What does radar do that my eyes can't?

[backinblue]

And I agree with you, Dave. Four years with the Coast Guard Auxiliary and 83% of our calls involved operators who had a relationship with alcohol that day.

In an area described as having "lots of logs" it's hard to believe it was a good decision to run at full speed in the dark because it lowered some other risk. But who knows, anything is possible, but if I had to bet....

 

[catalinajack]

I’m in the running with radar if the boats moving no matter the condition team. If you run with it even in good conditions you will have trust and knowledge of how valuable the tool is when conditions have deteriorated or you decide to run the boat at night when you usually do not. I actually prefer running 2 radars of different types if I have the option. The open array units have more power and detail at further ranges than the solid state units do and the solid state units work much better at closer distances. So running two completely different types of arrays gives you the best of both worlds and a clearer picture of the situation overall. I know what the specs say but not all 40+ mile radars are created equal, the ability to show a coastline is very different than showing a birds,boat or inlet at those ranges and both the newer and older open array units excel at extended ranges and a solid state unit will not do that. I work on tow boats and at night radar is our eyes, we do not really change our speed unless conditions deteriorate as the radar units are good enough to run in completely dark conditions if you become accustomed to it, rarely do I turn on the spotlights or flood lights.

Long range radar - why would I ever need to see anything more than, say, 10 miles or even five miles away to avoid a collision? What am I missing?

 

[psneeld]

If he is referring to commercial tows... unless very small tows, 5 miles would be interesting to be surprised a risk of collision exists when on open water with fast ships around.


If I am not mistaken but haven't found the reference, inspected towboats may need 2 Radars just for the purpose he describes.


Captains also like to have close in and long range simultaneously for collision avoidance and monitor the stern tow. Back around 2000, Simrad came out with a radar with a fast sweep to give the same effect with every other sweep tuned for long range and the next short range. The display could be split to show both close and distance.

 

[backinblue]

Long range radar - why would I ever need to see anything more than, say, 10 miles or even five miles away to avoid a collision? What am I missing?

I agree. For coastal cruising, I'm zoomed in to a mile or 2. Often much less than that. Even 5 or 10 miles would seem way too long for me. But it's all relative. If you are crossing oceans, or offshore a fair distance, you might want to see what is 10 or more miles away.

 

[Seevee]

Long range radar - why would I ever need to see anything more than, say, 10 miles or even five miles away to avoid a collision? What am I missing?

Good point, and usually its rarely more than a mile at trawler speeds, maybe 2 miles. Heck I have one area that has about 10 crab traps per 1/2 mile and I'll be on the 200 or 300 foot range to see them. Don't worry about other boats for the most part, as no one else travels there at night. Been doing that run on and off for 20 years and haven't hit anything ..... yet....



And I could argue that the bulk of us would do fine with one good radar to get the job done.

 

[mvweebles]

I find radar-threads interesting. An inquisitive soul posts a true question about use and utility, usually confessing their lack of experience. A dozen or so experienced operators - often with commercial backgrounds - respond. The impression is that truly experienced mariners run/use their radar on 100% of the time. But that's a tiny minority. On any given day, I'd hazard a guess that of the recreational boats equipped with radar, less than 1% are actually running their radar. Let's be honest - most recreational boaters avoid low-visibility conditions.

It takes time getting comfortable running a boat on instruments. I used to do long coastal passages and would get bored so tinkered with instruments and settings a lot. No magic, just time.

BTW - a few people have mentioned being able to see crab floats on their radar. I want whatever radar they have - recommendation please.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I find radar-threads interesting. An inquisitive soul posts a true question about use and utility, usually confessing their lack of experience. A dozen or so experienced operators - often with commercial backgrounds - respond. The impression is that truly experienced mariners run/use their radar on 100% of the time. But that's a tiny minority. On any given day, I'd hazard a guess that of the recreational boats equipped with radar, less than 1% are actually running their radar. Let's be honest - most recreational boaters avoid low-visibility conditions.

It takes time getting comfortable running a boat on instruments. I used to do long coastal passages and would get bored so tinkered with instruments and settings a lot. No magic, just time.

BTW - a few people have mentioned being able to see crab floats on their radar. I want whatever radar they have - recommendation please.

Peter

In ideal conditions, even back to the first Raymarine Pathfinder Radar circa 1999 it could be tuned to see crab floats on the ICW.


It was either the first or one of the first to use different wavelengths for different ranges. In my opinion, it was far superior to the competition for several years, but the others mostly caught up.


It would also show a single seagull flying through. Pretty darn good, but the older CRT Furuno open array 4-6kW units were mostly preferred by e and the other captains for general use on boats big enough to justify them.



Today, my 7 year old Raymarine unit can probably do the same...just don't try much, as you pointed out, I operate mostly in good vis and not bored enough to play with the radar.

