Long Range Cruising - How big is too big?

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twistedtree said:
Another thing to consider is that when you exceed 20m in length you trigger a bunch of new regs and requirements. The rules vary widely, but it’s a magic number. Most notable in my experience so far is mandatory VTS participation in many areas. You take the fist step across the line from recreational operation to professional operation. I have heard that in some areas it triggers licensing requirements as well.
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Good intel, thank you.
 
2savage said:
Circling back a little, is this going to be your first boat? 99.99% of people who do what you are planning to do have owned many boats beforehand. I have owned ten or eleven and have worked my way up to my current boat which displaces 100,000 LBS. After 45 or more years on the water even my current boat has my utmost respect. Although you say you will always be at anchor when not running, there will be times when you must come alongside a dock for fuel, water and such. The momentum of 100,000 LBS doing just 1/2 a knot is massive. I've seen inexperienced dock hands secure a line on a cleat when such a vessel still has momentum, and the cleat was ripped out of the dock and became a lethal projectile. My point is, you don't just jump into boat ownership without the required experience to handle the boat you buy. Acquiring the needed experience takes years. So plan on getting this experience now so that when time comes to own a large lump of steel you are up to the task.
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Absolutely great points. Over the next 9 years, I have every intention of getting tons of documented time on similar sized vessels, and getting licensed myself. I've had boats and been on the water for the last 15 years...granted, 30' is the biggest I've had but I have 9 years to build relevant experience.
 
DBL said:
Hi, your original post is very interesting, and has sparked a lot of useful comments. I'd like to offer you a resource that might help you think about your plan from a different perspective.

Robert Beebe was a US Navy captain who spent a lot of his free time sketching out ocean-crossing power boats as a way of thinking about traveling the world with his wife after the war. His book "Voyaging Under Power" is an easy read, with good illustrations.

I highly recommend the book as part of your project development library.

I really like that he took the time to work out the hull shape, berthing, meal prep, power and displacement issues on paper - then put his own time and money into building a boat that he and his wife (along with a few friends) sailed comfortably for tens of thousands of miles.

I first read "Voyaging Under Power" after spending several years owning and running shrimp trawlers out of different packing houses from New Orleans to Key West to Savannah. I'm a practical guy, and I found that I really liked the way Captain Beebe thought about building economical boats that could get the job done.

I hope you have a good time planning your project, and that you can spend some time soon on boats that will help you see what works for you.
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Great info! I already have a copy sitting on my coffee table, it's next up in the reading list. Glad you recommended it as well.
 
Ok so initial budget is sub $100k? Two other important numbers: what is your regit budget (assuming it is over those 9 years) and what is your annual budget once you start cruising? I noticed you mentioned intent to gain experience on similar sizes boats. Check with several good insurance brokers as I suspect they will require actual ownership of similar sized boats and not just experience on them.
 
Sorry, typo. Should read refit budget.
 
The biggest we had was 28.95m for two people on board is too much, the biggest we use during two year was 26.86m for two people it was not easy and at this time we was 28 years younger...
Our former Long-Cours 62' was perfect for us.
Our actual 72' could be perfect if : less draft (say under 1.30m), less air draft( under 3.40m), less beamy (under 5.05m), smaller engine ( don't need 2x700 hp), lighter by at less 20 t :)
 
BandB said:
If trying to do a lot of DIY, even just cleaning, you can become boat crew very quickly rather than boaters.

Everyone has a size at which it no longer feels like boating.

They are limited on time and have no desire to spend the time for an ocean crossing.
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Bold, for emphasis.

Good point to understand. Our limit isn't exactly defined by size, but rather by crew needs (which is sorta similar anyway). If we need crew to operate, it's not our style of boating. I'm not buying a boat to let someone else (other than wifey) drive it.

And then there's a mindset issue. Is DIY maintenance boating? Or not. (I tell myself it is... to justify the time I spend "enjoying" al that cleaning, repair, replace, upgrade stuff I mentioned earlier.)

