Isn't boating an essential activity?

[Bacchus]

Going back to the OP, I'm wondering if the states with the most restrictive virus boating laws also have the most densely overpopulated cities? As an example, are Michigan's laws based on the population of Detroit where the population density makes "everyone going for a walk " a violation of social distancing.

After this is over, wonder if pandemic scientists will examine population densities (number of people residing in each square mile of a city) and conclude that reasonable separation is unattainable and density needs to be reduced, probably not.

Ted

Density may be a factor but it seems it can be managed. From what (little) I've read it seems Singapore is an example that warrants study.
Didn't look to compare density to other US cities / states but they have a relatively high density yet has been perhaps one of the best examples of how to manage through a pandemic.
I would we need to learn how to manage it intelligently and how may be different in different density areas. I dont think we will wipe out large cities in the US as a way to be successful In the future!

 

[Njlarry]

The difference I see with AIDS is that you have to exchange a decent amount of bodily fluids with someone to catch it. With CoVid-19 all you have to do is breathe (ironic considering that ultimately compromises lungs). We basically all exchange breath with each other all the time.


You would really rather individual doctors just experiment on you or your loved ones based on their hunches or individual ideas? Or maybe based on samples that a company gives out to encourage doctors (Grunenthal/Thalidomide). You are braver than I am.

Hardly experimental. Plaquinil and zithromax are both old tried and true meds, well understood and well documented to successfully treat covid 19. I use meds off label to treat patients almost as frequently as on label. Nothing experimental in that. Certainly in life threatening situations patients have the right to try and physicians have the obligation to offer options. Where are the double blind studies to show national shut down will make a significant difference? There are none, just faulty computer models that are threatening the health and welfare of our country. Not evidence based at all. The government buerocrats are ignoring the differences among states with and without shut down. The curves seem to have leveled before shut down would have time to affect them. Of course they still get to keep their jobs and pensions even when destroying all around them.

Sweden makes a case for reasonable social distancing, isolation of those at risk, keeping calm and carryiny on sanely. As hospitals are not being over whelmed the rational for shut down must apply to influenza, h1n1 etc.

 

[Bacchus]

I would like to see more data transparency and analysis especially related to nursing homes, assisted living facilities and other health care facilities.
At least around us county health depts have held the above data as private and left it up to those homes to release data... not happening!
I have seen reports that 2/3 of CV deaths have been nursing home residents. Many of these facilities lacked priority for testing and PPE and IMO likely were not being well managed relative to the seriousness of the situation.

 

[Njlarry]

Worst than that. They admit anyone dieing with covid but not because of covid is counted as covid. A cerebral hemorrhage or cardiac arrest is counted as covid. Even the lower than expected numbers are inflated.
Can't wait to read the history books on this.

 

[MurrayM]

Big cities attract attention, but things are happening in less populated areas as well..

A snippet from Northern Spy's Atlantic article:

The data reveal some surprising patterns in infection rates at the county level after adjusting for population size. For example, many county clusters—such as those around Albany, Ga., Detroit, Nashville, Tenn., and parts of Mississippi and Arkansas—had relatively large numbers of cases per capita. As of March 29, the county cluster encompassing New York State, New Jersey and Massachusetts still had the most confirmed infections both overall and per capita: 76,273 cases, or about 22 per 10,000 people. Yet Albany, Ga., had the second-highest number per capita: 13 cases per 10,000 people.

A shout-out to Atlantic magazine, which is freely publishing all its articles on Covid-19

 

[Northern Spy]

I would like to see more data transparency and analysis especially related to nursing homes, assisted living facilities and other health care facilities.
At least around us county health depts have held the above data as private and left it up to those homes to release data... not happening!
I have seen reports that 2/3 of CV deaths have been nursing home residents. Many of these facilities lacked priority for testing and PPE and IMO likely were not being well managed relative to the seriousness of the situation.

100 percent with you.

It would seem as if many governments are withholding data for age, comorbidities, and itinerancy.

But, I think if they did release that data, they would have a heck of a time having young, healthy people practice social distancing and self isolation.

Now I am the type of person who believes that Ghandi was spot on with "The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats it's most vulnerable members."

But I also readily admit that it is fantastically difficult in practice for most of us, myself included.

 

[MurrayM]

...Sweden makes a case for reasonable social distancing, isolation of those at risk, keeping calm and carryiny on sanely...

The difference being, they have had consistent messaging, top down, from the start. The populace also has trust in their government and tend to follow directions. Not so much so in your country.

 

[Frosty]

Njlarry:

You quoted me with a paragraph that started with "The same experts said you would die by wiping your eye as like covid and most all other virus the aids virus was isolated in tears."

I never said anything that is in that paragraph, and in fact do not agree with it. Can you please edit your post to remove that paragraph from "my" quote? Thank you.

