will cost these days. 15 years ago, it was close to 30K installed.
I learned to appreciate the stabilizer when bring the boat down, outside. About 3 miles off shore, parallel to shore, boat going up and down, some green water to the front pilot house windows..... did not roll. The stabilizers work fantastically.

I'll find out how well my bilge keels work when I run down to San Francisco next year. I'm actually pretty nervous about it.

 

[BandB]

Yeah that comment was a bit harsh.

There are many different types of stabilizers. I wouldn't want to have to deal with paravanes either but that's just my personal preference. I've got bilge keels on my hull. They're like long shallow wings on each side of the hull. They don't work as well as active stabilizers but they work well enough for most of the fishing boats. Low cost compared to active stabilizers like computer controlled NAIADs - smaller wings, or gyros, like the Seakeepers.

Yes, Aquabelle's post was harsh. But then there was some bit of truth and warning underneath it, just the presentation perhaps inappropriate. However, Open-d's response was equally over the top in packing up and leaving from one post. Had he felt the post was so horrible, reporting it would have been fine or just responding in a more gentlemanly tone to it.

Now, Open-d perhaps is gone now or perhaps not. One thing he didn't share at all at least to my knowledge was his experience, if any. Would have been helpful to have known. Aquabelle combined what he observed as a lack of knowledge and experience in the OP with the stated desire of cruising the Atlantic, Pacific, Med and South Pacific with his spouse in a 46' Nordhavn.

Now, it could be that Open-d is a lifelong experienced captain and any worry was unfounded, or it could be open-d was a newbie boater jumping way ahead of themselves into something that could be disaster. I don't know. I do know you won't last long here or on any forum or social media if one post you find offensive leads you to leave.

 

[hollywood8118]

I wonder how many fingers have been lost to such a rig!!

Anybody with a lick of sense will never loose more than one..
HOLLYWOOD

 

[BruceK]

Didn't take long for the forum-bully to announce him or herself. Mod, please cancel my accout.

Well no,Aquabelle has been here quite some time, I`don`t recall a previous post like that. Perhaps make an allowance and reconsider a hasty decision.
"Flopper Stoppers" may seem odd to you, and good looks is not an attribute. But they do serve a purpose,especially in rolly anchorages and otherwise,and are used by long range cruisers. They have the advantage of not needing power,electrical or hydraulic,unlike stabilizers like Naiad, etc. Perhaps unfamiliarity led you to a hasty conclusion.

 

[Aquabelle]

Well no,Aquabelle has been here quite some time, I`don`t recall a previous post like that. Perhaps make an allowance and reconsider a hasty decision.
"Flopper Stoppers" may seem odd to you, and good looks is not an attribute. But they do serve a purpose,especially in rolly anchorages and otherwise,and are used by long range cruisers. They have the advantage of not needing power,electrical or hydraulic,unlike stabilizers like Naiad, etc. Perhaps unfamiliarity led you to a hasty conclusion.

I have p.m'd an apology. I hadn't intended to offend but on review my phrasing was pretty poor.

 

[OldDan1943]

I'll find out how well my bilge keels work when I run down to San Francisco next year. I'm actually pretty nervous about it.

Did the bilge keels come with the boat or did the PO or perhaps you designed and install them?

 

[sunchaser]

Anybody with a lick of sense will never loose more than one..
HOLLYWOOD

My foggy memory recalls:

A tragedy about 15 years ago when a vessel (Nordhavn) departing a Caribbean (?) anchorage deployed the fins and snagged another's anchor line. The wife noting a vessel headed for them on a collision course tried to, by hand, fend off the rapidly approaching vessel.

What the woman didn't know was that their vessel's recently deployed stabilizer had snagged the approaching vessel's anchor line. The wife was killed. Numerous write ups described the event. We were boat shopping at the time. We steered away from a very nice vessel with chain attached stabilizers and bought a new vessel with active stabilizers.

