Isn't boating an essential activity?

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. k. I suppose it will be a TRUE measure of society as to how those who need help get it.

 

[Rufus]

https://www.pennlive.com/coronavirus/2020/04/with-pa-meat-packing-workers-getting-covid-19-is-the-food-supply-safe.html[/url]

What's the plan when U.S. aircraft carrier, air wing, and submarine crews are decimated by this virus....

 

[angus99]

What's the plan when U.S. aircraft carrier, air wing, and submarine crews are decimated by this virus....

Relieve anybody of command who might advocate solutions that embarrass the shameless?

 

[jhance]

From what I am seeing, this is an enforcement issue. We could do what you are saying, and most people would probably be responsible about it, but then you have maybe 10% who don't care and will do whatever they want. So we have to put the entire population in lockdown because we don't trust the 10%. Enforcement could go a long way, but how do you do that? Local police, National Guard? Lots of people are out of work, maybe set up a county-based "enforcement force" and give people some jobs. I'm not talking about heavy-handed policing... more just educating unless blatant breaking the "we'll open things back up but here are the rules" laws. They would remind people of social distancing, report cheaters, etc. When there is a problem it gets reported to the police. Lots of options here, and you could open back up much of what is closed. Yes, it may be weird to have the "enforcement force" always around, lurking, watching. But no different than a security guard at a mall or a park ranger at a park. But you know what, I'd much rather deal with that than what we have going on now. At least many places could be open.

Thinking outside the box here. We need more clever solutions. We aren't being creative, and this problem is not being MANAGED. It's either lockdown or no lockdown. Black or white. A broad lockdown may be prudent in an extreme case and/or in extreme areas, but come on government - is this the best we can do? Really?

So anyone who is working and has not been tested is "Selfish" ? But those preaching from their couch and relying on data that is miserably flawed are right because they think they are compliant?

Go to Target, Costco, Safeway, Albertsons, do you really believe these people are buying "essentials" or just using this designation to get their normal goods? Such Hypocrisy. Nobody here is really following stay at home orders as they were meant to be yet politicians have directed the police to ticket those alone in the ocean on a kayak yet let people flock to stores to buy strawberry's and ice cream? People I know go to the store at least 3 times a week here.

So it seems in your eyes it's only the people who work, want to work or think that the shut down was done totally wrong and with too big of a brush are spreading the virus?

If you monitored what people bought and limited them to only "essentials" limited them to how many trips they could make maybe then you would think this is an overstep of government? Or how about this not let people go to the store simply hand out food.. Then would it be too big of a step?

Why not let the low risk people go back to work keeping washing and distance rules in place even masks and gloves in certain cases. Then really clamped down on the high risk people that means you if your over 60, or have any pre existing health issues and so on.

We make laws based on Age as it is, we also make laws based on Region and populations why do this any different?

What if by region we made Non Group Outdoor activities ok, then put high risk people on total lock down. Then had Everyone else use safety measures. The majority of our population would be working, and the health of our population would be in much better shape both for Covid 19 and other issues.

 

[MurrayM]

The CDC data shows how disproportional the death numbers are as far as old people being the majority of cases where someone died same as with the flu virus.

Care to flesh that out? Yes, older people are more affected, but not the same as influenza; the mortality rate is approximately 10 times worse with Covid-19.

Stop pretending that everyone here who gets the virus dies that's total BS. Remember we have a large population that could be positive with zero symptoms.

Never said that. Canadian officials have estimated 30% of Canadians (10 million-ish people) may get infected with our physical distancing measures taken into account and if no vaccine is found. That's 100,000 deaths at a 1% mortality rate, so approximately 1,000,000 in the USA because you have 10 times our population. Will take over a year in successive waves. The numbers and bodies can pile up.

A meat packing place has problems in SD so address that facility and find out what's going on then make the decisions based on your scientific findings not shut down every meat packer in the United States.

Never said that either. They are getting shut down one by one as Covid-19 works it's way through the workers. Point being, they are examples of what whole cities could face without physical distancing measures.

Anyway MurrayM if you want to further debate me send me a PM and later this evening I would enjoy that.

Sorry, prefer an open exchange of ideas amongst all our friends here on TF.

Be safe and have a great day off the water!

Wrong again! We live in a small town at the end of a side road on the least densely populated part of British Columbia's north coast. It's a 10 minute drive to the marina, and last time I was there, there were less than ten vehicles in the part of the parking lot where people go to their boats and met nobody either in the parking lot or on the floats.

Plan to have a great day of physical distancing on the water

 

[Northern Spy]

Thinking outside the box here. We need more clever solutions. We aren't being creative, and this problem is not being MANAGED. It's either lockdown or no lockdown. Black or white. A broad lockdown may be prudent in an extreme case and/or in extreme areas, but come on government - is this the best we can do? Really?