We're not crossing any oceans on anything smaller than Royal Clipper. That's a much less expensive way to do it, too. :)

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
... If we need crew to operate, it's not our style of boating. I'm not buying a boat to let someone else (other than wifey) drive it.
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Eschewing the trends of billionaire contemporaries to construct mammoth yachts, Paul Dejoria (Patron Tequila fame) did a total restoration of a 57-foot Chris Craft Constellation as his personal yacht. Why? Because he likes to drive his own boat, and he didn't want to necessarily have crew aboard.

https://robbreport.com/motors/marine/boating-in-the-stars-230038/


He chose the CC Connie because "That’s what the Kennedys had. It’s what Sinatra had. It’s what Elvis had."

It's currently for sale for $1m and purportedly had $2m spent in refit. It's been for sale for a while, likely due to being a woodie (recent re-fastening).

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1968-chris--craft-57-constellation-7838901/

Gotta like the guy.....


Peter
 
long-cours.62 said:
The biggest we had was 28.95m for two people on board is too much, the biggest we use during two year was 26.86m for two people it was not easy and at this time we was 28 years younger...
Our former Long-Cours 62' was perfect for us.
Our actual 72' could be perfect if : less draft (say under 1.30m), less air draft( under 3.40m), less beamy (under 5.05m), smaller engine ( don't need 2x700 hp), lighter by at less 20 t :)
Click to expand...


Funny how different we all are.

First off to address OP’s question, I believe 50ft is the minimum realistic size for long term blue water cruising to remote areas. Max size is the 19.8. meter (65 ft) threshold. Mine was that size and I could easily operate and maintain it by myself.

Regarding to @LC’s comments, I go the other direction and would say ideally 40 tons on 50ft with a 5-6 ft draft. On 65ft looking at 6-7 ft draft. However my interest is not European canals.

And IMO I’d want a single powered at 3hp per ton displacement, M1 rating, running about 70% at cruise speed. Bow thruster. No stern thruster, but fit a fishtail to your rudder.

Regarding to a 95ft boat with two people, well @LC, I have to admit you had a lot of guts!

OP, forget about supply vessels.
 
The original post mentioned big enough to carry a dinghy along with something larger. I would suggest determining what you really want along those lines, down to the specific boat. Then make sure what you plan to buy has the capability to haul those on board with considerable ease and safety. They are essentially equivalent to your automobile on land.

Also, as mentioned, draft is something to pay particular attention. I've cruised the Bahamas for years and would not want anything more than 6 ft.

One other consideration. Cashing out of a 401K all at once could have unpleasant tax consequences. You worked hard for it, why give any of it back that you don't have to. Maybe you're in such a high tax bracket that it doesn't matter anyway, but worth looking into.
 
IMO Mako's post hit the nail on the head. At 50' and 40 tons two people can just about manage. Storage should be enough and 50 ton travelifts are common. My own boat is heavier and required that the anchor rode and fuel be offloaded before being moved by a 50 ton lift. Extra work but saved $$$ because we could be hauled at a regular Marina not one specifically for super yachts.
 
OP, check out YachtSalvage.com for some 'need fixing-up' bargains.

They get some interesting boats on there, especially after a U.S. based hurricane.
 
Beebe Design, and Voyaging Under Power"

I second the recommendation on reading Voyaging Under Power! But I have to admit, I'm kind of biased since we own a Beebe 50.
I would recommend one of the earlier editions, as the later editions have been abridged/taken over to be an advertisement for another brand of boat . . . .

Best of luck in your search!


DBL said:
Hi, your original post is very interesting, and has sparked a lot of useful comments. I'd like to offer you a resource that might help you think about your plan from a different perspective.

Robert Beebe was a US Navy captain who spent a lot of his free time sketching out ocean-crossing power boats as a way of thinking about traveling the world with his wife after the war. His book "Voyaging Under Power" is an easy read, with good illustrations.