The OP has a very valid concern IMHO.

 

[DavidM]

One point that hasn't been mentioned amidst all of the angst noted above is that hydraulic stabilizers don't have a good track record for reliability for long distance passages . Of the 20 some odd boats that participated in the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally some years ago, the hydraulic stabilizers had some degree of failure in half the boats. It took several Naid techs that met the boats in Bermuda and the Azores to keep them running. Some were completely rebuilt.



I don't think the Nordhavn 46s equipped with paravanes had any failures.


I think that hydraulic stabilizers are fine for near coastal cruising where comfort is paramount and if necessary you can tuck in to a nearby port for repairs. But if I were going to explore the seven seas on a Nordhavn 46, I would want paravane stabilizers.


David

 

[sunchaser]

(Where did that emoticon come from)

David

Good point.

One issue that some earlier Nordhavn dry stack vessels suffered from was an adequate and reliable cooling water supply for the hydraulic system. Wet exhaust systems have a ready supply of water. But the plumbing needs to be done right.

Recently when doing some troubleshooting on a new installation the cooling water lines were too small and plumbed incorrectly. It took some prodding to get the large yard to realize their error.

When doing the design on these systems an oversized heat exchanger is a good idea. As well, the hydraulic heat exchanger requires routine cleaning - often overlooked.

 

[twistedtree]

The stabilizers in the Atlantic Ralley were early on in the use of stabilizers in boats like this, and really shouldn't be used to project current reliability. The only stabilizer issues I hear about today are on boats of that same earlier generation still using the original Naiad set up. Pumps were under sized, pump drives were under sized, cooling was under sized, and on a crossing you would discover all that. Many of the older generation have since been updated, and on newer boats this is almost never an issue. Pumps are big, they are all gear driven not belt driven, cooling is via keel cooler or raw water heat exchanger with hydraulic or electric pump, and they are super reliable. They do require periodic maintenance, as does any piece of equipment, but beside that, they are pretty darn trouble free.

 

[twistedtree]

Follow on to stabilizer reliability, a friend crossed the pacific about a year ago with an older Naiad system similar to those that has issues in the NAR. They had never had any stabilizer issues until their crossing.


The killer was that for a long crossing, they were running very slow to get the needed range, so the engine was loping along at a much lower rpm than usual. But at the same time, the stabilizers were working harder than usual, both because the slower the boat is moving the more they have to work, and because they were out in the middle of the pacific.


The pump, because it was also turning slower than usual, was having trouble keeping up with the flow demand from the fins. The pump was sized for "normal" operation, but undersized for a slow crossing.


The pump drive was a belt system, and it was struggling too since the pump was demanding full power, but at a very low rpm. They were experiencing belt slippage, and I think ultimately had a belt failure. Again, it was because this early system was under designed for such a use.

I think cooling was also impaired, again because everything was running slower than usual, and working harder than usual.

They have since fixed all this, and are running trouble free.

On a current installation, the pump is gear PTO driven, and can deliver way, way more HP than the pump demands. And the pumps are variable displacement, so they can deliver massive oil flow even at idle rpm, and back off as needed at higher rpm. And cooling is similarly over sized. My oil temp never got above 90-100f. I was actually worried it was running too cool.

So I think worst case on an older boat with Naiads you might need to upgrade the pump and drive system, and up-size the cooling. That should do it, if it hasn't already been done. I think you will find all ABT setups over engineered from the factory no mater what vintage, with no changes required.

 

[sunchaser]

On a current installation, the pump is gear PTO driven, and can deliver way, way more HP than the pump demands. And the pumps are variable displacement, so they can deliver massive oil flow even at idle rpm, and back off as needed at higher rpm. And cooling is similarly over sized. My oil temp never got above 90-100f. I was actually worried it was running too cool.

So I think worst case on an older boat with Naiads you might need to upgrade the pump and drive system, and up-size the cooling. That should do it, if it hasn't already been done. I think you will find all ABT setups over engineered from the factory no mater what vintage, with no changes required.