Politicians and governments have been conditioned to work expediently to make problems go away by application of the precautionary principle for the last five, or more likely ten, years.

The precautionary principle is the idea is that we should take steps to protect against potential harm(s), even if causal factors are unclear or ill-defined and even if we do not know the harms will manifest themselves. Because risks are on all sides, the precautionary principle forbids action, inaction, and everything in between. The only way the deal with a crisis is to not move forward, rather just ban it.

Most activists know how to paralyze governments and corporations by application of the precautionary principle as our courts cannot logically deal with it, and the public is too illogical and uniformed to think rationally of the consequences of it's application.

Governments have been on the precautionary principle bandwagon for so long, that none of them actually know how to manage risks anymore. Because the precautionary principal is an expedient tool (and excuse) to give the uniformed public (but mostly militant activists) what they want (or think they want) and make the problem "go away" so they can go back to important things, like getting re-elected and pandering to lobbyists.

As it turns out, it is so much easier to ban things (or pretend to ban things) than it is to manage them and it also affords the politicians to protect their image from a rabid and unchallenged press. Crisis never solved, but crisis always averted. The cynic in me would add “crisis created” or “crisis never existed” when I think of same-sex bathrooms and most other (post) modern crises.

So COVID 19 comes along. Well, now we have a real problem. Or do we? The WHO is unsure. So let’s monitor (ignore) it for a while. Nope, it isn’t just going to go away.

So the politicians turn to their civil servants and doctors who tell them that everything has to shut down in the world to keep us all safe. Civil servants who have the cushiest defined benefit pensions provided by the strongest unions, some getting paid leave of absence. Doctors who have never had to fear unemployment due to a downturn in the economy.

Knee jerk reaction. Engage The Precautionary Principle. Lock down the country. Let the chips fall where they may...

Many pundits discuss how Singapore, Korea and Japan have done so well because of testing. Well it wasn’t just testing. Testing was one of the ways that they MANAGED the problem. They saw though the data and protected those that statistically need protection. They did not immediately revert to application of the precautionary principle, because that is not how their governments respond,nor is it the expectation of the public. I would also say that their problem was easier as their general cardio vascular health is better and there is less diabetes in their population; we all know the word now, comorbidities.

Sweden is taking another route in how it is managing things. They're not. They are requesting that the people do the right thing. Interesting, and I honestly hope it works.

The scary application of the precautionary principle comes when we are looking for a solution to COVID-19. As it is currently, the precautionary principle is used by the anti-vaxxers and their autism claims.

It is impossible to foresee all possible adverse reactions that the COVID vaccine might cause without actually testing it on humans. I certainly hope that the initial clinical trials go well, without minor or major issues, as the trials must occur as the benefits to the world outweigh the risks. The reality is that there may be unintended side effects or complications even once it is approved and the people are immunized with it.

In conclusion, (yes, I know this is a rant) the western world has been sold the lie that life is risk free and we can mitigate all negative consequences by application of the precautionary principle.

 

[Rufus]

Relieve anybody of command who might advocate solutions that embarrass the shameless?

Flip answer to a serious question.

 

[angus99]

Flip answer to a serious question.

Sorry, I’m not military as my simplistic answer no doubt conveys.

It’s hard for me to believe that the Navy doesn’t have ship-specific pandemic plans. It would seem that abundant, constant testing, quick, decisive quarantining, mandatory face masks and massive, ongoing decontamination are the only things that could keep something as massive and confined as a warship from losing a major portion of its crew to the virus.

That apparently didn’t happen with the TR and I’m not about to play armchair quarterback—except for the politically motivated decision to relieve the captain. Maybe we’ll see an official report that lays out out what did happen and what should have.

So what do you think?

 

[O C Diver]

Given the relatively short life of the virus on most surfaces, it would seem removing the crew from the ship for 1 or 2 weeks would be a good solution.

Ted

 

[Rufus]

The original question went to the discussion about shutting down food production (meat packing), and whether there comes a time when it is vital to operate such facilities, no matter the cost. We're not anywhere near there yet with food supplies, but it could happen. If it does priorities and views will change.

We're obviously at that point with strategic defense assets. They must (and will) be kept operational, even if at considerable risk to the operators (who are essentially conscripted). The same contingencies likely exist for food production and essential industrial capability. You're not going to read about it as I'm sure it's classified....as it should be.

When the Captain of a vital element of national (and world) security (even unknowingly) advertises to the world that our strategic defense capabilities are degraded....national security is at risk. The issue is not so much what he did, but how he did it. He should have known better. Politics have nothing to do with it

 

[Derik]

So you live somewhere, where there are few restrictions yet you want to complain about people like me who are critical of the broad brush restrictions we have here in the United States more specifically California.

