Isn't boating an essential activity?

[Njlarry]

As cogs in a wheel all jobs are essential as we all depend on each other. The only non essential activity I can think of is opera and they gave that 25 million. Too bad they didn't buy more test kits with that money that we will pay back with interest.
When the dust settles we may find this panic was unnecessary. No shut down for aids, West Nile, Ebola, h1n1, influenza. Hospitals across the country are mostly empty while biopsies, cardiac, Neuro and other life extending procedures are cancelled. How many women will not get prompt treatment wilh cancelled mammograms?
Sweden has at risk people stay at how while the rest of the country carries on with proper hygiene.
It is amazing how quickly we have surrendered our rights over a panic of computer models that have already been shown to be wrong. Btw, the same government experts said we were all gonna die from prior pandemics. I remember well the aids panic with constant "We have no cure!" We appear to have treatments for covid 19 but the same experts want double blind studies rather than permit doctors and patients to make their own decisions.
The post mortem of this panic will for an interesting book.
My two cents. Over and out.

 

[Derik]

Studies and Data

When a Mechanic does work on your boat and makes things worse do you use them again and again? Then call them for recommendations?

Most of the predictions are coming out of the University of Washington and every one of them have not only been inaccurate but off by several hundred percent.

As far as "medical experts" In the United States we have 2 doctors per 1,000 people, so it's pretty easy to find one who will agree with your ideas what ever those maybe. If you ever listened to the Dr. picked by our governor during the press conferences the first thing he talks about after he downplays testing is equality in testing and testing minorities and the LBGT community first since they are hit the hardest? He said we have to look at everyone through a different lens? QUACK QUACK

Wonder why we are so reluctant to test? first it was because of the time but now it's something else...

Then we have reporters making up and their own information based on things they have cherry picked from sources that support their agenda or simply spout off things that make no sense. Then you hear the general public saying the same bs.

NJlarry yes! I am surprised as well how quickly we have given up our liberties and surrendered our lives. I feel like if we were in a situation for a Boston Tea Party maybe 10 people would show up!

There are so many Environmental Control Groups to study here, I am guessing when the dust settles our tactics will look very foolish if those studies are ever released.

 

[angus99]

When a Mechanic does work on your boat and makes things worse do you use them again and again? Then call them for recommendations?

I try to find a mechanic with direct experience in the problem I’m having. How many doctors/epidemiologists do you think had prior experience with Covid-19?

As far as "medical experts" In the United States we have 2 doctors per 1,000 people, so it's pretty easy to find one who will agree with your ideas what ever those maybe. If you ever listened to the Dr. picked by our governor during the press conferences the first thing he talks about after he downplays testing is equality in testing and testing minorities and the LBGT community first since they are hit the hardest? He said we have to look at everyone through a different lens? QUACK QUACK

It is repulsive to hear anyone criticize the medical profession just now. They are risking their lives and following the science, not trying to turn this tragedy into a bitch-fest over grievances about minorities or sexual orientation.

Wonder why we are so reluctant to test? first it was because of the time but now it's something else...

NOW you’re on to something! I heard the Instacart Consortium is behind the slow testing because, thanks to Covid, their revenues have never been higher. They’re being aided, of course, by the Trilateral Commission . . . all of which is well-documented in Hillary’s e-mails.

Then we have reporters making up and their own information based on things they have cherry picked from sources that support their agenda or simply spout off things that make no sense. Then you hear the general public saying the same bs.

Or maybe they’re reporting from sources you relexively disagree with.

NJlarry yes! I am surprised as well how quickly we have given up our liberties and surrendered our lives. I feel like if we were in a situation for a Boston Tea Party maybe 10 people would show up!

Possibly an indication of how unsupportable most of your arguments are?

 

[kthoennes]

One of the big problems with this panic is that all the media distortion makes it very hard to know what's really going on. That drone shot of the indigent burials in New York City is a perfect example. The headline says "Mass Burials Surge" but that's really a distortion. Before this NYC routinely buried about 25 unclaimed bodies one day per week on that island, after 30 or more days in city morgues. Now they want to clear morgue space - which they may or may not need - so they're burying 25 per day lately after 14 days - to clear space. Is it a "surge" in burials? Yeah, sort of, but...

(In my mind that drone shot should have never been allowed, any more than you'd want a drone shot taken of your own loved one's burial. Media ghouls.)