 

[Njlarry]

I never said you said that. I was there when the cdc said that. These govt sources have yet to determine the exact parameters of covid 19 transmission. People can chose to believe models or not, I have no problem with it but wonder how so many can unquestionably cling to models that have been wrong from the start.
I am very concerned with health care of current chronic progressive diseases being suspended. In my area all biopsies, mammograms etc are on hold till when? At what cost? Where is the little box on tv with current cancer deaths?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Re: post #89. How selfish is it to think anyone can wander about with impunity while possibly being a carrier of COVID-19? I suppose IF you consider sharing the virus is a magnanimous gesture then my previous statement is null. Shut downs, limiting exposures and containments work.


Being the world leader of confirmed COVID cases, for almost three (3) weeks now, is NOT an accomplishment IMO.


There are and there will be heros. Deniers won't be among their ranks.

 

[BruceK]

Once again politics gets in the way of dealing with Covid 19. And the discussion regarding it. USA seems as riven by political difference as by Covid 19.

 

[O C Diver]

Once again politics gets in the way of dealing with Covid 19. And the discussion regarding it. USA seems as riven by political difference as by Covid 19.

Absolutely agree! Let the president make the decision and lead the country. If he's wrong, he will be judged at the ballot box in November.

Ted

 

[BruceK]

Absolutely agree! Let the president make the decision and lead the country. If he's wrong, he will be judged at the ballot box in November.

Ted

I just saw him on TV, announcing, while pointing at his head,that a large part of his decisions are based on instinct, saying "that`s all I have".
There are a number of TF members in whom I have some interest. I fear for their welfare.

 

[Frosty]

I never said you said that.

You did include it in a passage you quoted me as saying.See this:

1) My original post, #79
2) Your "quote" of me in post #92 with the part I never said outlined in red.

I ask only that you please edit your post #92 to remove the section in your "quote" of my post which is not something I ever said or agree with.

Thank you.

 

[O C Diver]

I just saw him on TV, announcing, while pointing at his head,that a large part of his decisions are based on instinct, saying "that`s all I have".
There are a number of TF members in whom I have some interest. I fear for their welfare.

Bruce, he's no different than any other president in USA history when it comes to making decisions. They use input from different sources, formulate a plan, and then deliver it in their own style. He wants to own the success. Previous administrations were more concerned about plausible deniability (blaming somebody else) if it failed. He's not making this decision on a whim. He is correct that it's the most important decision of his political career.

Ted

 

[BruceK]

We were at our boat yesterday. Even the 50km drive to it seemed questionable but there was no Police stop and check. At the marina there is a sign restricting us to 15 minutes checking our boats, but I`m told this is more about a noisy family deciding to "isolate" onboard. Though they were not actually present, having left for a big family get together to celebrate Easter.

Their boat is next to our only liveaboards, one of whom is in chemo treatment for breast cancer, so I hope they come back well, and maybe don`t stay.
Another marina boat was moored at "The Basin" for lunch and told by Police to go home. I`m hoping if Australia can get to ease some restrictions that sensibly using our boat while maintaining distance is included.

 

[jhance]

You can make the argument that anything we do right now is selfish. When we order from Amazon we are putting the delivery drivers at risk and spreading the virus around. Using our computers right now puts the ISP service techs at risk as we overload the internet. Am I being selfish right now to be using the internet? The question is how far do we take these "lockdowns?" Science and common sense should lead us to an adequate solution, but we don't need to take it so far as to do so much damage to EVERYTHING that this all self implodes. Everyone just needs to relax and use that common sense.

I can’t believe how stupid and unfair it is that (insert favorite pastime) is not essential!


I have been reading variations on this theme all over the Internet and they all sound the same: selfish and self-centered.

 

[jhance]

Does your common sense tell you that driving to your boat to check on it is OK so long as you maintain strict social distancing at all times?

We were at our boat yesterday. Even the 50km drive to it seemed questionable but there was no Police stop and check. At the marina there is a sign restricting us to 15 minutes checking our boats, but I`m told this is more about a noisy family deciding to "isolate" onboard. Though they were not actually present, having left for a big family get together to celebrate Easter.

Their boat is next to our only liveaboards, one of whom is in chemo treatment for breast cancer, so I hope they come back well, and maybe don`t stay.
Another marina boat was moored at "The Basin" for lunch and told by Police to go home. I`m hoping if Australia can get to ease some restrictions that sensibly using our boat while maintaining distance is included.

 

[BruceK]

Does your common sense tell you that driving to your boat to check on it is OK so long as you maintain strict social distancing at all times?

We thought about it, felt it was ok, but a tad guilty because of the request not to leave home. Normally on a check visit we stop for lunch at a cafe called "Pie in the Sky"(any followers of older English TV series?), but took lunch with us, and took care with the few people at the marina.

 

[jhance]

Sounds like your common sense is sufficient to do your thing while keeping everyone safe, and I would say you are fine doing your thing and you shouldn't feel guilty. You are checking on your personal property, and you are allowed to "go for a drive." Are you supposed to abandon your personal property? It's an example of why we don't need to absolutely shut every one and every thing down. If we can't drive to our boat to check on it, safely, then we shouldn't be doing SO many more things that are currently allowed. Locking everyone in their closets isn't the only way to flatten the curve. The reality is that driving to your boat while practicing social distancing isn't harming anything.