I highly recommend the book as part of your project development library.

I really like that he took the time to work out the hull shape, berthing, meal prep, power and displacement issues on paper - then put his own time and money into building a boat that he and his wife (along with a few friends) sailed comfortably for tens of thousands of miles.

I first read "Voyaging Under Power" after spending several years owning and running shrimp trawlers out of different packing houses from New Orleans to Key West to Savannah. I'm a practical guy, and I found that I really liked the way Captain Beebe thought about building economical boats that could get the job done.

I hope you have a good time planning your project, and that you can spend some time soon on boats that will help you see what works for you.
Click to expand...
 
HarebrainedScheme said:
Great info. Insurance is one of the big issues I foresee, and will be taking steps over the next 9 years to ensure I've got plenty of experience on vessels of similar size.
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You've got an insurance problem before then I have to warn you about.

I don't know where you intend to work on the boat, but you may need a permit and you definitely need insurance, which may be difficult to arrange. You'll also have a problem when first launching the boat, if it hasn't been cleared previously by government or insurance. You face the "Insurer won't insure until it's proven in water and yards won't launch until it's insured."

Then you're not the only insurance challenge, the boat is. It will be subject to many who won't insure because of age or builder.
 
2savage said:
IMO Mako's post hit the nail on the head. At 50' and 40 tons two people can just about manage. Storage should be enough and 50 ton travelifts are common. My own boat is heavier and required that the anchor rode and fuel be offloaded before being moved by a 50 ton lift. Extra work but saved $$$ because we could be hauled at a regular Marina not one specifically for super yachts.
Click to expand...



Good point in haulouts. Facilities drop off rapidly as you get over 50-70 tons. It’s a much less frequent issue, but much more of a challenge that dock space.
 
mvweebles said:
Eschewing the trends of billionaire contemporaries to construct mammoth yachts, Paul Dejoria (Patron Tequila fame) did a total restoration of a 57-foot Chris Craft Constellation as his personal yacht. Why? Because he likes to drive his own boat, and he didn't want to necessarily have crew aboard.

https://robbreport.com/motors/marine/boating-in-the-stars-230038/


He chose the CC Connie because "That’s what the Kennedys had. It’s what Sinatra had. It’s what Elvis had."

It's currently for sale for $1m and purportedly had $2m spent in refit. It's been for sale for a while, likely due to being a woodie (recent re-fastening).

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1968-chris--craft-57-constellation-7838901/

Gotta like the guy.....


Peter
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I admire his passion and journey but it was personal not universal. Besides being wood, it’s not a very livable boat. The interior salon doesn’t have the visibility one wants now, nor for example any way to carry a meaningful tender. Even the electronics are old for the price. I’d say half the ask and it’s a limited market.
 
bowball said:
I admire his passion and journey but it was personal not universal. Besides being wood, it’s not a very livable boat. The interior salon doesn’t have the visibility one wants now, nor for example any way to carry a meaningful tender. Even the electronics are old for the price. I’d say half the ask and it’s a limited market.
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The tender problem is easily solved. Add davits. The rest is a little more of an issue though.
 
bowball said:
I admire his passion and journey but it was personal not universal. Besides being wood, it’s not a very livable boat. The interior salon doesn’t have the visibility one wants now, nor for example any way to carry a meaningful tender. Even the electronics are old for the price. I’d say half the ask and it’s a limited market.
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Here in SW BC we see few older CCs, but for comparative purposes only, a wooden Monk McQueen in that or bigger size, newly refit, will go at 1/2 that price, and in discounted $Cdn.
 
HarebrainedScheme said:
Great info! I already have a copy sitting on my coffee table, it's next up in the reading list. Glad you recommended it as well.
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There are 3 editions of that book; I read the 3rd edition cover to cover and thoroughly (!!!) enjoyed it. It made me want to do what you are planning….