 

[Tangler]

They shut the parks down here and I guess I can see why...the parking lots were full due to good weather last week and people were ignoring the directives. I miss my grandkids the most. But I am going to the boat as I can do that without seeing anyone at my marina as it happens so I’m getting lots of work done...time to do the handrails!

 

[Rejuvination]

my 2 cents..
My wife is a public health nurse, and I'm grounded. She says It will take the loss of a very close friend or family member for an average "Lug" like me to understand." Says she has a dead co-worker and the only proof social distance works is when nothing goes wrong. 'followed by some of that "Big Dummy" stuff and a couple of I luv yous'

I worry to no end when she leaves for work
people get diagnosed, isolated, die and you never see them again.

Our boats will still be there when this blows over, all we have to do is hunker down. And we can live to see 'um.

I just love to read the forum, thank you guys

Respectfully
Ed

 

[MurrayM]

Compare Covid-19 growth curves from before physical/social distancing and after.

After about 10,000 cases the numbers start to double quickly. It got to doubling every 2.5 days in the USA.

10,000
20,000
40,000
80,000
160,000
320,000

You get the picture...swamped ICU beds in hospitals because once in ICU, and maybe on a ventilator, you are there for a couple weeks. The system (and healthcare workers) cannot keep up because patients come in faster than they leave.

With physical/social distancing the doubling rate slows to every 7 to 8 days. This gives ICU departments and healthcare workers a fighting chance to keep up.

That's what physical/social distancing is all about.

 

[MurrayM]

my 2 cents..
My wife is a public health nurse, and I'm grounded. She says It will take the loss of a very close friend or family member for an average "Lug" like me to understand." Says she has a dead co-worker and the only proof social distance works is when nothing goes wrong. 'followed by some of that "Big Dummy" stuff and a couple of I luv yous'

I worry to no end when she leaves for work
people get diagnosed, isolated, die and you never see the again.

Our boats will still be there when this blows over, all we have to do is hunker down. And we can live to see 'um.

I just love to read the forum, thank you guys

Respectfully
Ed

Thanks for that bit of reality. Welcome aboard

 

[Derik]

Common sense and Science

Corna Virus has been around for a long time. Covid 19 is somewhat new.

Look at Hospitalizations for Covid 19 across the country do you think they are all the same per capita?

Tune into Governor Newsom's press conferences and then get back to me if you think this isn't political.

My girlfriends sister works at a hospital hers is empty nothing new here. I think our high was 250 some hospitalized in a region of 3 million people. I talked to a local sheriff here last week same nothing new.

Sure some of it is because of social distancing but NYC did the same thing didn't work out so well for them. We could have quarantined the elderly and those with pre existing conditions and had lower numbers! Check out Sweden!

Did you check the flu cases hospitalized and deaths this year? How about suicides? How about homelessness in 6 months?

Easy to preach to others while your either working or retired get a clue and try to relate to the other 90% of the Country.

Ever take a college stats class?

Sorry preaching to the politicians not the board.

Like a said a modern day tea party would be about 10 people while the sheep stay home and pat themselves on the back for being compliant.

 

[MurrayM]

Again...look at the growth curves.

Whole lotta nuthin for a long time, then the numbers start slowly ticking upwards; then they double every week, every 6 days, every 5 days, every 4 days, every 3 days, every 2.5 days...unless people start to physically/socially distance themselves.

Sounds like you're in an area early on the curve.

 

[MurrayM]

Looks like healthcare workers in your area are concerned enough to be cautious:

https://lamesahealthcare.com/coronavirus-covid-19-faq/

 

[MurrayM]

...Check out Sweden!...

Okay:

There’s a growing media chorus pointing out that Sweden’s relatively relaxed approach to public restrictions amid the coronavirus outbreak is beginning to look like a mistake. One main factor is that Sweden’s death rate is continuing to climb more quickly than that of its Nordic neighbors.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gabrie...us-strategy-is-it-a-big-mistake/#73ddb1d6228a

Curves are starting to get that characteristic hockey stick look:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Sweden is testing even less than the USA per capita and 1/2 that of Canada, so you can bet there are more than the confirmed numbers out there.

 

[MurrayM]

More on Sweden, from the government:

Published 06 April 2020
The COVID-19 pandemic is testing our society. In recent weeks, the Swedish Government has presented a range of different measures to safeguard people’s lives, health and jobs.

“This crisis will continue for a long time. It will be tough. But our society is strong. If everyone takes their responsibility, together we will overcome it,” says Prime Minister Stefan Löfven.