I don't think a debate will get us anywhere here or anywhere. I can't even get a diver in to change my zincs! The fact that you quote Canadian officials is a great indicator of what type of bubble you live in.

Have fun on the water and yes I am totally envious!

For the rest of you San Diego is laying off 150 health workers this week some of them nurses. I just spoke to one of my friends in Texas who's wife is a Respiratory Therapist. She currently is not busy at all much of her staff have nothing to do because they had everyone who had something other than Covid 19 cancel all appointments expecting the big wave of patients that they were told would be coming in for the Covid 19.

 

[angus99]

The original question went to the discussion about shutting down food production (meat packing), and whether there comes a time when it is vital to operate such facilities, no matter the cost. We're not anywhere near there yet with food supplies, but it could happen. If it does priorities and views will change.

We're obviously at that point with strategic defense assets. They must (and will) be kept operational, even if at considerable risk to the operators (who are essentially conscripted). The same contingencies likely exist for food production and essential industrial capability. You're not going to read about it as I'm sure it's classified....as it should be.

When the Captain of a vital element of national (and world) security (even unknowingly) advertises to the world that our strategic defense capabilities are degraded....national security is at risk. The issue is not so much what he did, but how he did it. He should have known better. Politics have nothing to do with it

By all accounts, politics had nothing to do with Crozier’s decision to widen his plea to temporarily off-load and test the crew while disinfecting the ship. Crozier understood the moment he sent the communique that he’d likely lose his command. Was it a wise call to go outside the chain of command? Maybe not—we weren’t there—but neither was Modly and the decision should have been made after an inquiry. But that was short-circuited by an over-zealous political appointee who—again by all accounts—could read the political tea-leaves and had the fate of his fired predecessor on his mind.

Politics had everything to do with Crozier’s dismissal. He realized how Crozier’s public plea would contradict the happy horse **** coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, sought and then disregarded advice within the naval command to investigate Crozier’s decision and abruptly relieved him of command. Then he compounded his error by taking a 1/4-million-dollar flight to the TR and—in the most ironic moment of the entire debacle—told the crew over the PA system that their captain was “too naive or stupid” to remain command. So was Modly naive or stupid in assuming his words wouldn’t reach the public in the era of cellphones?

As for advertising our degraded strategic capabilities, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that the true condition of that crew would have remained secret as the virus rampaged through the ship. And how capable a strategic asset is an aircraft carrier with a pandemic raging through the crew?

There is reportedly consideration being given within the military to reinstate Crozier. I hope it will receive more due process and sober consideration than his dismissal did.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/us/politics/coronavirus-roosevelt-carrier-crozier.html

 

[Rufus]

Was it a wise call to go outside the chain of command? Maybe not—

No, absolutely not. Which is the whole point. He turned the issue into a press fiasco. Naïve and stupid was the correct characterization. If anyone gets reinstated it should be Modley. What happened after Crozier was dismissed had nothing to do with the initial decision, which was the correct one and one that will stand. Attempting to obfuscate the reason for his dismissal by blaming it on the press circus created after the fact is just anti-Trump political rhetoric. By the way, the shoulder to shoulder mob scene on the hangar deck as Crozier departed the ship didn't look like social distancing to me...it looked like a complete break down in discipline. The XO should also be fired.

As an aside, I hope the Navy is looking at moving the USS Mercy from Los Angeles where it's underutilized to the Western Pacific.

 

[Bacchus]

... I just spoke to one of my friends in Texas who's wife is a Respiratory Therapist. She currently is not busy at all much of her staff have nothing to do because they had everyone who had something other than Covid 19 cancel all appointments expecting the big wave of patients that they were told would be coming in for the Covid 19.

Has she even considered volunteering to assist those that are swamped, crying for help and burned out?
How would she feel if

 

[MurrayM]

Hi Derek,

I agree that a debate will get us nowhere...you keep avoiding my questions and accusing me of things I never did.

 

[BruceK]

....For the rest of you San Diego is laying off 150 health workers this week some of them nurses. I just spoke to one of my friends in Texas who's wife is a Respiratory Therapist. She currently is not busy at all much of her staff have nothing to do because they had everyone who had something other than Covid 19 cancel all appointments expecting the big wave of patients that they were told would be coming in for the Covid 19.

That has to be wonderful welcome news! Prepare for the worst,work for the best outcome. Hard yards at controlling the infections increase must have worked, and people should celebrate, as I`m sure you do.
There was great concern here that people would not hold firm on lockdown over Easter, but they did, and the infection rate continues to fall. I allow the reservation there was less testing over Easter, but it seems the drop is real. There are hotspots still, but they will get the attention they need. There are reasons to keep on track with a strategy bearing fruit.