We thought about it, felt it was ok, but a tad guilty because of the request not to leave home. Normally on a check visit we stop for lunch at a cafe called "Pie in the Sky"(any followers of older English TV series?), but took lunch with us, and took care with the few people at the marina.

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[angus99]

:lol: At least it looks like he put the plug in.

(And thanks for the viewable-on-a-Mac attachment!)

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[Derik]

So anyone who is working and has not been tested is "Selfish" ? But those preaching from their couch and relying on data that is miserably flawed are right because they think they are compliant?

Go to Target, Costco, Safeway, Albertsons, do you really believe these people are buying "essentials" or just using this designation to get their normal goods? Such Hypocrisy. Nobody here is really following stay at home orders as they were meant to be yet politicians have directed the police to ticket those alone in the ocean on a kayak yet let people flock to stores to buy strawberry's and ice cream? People I know go to the store at least 3 times a week here.

So it seems in your eyes it's only the people who work, want to work or think that the shut down was done totally wrong and with too big of a brush are spreading the virus?

If you monitored what people bought and limited them to only "essentials" limited them to how many trips they could make maybe then you would think this is an overstep of government? Or how about this not let people go to the store simply hand out food.. Then would it be too big of a step?

Why not let the low risk people go back to work keeping washing and distance rules in place even masks and gloves in certain cases. Then really clamped down on the high risk people that means you if your over 60, or have any pre existing health issues and so on.

We make laws based on Age as it is, we also make laws based on Region and populations why do this any different?

What if by region we made Non Group Outdoor activities ok, then put high risk people on total lock down. Then had Everyone else use safety measures. The majority of our population would be working, and the health of our population would be in much better shape both for Covid 19 and other issues.

 

[MurrayM]

Good morning Derik,

Think you missed this answer to a question of yours in post #90:

Okay:

I don't see how you find these numbers support your argument, especially when you account for the mortality rate which is 0.1% for influenza and estimated to be ten times worse for Covid-19 at 1.0%

Those numbers tell me there are three times as many people being hospitalized in the older age bracket, and ten times as many will die as compared to the flu.

On a more recent note, meat processing plants are being hit pretty hard these days. What's your plan? Keep sending fresh people in there as workers get sick and/or die? Over 10% of the workers are sick with Covid-19 in the story linked below, so far...what percentage do you think it can get up to? Don't you think these plants are an indication of what could happen in cities if there were no physical distancing?

Cargill Meat Solutions, a 900-worker plant in Hazleton that packages meat in plastic for supermarket shelves in Pennsylvania and surrounding states, shut down temporarily on Tuesday as 130 hourly workers have tested positive for COVID-19 and a rash of employees called out sick, a union leader said.

https://www.pennlive.com/coronaviru...getting-covid-19-is-the-food-supply-safe.html

 

[Bacchus]

One of our local police depts had a kids Easter give away. It was a drive through with a live (person) Easter bunny to entertain the kids.
Only BIG problem I had with it...
TV cameras were there to spread the PR and...
NONE of the officers handing out baskets were masks, only some (half of those present& participating) were gloves.
At best NOT a good example set for the public IMO and dangerous at worst as I can only imagine what precautions were taken by those purchasing and assembling the baskets for hand outside if they were not in compliance when on camera!
Bad choices by those that should know better and be setting positive examples instead of seeking PR!

 

[MurrayM]

Another meat processing plant shuts down:

At the time, 238 of the state's 626 confirmed coronavirus cases had been diagnosed among its employees, comprising more than half of all cases reported in South Dakota's most-impacted county. According to South Dakota's Department of Health, an additional 104 people have been confirmed positive as of Sunday, and multiple news organizations have reported that 55 of them are Smithfield staff members.

https://www.newsweek.com/meatpackin...er-almost-300-employees-test-positive-1497498

All these workers have families, who have friends, who have more friends, who go shopping, who go to church, etc...

 

[MurrayM]

Even Fox News has noticed:

https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/meat-industry-warns-shortages-plants-close-coronavirus

 

[kthoennes]

I wonder how many of the advocates of "house arrest or else you're killing my grandmother" are sweating the next rent payment or buying groceries tomorrow.

 

[Derik]

"even fox news" Don't think for a second that every media outlet isn't going to try to take advantage of this crisis.

The CDC data shows how disproportional the death numbers are as far as old people being the majority of cases where someone died same as with the flu virus.

Stop pretending that everyone here who gets the virus dies that's total BS. Remember we have a large population that could be positive with zero symptoms.

A meat packing place has problems in SD so address that facility and find out what's going on then make the decisions based on your scientific findings not shut down every meat packer in the United States.

Anyway MurrayM if you want to further debate me send me a PM and later this evening I would enjoy that.

Be safe and have a great day off the water!