On 1 February, the Government classified COVID-19 as a disease that constitutes a danger to society, opening the possibility of extraordinary communicable disease control measures.

The overall objective of the Government’s efforts is to reduce the pace of the COVID-19 virus’s spread: to ‘flatten the curve’ so that large numbers of people do not become ill at the same time.*

It is important to implement the right measure at the right time, to achieve the best possible impact. The Government will take every decision necessary to safeguard people’s lives, health and jobs.

The measures taken by the Government and government agencies to reduce the pace of the virus’s spread need to be weighed against their effects on society and public health in general. The measures taken are reviewed constantly as the situation develops.

An important starting point is careful consideration of the expert knowledge contributed by government agencies. These expert agencies can make recommendations to the Government on the measures they consider should be taken, but they can also take decisions of their own.

“Our government agencies and our health care system are doing everything they can. But every person in Sweden needs to take individual responsibility. If everyone takes responsibility, we can keep the spread of the virus in check. Follow the authorities’ advice: if you have even the slightest symptoms, do not go to work and refrain from meeting other people,” says Mr Löfven.

People in Sweden have a high level of trust in government agencies. This means that a large proportion of people follow government agencies’ advice. In the current situation, people in Sweden are on the whole acting responsibly to reduce the spread of infection by, for example, restricting their social contacts.

https://www.government.se/articles/2020/04/strategy-in-response-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/

So that's the difference between Sweden and the USA which allows Sweden to have a more relaxed approach.

 

[MurrayM]

More from Swedish government on preparations for tighter social restrictions:

On 7 April, the Government decided on a bill proposing that new powers be introduced into the Communicable Diseases Act. The legislative proposal would enable the Government to act quickly and take decisions on temporary measures to limit the spread of COVID-19.

Measures that may be considered include temporarily limiting gatherings, temporarily closing shopping centres and other trading centres, temporarily suspending transport and temporarily enabling the redistribution of medicines and medical equipment.*

This is a temporary amendment that will be apply for three months, from 18*April until 30*June 2020.

General guidelines: Keep your distance and take personal responsibility

The Public Health Agency has produced new regulations and general guidelines to reduce the spread of COVID-19 in Sweden. Private individuals must take the situation seriously and follow the guidelines and recommendations. This includes maintaining social distancing by keeping a distance from each other and refraining from non-essential travel within the country.

https://www.government.se/articles/...imit-the-spread-of-the-covid-19-virusny-sida/

Gotta love the Internet

 

[Northern Spy]

Actually, there is another difference. The government can't instantly turn tyrannic:

https://www.thelocal.se/20200409/an...atter-of-policy-history-tradition-and-culture

They have some excellent data crunchers you might like:

https://www.svt.se/datajournalistik/the-spread-of-the-coronavirus/#metod

So their death numbers may be high, but they are extremely accurate, as everyone is in the social health care.

That and they haven't decimated their economy.

So, yeah, we wait and see.

Not saying it is wrong or right, but if the people who live there like the policy, then who really cares what US journalists say?

 

[MurrayM]

Thanks for the link regarding how their government is set up. Interesting stuff.

At the outset we need to acknowledge that a country's constitution and laws are intertwined with issues such as culture, tradition and history. While many continental European countries have a history of war, revolutions and confrontational politics this is not the case of Sweden. The last time Sweden was involved in a war was 1814 and we did not have a revolution to introduce democracy or the current society.

Instead it was introduced by gradual economical, social and political reforms, including extending voting rights in stages leading to universal suffrage.

 

[ancora]

Corna Virus has been around for a long time. Covid 19 is somewhat new.

Look at Hospitalizations for Covid 19 across the country do you think they are all the same per capita?

Tune into Governor Newsom's press conferences and then get back to me if you think this isn't political.

My girlfriends sister works at a hospital hers is empty nothing new here. I think our high was 250 some hospitalized in a region of 3 million people. I talked to a local sheriff here last week same nothing new.

Sure some of it is because of social distancing but NYC did the same thing didn't work out so well for them. We could have quarantined the elderly and those with pre existing conditions and had lower numbers! Check out Sweden!

Did you check the flu cases hospitalized and deaths this year? How about suicides? How about homelessness in 6 months?

Easy to preach to others while your either working or retired get a clue and try to relate to the other 90% of the Country.

Ever take a college stats class?

Sorry preaching to the politicians not the board.

Like a said a modern day tea party would be about 10 people while the sheep stay home and pat themselves on the back for being compliant.