 

[sbu22]

I would like to see more data transparency and analysis especially related to nursing homes, assisted living facilities and other health care facilities.
At least around us county health depts have held the above data as private and left it up to those homes to release data... not happening!
I have seen reports that 2/3 of CV deaths have been nursing home residents. Many of these facilities lacked priority for testing and PPE and IMO likely were not being well managed relative to the seriousness of the situation.

Interesting. The local (Louisiana) nursing home operators own the State goernment - all branches. The Louisiana DHH (health department) stopped reporting individual nursing home Wuhan virus stats. When asked, they ststed that CDC told them to cease. Followup with CDC found they did not in any way even discuss the issue. Then DHH said "Well, you're right - but we're still not going to report it.

Bought off by the nursing home operators. The guys who run the old people warehouses won't tolerate adverse publicity. They're as sensitive as the Chinese government.

 

[sbu22]

Bruce, he's no different than any other president in USA history when it comes to making decisions. They use input from different sources, formulate a plan, and then deliver it in their own style. He wants to own the success. Previous administrations were more concerned about plausible deniability (blaming somebody else) if it failed. He's not making this decision on a whim. He is correct that it's the most important decision of his political career.

Ted

The tiny fraction of people that have or had operational authority and responsibility (be it aircraft commander, refinery manager, infantry squad leader, governor,
etc.) realize that, in a crisis, critical decisions must be made with often incorrect and/or inaccurate information. The Monday morning quarterbacks can always do it better.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 22. "The Monday morning quarterbacks can always do it better." AND hindsight is 20/20...

 

[Derik]

I wonder how many of the advocates of "house arrest or else you're killing my grandmother" are sweating the next rent payment or buying groceries tomorrow.

Exactly, someone who doesn't work, is retired or works in an industry where they can work from home will have a totally different take on our shut down here in the United States than say someone with kids, owns a small business, or someone who lives pay check to pay check.

Just as well I don't expect someone from another Country or a state without House Arrest rules to understand the mandates we have been placed under. Is Kayaking alone in the ocean really putting lives at danger or are you Big Gov. just flexing your muscle? There have been too many arrests by police her for just that.

Anyone can cherry pick all the data you want to prove whatever point you want to make or push whatever agenda you may have. The Media either Left or Right has done this so much in the past week, it's hard to weed through the BS.

Reality is as a percentage few Americans outside of NYC have died from Covid 19. Almost no healthy young Americans have died from Covid 19 period! Yet the entire country minus a few states has been on House Arrest.

My 24 year old daughter is at ground zero, she works in NYC lives in Queens and rides the train daily. Of course I was and am concerned for her. She has so many stories of people she knows who have had Covid 19. Reality is she's young and healthy and probably had it already and is immune. Most of her office/building was sick in January and February. Two of her co workers were tested and were positive in early March yet nobody else got it. Nobody died, nobody was hospitalized, Where are those stories? Where are those numbers?

I get the part about flattening the curve and not overwhelming our health care system. Reality is that our health care system hasn't been overwhelmed with the exception a few cases . The Massive doom and gloom projections with stay at home orders didn't happen yet they haven't stopped. I heard the Mayor of D.C. talking about a surge happening there this summer? Everyone seems to have a model they like to push.

Originally I believe this was a health crisis but now it's turned into a kill the economy priority by the media and some politicians.

I heard from a local Congressman Eric Swawell making a good recommendation over the weekend. Why not open the counties in California up slowly starting off with those with few cases and limit travel between counties for work only.

He is looking at the big picture because he has Presidential aspirations. Looking at the big picture is essential in any crisis yet many have been blinded by their own personal agenda, situation or drinking the punch served to you by the Media.

 

[BruceK]

It`s not a good to place ideology in the way of proper medical and health safety precautions. Unfortunately in the minds of some it should. They will argue black is white and vv(not intended to offend or encourage racial supremacists). And claim it`s done and said on rational grounds, when it`s really just politics, politics, politics.

 

[angus99]

There hasn’t been enough controversy lately.

Was it a wise call to go outside the chain of command? Maybe not—

No, absolutely not. Which is the whole point. He turned the issue into a press fiasco. Naïve and stupid was the correct characterization. If anyone gets reinstated it should be Modley. What happened after Crozier was dismissed had nothing to do with the initial decision, which was the correct one and one that will stand. Attempting to obfuscate the reason for his dismissal by blaming it on the press circus created after the fact is just anti-Trump political rhetoric. By the way, the shoulder to shoulder mob scene on the hangar deck as Crozier departed the ship didn't look like social distancing to me...it looked like a complete break down in discipline. The XO should also be fired.

As an aside, I hope the Navy is looking at moving the USS Mercy from Los Angeles where it's underutilized to the Western Pacific.

Looks like Crozier’s reinstatement, after a review “largely cleared” him, might happen. Still to be heard from: the Commander in Chief.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/...tion=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article