The 3rd edition was updated/revised I THINK in the 1990s. The wife of The man that updated it wrote articles for a magazine. She put the articles together ( with lots of other writing) into a book. Title was something like “cruising the Mediterranean under power….” Or something like that.

That book threw cold water on any dreams I had. Or maybe I should say a cold dose of reality! My wife would NOT last very long! WAY TOO MUCH LIKE WORK!!! That book also talked about crossing borders, custom officials, paperwork…..

I still dream occasionally. Then I see the book Somewhere in the house ( never finished the last couple chapters- I fell out of love….) and know it is just a daydream for me….

I wish you best and success!!! Then come here and tell us about it!!!
 
Go straight to the 4th edition of Voyaging Under Power. The previous editions, though interesting from an historical perspective, are completely dated. They still have too much of the initial preaching from Beebe about how it's possible to cross oceans in a small power boat. Yes, got it, message received. Point well proven. Next?


It's now about how to do it with greater comfort, and better livability at both ends of the ocean crossing since that's where you spend the vast majority of your time.
 
twistedtree said:
Go straight to the 4th edition of Voyaging Under Power. The previous editions, though interesting from an historical perspective, are completely dated. They still have too much of the initial preaching from Beebe about how it's possible to cross oceans in a small power boat. Yes, got it, message received. Point well proven. Next?


It's now about how to do it with greater comfort, and better livability at both ends of the ocean crossing since that's where you spend the vast majority of your time.
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It seems that so many crossing have wanted to be Martyrs and expound on what a horrible trip it was, only trying to prove they could do it. The intent should be to do so comfortably for all aboard, to make it an enjoyable crossing. Unfortunately, that requires more...more boat, more equipment, more people.
 
BandB said:
It seems that so many crossing have wanted to be Martyrs and expound on what a horrible trip it was, only trying to prove they could do it. The intent should be to do so comfortably for all aboard, to make it an enjoyable crossing. Unfortunately, that requires more...more boat, more equipment, more people.
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if done correctly you will also need carpet slippers and a stylish dressing gown.
 
When we were looking for Fintry, we looked at a couple of fish boats. As a rule, they are deeper than you want to be -- in the 10-12 foot range. Even if you always anchor out, we learned on our circumnav that 7-8 feet feet is about the limit. And, the extra draft increases wetted surface which, in turn, increases fuel consumption.



Dee and I ran Fintry for 17 years, including an Atlantic crossing and a 5,000 mile trip to the five Great Lakes, about 20,000 miles altogether. She's 79 feet, 150 tons displacement. As a rule larger boats are easier because they are more stable. She's now for sale because we're in our late 70s and her home marina deteriorated to the point that we could no longer live aboard there.


Fintry had 64 sisters -- several are gone, but you could one of them for $200,000 or so and refit to meet your needs. Alternately, you could buy Fintry -- more money, but much better equipped.


I agree wholeheartedly that 100 feet is too much. I see little advantage over maybe 80-85 feet. I also agree that you want a single screw. Much better fuel economy and much better protection for the propeller. I see no need for a stern thruster -- with her 5 foot propeller and rudder to match, the propwash pushes the stern in very easily. I can parallel park her in a 90 foot hole very easily, and in smaller holes if there's little wind or current.


Jim
 
When you get your boat and then shove off for that wonderful boating trip,
at the age where you might not want to spend "working" on this boat, and the one person who can and will have to manage everything by one's self, then there's the compatibility thing... getting down and out on each other where things said and done in the heat of the moment can last forever, and then there's the possibility of being robbed... by officials somewhere that are really anal and you're a long way from home, then there's the possibility of really getting sick ... I mean really sick, having to think... "what's for dinner, over and over again," can be old news after a while.... heck... I was on a troop ship for three freak'n weeks and I still hate SPAM and watching somebody sling hash. Then there's staying in the same clothes for a week or two .. straight, being with somebody that hasn't showered in five days, sunburns are a pain, along with a cold and sniffles that just won't clear up, even worse being with someone that just won't blow their freak'n nose for hours on end, or how about forgetting your wallet, watch, sunglasses, hat, someplace that you just left .. oh, about three hours out to sea, then there's the sea birds that'll crap all over you and your mate just when you settled in for a nice lunch on an open deck. Oh... by the way... have a nice trip.
 