California has shut down a state of 43 million people because 530 of them have died from the Corona virus. On any given day, over 750 Californians die of various causes. Overkill?

 

[Northern Spy]

Thanks for the link regarding how their government is set up. Interesting stuff.

I found it interesting that their government has exactly the same recommendations as our government for precautions.

So the difference between us and them is in the how the people view their government and how the government view the people. It seems as if they respect each other. How refreshing.

 

[Frosty]

It is amazing how quickly we have surrendered our rights over a panic of computer models that have already been shown to be wrong. Btw, the same government experts said we were all gonna die from prior pandemics. I remember well the aids panic with constant "We have no cure!"

The difference I see with AIDS is that you have to exchange a decent amount of bodily fluids with someone to catch it. With CoVid-19 all you have to do is breathe (ironic considering that ultimately compromises lungs). We basically all exchange breath with each other all the time.

We appear to have treatments for covid 19 but the same experts want double blind studies rather than permit doctors and patients to make their own decisions.

You would really rather individual doctors just experiment on you or your loved ones based on their hunches or individual ideas? Or maybe based on samples that a company gives out to encourage doctors (Grunenthal/Thalidomide). You are braver than I am.

 

[Derik]

Let's try this made up scenario. I am 70 years old, a diabetec, over weight and had a heart attack last year. For some reason we have run out of flu vaccinations here in the U.S. and it's a really bad flu season, way over the US average of almost 40,000 deaths a year and especially bad in NYC where you live.

So as a responsible adult realizing I am at high risk, I social distance and self Isolate pretty much the entire flu season. Guess what I don't get the flu and live!

OR realizing I am in a category with maybe a few million others, I am quite happy that my government comes in with a broad brush and mandates nobody work, no gatherings, no income no hobbies just stay home because we have a small percentage of people at high risk for the flu this year? no schools no churches no shopping only essential workers and supplies for this grave emergency. Not only am I happy but call anyone who disagrees with me selfish, and pretty much accuses them of attempted murder?

So maybe look outside your current situation, and look at the big picture if you don't work for the government or are deemed essential your in trouble. College plans cancelled, little league over, maybe your senior year of high school done, the new house not going to happen, seeing your relatives in another state forget it, how about paying your rent.. probably not. And the argument that oh well the alternative was death is more than silly it's plain stupid. So many better ways to handle this if you can't think of them then your you need to take off the collar.

I am done, Happy Easter to all and let's hope everything gets better soon where ever you may live.

 

[MurrayM]

Right...40,000 deaths to flu a year...we're barely 4 months into Covid-19, starting from one person.

The Spanish Flu came back 6 times stronger in the fall, so might Covid-19 because it doesn't have to start from one person again...the whole planet has been seeded in this first wave.

 

[BruceK]

Astounded as I am at what is happening in USA I`m even more astounded someone wants Govt to do less, even do nothing. On one view what has happened is due to a lack of response. Now there is response,to argue abandoning response, seems very odd.

How on earth did the mighty USA get where it is with this? Surely a question for another day. To try resolving it now would surely hamper the response.
Australia got a better lead from New Zealand than anywhere else.

But why not try it. Cease the response. No more lockdowns. Resume full manufacturing operations. Go back to life as it was in mid January. Reopen borders. Cruise ships to sail again. Bars and clubs, gyms, restaurants, sport venues, all reopen. Let`s see how it goes. If it doesn`t go well,will the result be retrievable.

 

[O C Diver]

Going back to the OP, I'm wondering if the states with the most restrictive virus boating laws also have the most densely overpopulated cities? As an example, are Michigan's laws based on the population of Detroit where the population density makes "everyone going for a walk " a violation of social distancing.

After this is over, wonder if pandemic scientists will examine population densities (number of people residing in each square mile of a city) and conclude that reasonable separation is unattainable and density needs to be reduced, probably not.

Ted

 

[MYNantucket]

It is for me.

 

[CaptTom]

Going back to the OP, I'm wondering if the states with the most restrictive virus boating laws also have the most densely overpopulated cities?

That's undoubtedly one factor. But also the type of activity usually associated with boating. In inland state capitals, it's not unusual for the lawmakers to think of boaters as bass fishermen in small boats. They make up the overwhelming majority of boaters in most states, and are probably the ones most often encountered by lubbers. These legislators have no concept of coastal maritime commerce, commercial fishing or long-term cruising.