Sounds similar to our Wesmar setup. Gear driven via PTO hydraulic pump and cooling water plumbed into the engine raw water system. Temperatures of oil are always in the 105F range. The Vickers hydraulic pump also can be manually adjusted for pressure output. Nary an issue in nearly 15 years of service.

TT, what brand of hydraulic PTO pump will you be using on new build?

 

[Mako]

Considering the $50-60k cost for a new stabilizer install, one should also investigate gyro stabilizers. Electric power is engine driven when underway or generator supplied when at anchor and needing roll reduction. No fuel or speed penalty.

 

[JDCAVE]

One point that hasn't been mentioned amidst all of the angst noted above is that hydraulic stabilizers don't have a good track record for reliability for long distance passages ...I don't think the Nordhavn 46s equipped with paravanes had any failures.

I think that hydraulic stabilizers are fine for near coastal cruising where comfort is paramount and if necessary you can tuck in to a nearby port for repairs. But if I were going to explore the seven seas on a Nordhavn 46, I would want paravane stabilizers.

David

I’m aware of two KK42’s that had paravane failures on trans-ocean crossings. In these cases, I believe these may have been design failures. Perhaps Richard could expand further . Neither were the A-frame design that are more common on KK42s but were yard-built designs.

The forces on paravanes in high seas are considerable, and should be carefully considered in the design phase. Also, stays are cheap to replace, <$200. Spare paravanes, stays and chains should be carried on trans-Ocean crossings.

Both systems have their own advantages and disadvantages. Either system can fail at the most inopportune times.

Jim

 

[Civilitas]

20+ years ago I went to a used book "detective" over in Newport Beach area and hunted down an original copy of Beebe's book. I like it better than all the new and upgraded editions which seem like Passagemaker advertising.

That's a good idea.

I read the 4th edition and all of Umstot and Leishman's editorializing started to just get nauseating pretty quickly. I started skipping it, but it still really disrupted the flow of the book. Felt a bit like someone took a crayon to a Jackson Pollock painting, or stuck a bad MTV video in the middle of the Super Bowl. Oh, wait a minute, they do those things now...

 

[gsholz]

I always had a soft spot for the 46 so I was seriously looking at a couple of them last year. My conclusion was, if you must cross oceans, a well maintained 46 will do it. For us it was not a good fit.

As a coastal cruiser it presented too many compromises. Aside from the tiny cockpit, there is little outdoor space. The interior is way too cramped for us. At 6'4" crawling into the engine hole (not a room or even a compartment) at sea would be a nightmare, not much better when docked. Maintenance would be a pain. Some 46s have very steep stairs from the pilot house to the front stateroom. Too dangerous for us. Every nook and cranny was overstuffed with equipment. The mast compression load brace straddling the engine was designed by someone with no engineering background (triangles will carry loads, pentagons will collapse/flex).

We looked at two early 90's models (400k range) and they did not age well. Extensive leaks damaged a lot of the woodwork. On one, even the originally stout rub rail had broken off on the port side during the last haul out. Pressure from the slings had caused the rotten rub rail base to give way. It was being repaired. I'm sure well taken care of 46s exist but probably not at the price point we were looking.

 

[twistedtree]

I think the complaint you are hearing, and will hear about the 46 is that it's a 25-30 year old design. So the design is a bit dated by current standards, and boat condition can vary quite a bit. I expect most are very well cared for, but they are still 25-30 years old. Also, at least in my opinion, 46' of anything is a very small package to stuff everything to make a passage maker.


The 46, like the earlier editions of Beebe's book, are from an era where people were proving that small power boat crossings were possible. It was about showing that it could be done. Now, 30 years later, everyone accepts that it can be done, and it's all about optimizing how it should best be done. Newer boats reflect those refinements, but cost considerably more. And budgets are always a factor.