john-o said:
When you get your boat and then shove off for that wonderful boating trip,
at the age where you might not want to spend "working" on this boat, and the one person who can and will have to manage everything by one's self, then there's the compatibility thing... getting down and out on each other where things said and done in the heat of the moment can last forever, and then there's the possibility of being robbed... by officials somewhere that are really anal and you're a long way from home, then there's the possibility of really getting sick ... I mean really sick, having to think... "what's for dinner, over and over again," can be old news after a while.... heck... I was on a troop ship for three freak'n weeks and I still hate SPAM and watching somebody sling hash. Then there's staying in the same clothes for a week or two .. straight, being with somebody that hasn't showered in five days, sunburns are a pain, along with a cold and sniffles that just won't clear up, even worse being with someone that just won't blow their freak'n nose for hours on end, or how about forgetting your wallet, watch, sunglasses, hat, someplace that you just left .. oh, about three hours out to sea, then there's the sea birds that'll crap all over you and your mate just when you settled in for a nice lunch on an open deck. Oh... by the way... have a nice trip.
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All certainly possible, but with good planning and good choices of companions, almost entirely avoidable. We spent two and half year on a circumnav on a sailboat and 13 years cruising Fintry, seven of which we lived aboard, and avoided almost all of the problems listed above. Getting sick cannot be completely avoided, but the chances can certainly be minimized.



Jim
 
I don't think length matters except for dock space. Commercial fuel docks are easy to tie up. And you don't want to buy fuel from a marina anyway. I've been mostly on the water since 1961 and my smallest and first power boat was 65 feet. If you're going to anchor, travel the ocean, the bigger, the better as far as comfort, accommodations, and fuel storage.
Building a boat or rebuilding a large boat is a project needing 100s if not 1000s of hours. I have built many vessels. Mostly commercial fishing, as a yard owner - several, part of a building crew - many, as a 2 man team - 3, and alone - 2. You can't imagine the hours needed. Plan on 10+ hours a day for years. And the equipment needed to do a proper job in a timely fashion costs big $.
My advice is buy a commercial fishing vessel. It's already built for the ocean. Most have several tons of concrete and lead below the fish hole. They come with all the basic system needs, main engine, generator, anchoring system, water and fuel tanks, etc. Heavy things you add should be as low in the hull as possible. A single main is better for long ocean voyages, but I traveled from the West Coast tuna fishing to 1500km NW of Midway Island with a twin screw boat. At the time there was a tuna buy boat at Midway we could refuel from. And the tuna paid my fuel bill, diesel was about 30¢/gallon on the mainland.
 
Lepke said:
I don't think length matters except for dock space.
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For the most part, I agree. Layout and design matters as much or more for number of crew needed and effort of operation. The time length is most problematic is if you want to travel to places that can only accommodate a boat so large, or through places like the Canadian canals that have length limitations due to infrastructure.
 
rslifkin said:
For the most part, I agree. Layout and design matters as much or more for number of crew needed and effort of operation. The time length is most problematic is if you want to travel to places that can only accommodate a boat so large, or through places like the Canadian canals that have length limitations due to infrastructure.
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And this is a reminder of the reality, there is not one boat best suited to all uses. The best boat for crossing oceans will not be ideal, if even usable, for canals and ICW and some coastal cruising. Either you get the boat ideal for one main use and not usable for others or you get one that is a compromise for all potential uses. Perhaps, not the best for crossing oceans, but the best that can also cruise the canals. People regularly coming here looking for the ideal boat and boats are only ideal for certain uses and certain people.

All boat purchasers or builders need to recognize this. Decide what is most important, then determine how you'll live with the rest.
 
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