At any rate, "stay at home" is being misunderstood by many. It doesn't only mean stay away from others. It also means stop moving around, stop using resources, stop risking accidents which put a strain on first responders and hospitals.

Most rural areas don't have the resources to support the huge influx of people trying to escape the cities. The fact that these visitors are bringing the virus with them only adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Portage_Bay]

That's undoubtedly one factor. But also the type of activity usually associated with boating. In inland state capitals, it's not unusual for the lawmakers to think of boaters as bass fishermen in small boats. They make up the overwhelming majority of boaters in most states, and are probably the ones most often encountered by lubbers. These legislators have no concept of coastal maritime commerce, commercial fishing or long-term cruising.

At any rate, "stay at home" is being misunderstood by many. It doesn't only mean stay away from others. It also means stop moving around, stop using resources, stop risking accidents which put a strain on first responders and hospitals.

Most rural areas don't have the resources to support the huge influx of people trying to escape the cities. The fact that these visitors are bringing the virus with them only adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Woodland Hills]

I can’t believe how stupid and unfair it is that (insert favorite pastime) is not essential!


I have been reading variations on this theme all over the Internet and they all sound the same: selfish and self-centered.

 

[Northern Spy]

Going back to the OP, I'm wondering if the states with the most restrictive virus boating laws also have the most densely overpopulated cities? As an example, are Michigan's laws based on the population of Detroit where the population density makes "everyone going for a walk " a violation of social distancing.

After this is over, wonder if pandemic scientists will examine population densities (number of people residing in each square mile of a city) and conclude that reasonable separation is unattainable and density needs to be reduced, probably not.

Ted

50% of the population lives on 1% of the land.

It seems as if most modern political conflicts pit large cities against less populated areas. The election maps of the US and Canada (and many other countries) reflect that accurately.

Although COVID infection doesn't necessarily follow that in the US based on this map which takes in consideration population densities. https://geodacenter.github.io/covid/lisa.mp4

from this article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/map-reveals-hidden-u-s-hotspots-of-coronavirus-infection/

 

[Derik]

Control Group

CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/co...elt-has-550-covid-19-cases-navy-says/2304186/

This is the great Control Group for analysis. 5000 sailors living in tight living conditions all exposed to each other. No precautions taken until a week ago. What if they followed just a few cold and flu rules? Distancing, washing hands, and such. This the cruise ships, air plane travelers and on and on so many good control groups to study and provide real accurate scientific analysis. How about the Essential workers? they have been back to work for a long enough period to see how many have gotten sick.

Instead our Media and politicians use numbers of Tested Positive, Hospitalizations and Deaths. without the asterisk: Anyone tested positive who is hospitalized or dies will go under Covid 19. I could be hit by a car go into the hospital dying and then be tested positive and my numbers come out as a covid 19 case!

I argue that treating everyone as being infected as having the virus and shutting down a country is much more selfish than doing the math and analysis and making decisions based on science.

I understand this was all new but a month into it it's no longer new and making predictions that this will continue into summer means your not changing the course.

I hear people saying they enjoy the shut down? How selfish is that? It's as if nobody understands the underlying complications from the shut down because their situation is fitting for them.

Just because your demogrphic is not affected by the shut down you think it's ok?

https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2020/04/09/cdc-releases-early/

Statistically these numbers should be re enforced as all of the latest data from NYC comes in and based on the demographics of the areas hit the hardest I am guessing it will push the numbers of old white males with underlying conditions even higher.

Look at the last sentence in this article.. are these the numbers we were told about ? or anywhere close? Shall we pat ourselves on the back again and again about how good of a job we have done as families are suffering from the financial fall out.

Happy Easter while you retired, essential workers, employed by the government or lucky enough to work from home, enjoy your turkey and fixings. A lot of Americans will be opening a can of spam or boiling some ramen and be called Selfish?

 

[MurrayM]

Look at the last sentence in this article.. are these the numbers we were told about ? or anywhere close?

Okay:

The study compared data from the first four weeks of the past five seasons of influenza, and found those hospitalization rates ranged from 0.1 per 100,000 people between the ages of 5 to 17, up to between 2.2 and 5.4 for people 85 and older. For COVID-19, the hospitalization rate for patients 85 or older is 17.2 per 100,000.

I don't see how you find these numbers support your argument, especially when you account for the mortality rate which is 0.1% for influenza and estimated to be ten times worse for Covid-19 at 1.0%

Those numbers tell me there are three times as many people being hospitalized in the older age bracket, and ten times as many will die as compared to the flu.