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter several thoughts
Sailing vessels usually aren’t generating much electricity when underway. The biggest advantage of the newer radars is no prolonged warmup and much less draw. Some machines allow you to adjust the interval of the sweep and decrease draw even further. Or you ask crew to do a sweep every 5 or 10 minutes. Leaving it in standby when using an older machine.

Power is different. I can think of few reasons to not have the radar always on if underway. Several posters have commented about using it for weather. This is an awesome tool in my opinion. People who place their complete trust in forecasting haven’t spent enough time on the water. Getting on the correct side of a local squall or even more important as far away as possible from lightning with a Tstorm is huge. We commonly dodge rain on passage. For weather 48m is a big step up.

Even the old radars have presets. Understanding them is important. Why are you using the radar. Weather? To find bouys? To miss ships? To miss boats? Are the likely vessels wood with no reflectors? Or fully kitted out? Understanding the adjustments does make them work better. Have run bird, harbor or buoy in the open ocean at times. Great to miss the small, wooden fish boats you find a surprisingly distance offshore in places like the north side of Puerto Rico.

We like AIS and radar on one screen and chart on another. Even if that means using a split screen. Like two screens better. But with a newbie crew do overlay until they get the concept. Then split screen. Then two screens if they’re available. Always have the same orientation. I like north up except in harbors but many like head up. Don’t care as long as they’re the same. I’m pretty insistent people change scale periodically. Personally prefer radar and chart are the same. I want radar heading adjusted so it matches the chart. Have been on boats where isn’t the case and it confuses me. Actually don’t like color radar. Find it clutters things in my thinking. Rather see vectors and MARPA/ARPA if necessary. That maybe because I’m a dust farter. I’m not color blind but have had crew that are. Also at night think it’s easier to save your night vision when there’s no color and you’re only using your rods not your cones.

On the very few occasions I’ve used FLIR have become convinced even during the day if there’s haze not even fog your eyes are foolproof with no false targets. But radar sees stuff you don’t and FLIR and radar give you a different situational awareness.

 

[Northern Spy]

Somebody mentioned a book on radar usage (since the Garmin manual is useless). Any suggestions?

Kevin Monahan"s "The Radar Book" is a decent resource. At least for the fundamentals.

The Radar Book

https://www.amazon.com/Radar-Book-Effective-Navigation-Collision/dp/1932310363

He has the experience and credentials to back up his writing. Used by the power squadrons in the US and Canada.

I have a first edition. If I ever update to a modern radar, I'll buy the second edition. I keep it on the boat and reference it on longer autopilot passages when I am still learning and relearning my radar skills.

 

[Hippocampus]

+1 ns

 

[Seevee]

I find radar-threads interesting. An inquisitive soul posts a true question about use and utility, usually confessing their lack of experience. A dozen or so experienced operators - often with commercial backgrounds - respond. The impression is that truly experienced mariners run/use their radar on 100% of the time. But that's a tiny minority. On any given day, I'd hazard a guess that of the recreational boats equipped with radar, less than 1% are actually running their radar. Let's be honest - most recreational boaters avoid low-visibility conditions.

It takes time getting comfortable running a boat on instruments. I used to do long coastal passages and would get bored so tinkered with instruments and settings a lot. No magic, just time.

BTW - a few people have mentioned being able to see crab floats on their radar. I want whatever radar they have - recommendation please.

Peter

I would think that folks that have radars use it way more often than 1%. (probably time for a poll). How often do you go by a boat and the array is not turning... I find rarely. And just in talking with folks, seems like most have their radar on.


As for running on instruments... yes, can be very tricky. I could argue strongly for an autopilot so you could hold a heading. And, at LEASE have a heading indicator, from a compass. (GPS does NOT have heading). There's a big tendency to wander off heading, especially hand steering. And, one can get vertigo (just like in a airplane) and that will really mess with your head.


My Simrad 4G Broadband, circa 2018 would easily pick up crab traps, and that's not a very expensive unit. Suspect my newer Garmin GMR Fantom™ 24 Radar, which is the biggest dome radar they sell, will work as well of better. NOW, if you have chop, it makes seeing the traps more difficult, and much over a foot or two makes it a lot harder and can easily miss one. Good time for prop cutters.


Now, my old Ray Marine radars were horrible in comparison, circa 2000 to 2008. Got soured on Ray Marine junk, that was so popular as OEM in those years, that I've just choose other manufacturers.

 

[localboy]

First question is why is someone running at full speed in the dark?

He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer. His family has a vacation house on Hat Island (Gedney Island). He was tearing across to get there from Everett Marina on a clear night with good weather. I don’t consider him a boater. His family has a boat to get to the island.

As to the ability to see floats: lots of floats here are mounted on poles (like PVC PIPE) with small weights at the bottom and some visible item mounted at the top of the “staff”. All sorts of flags, pool noodles, streamers...anything to distinguish YOUR pots from the 100s of others. All the red/white floats look the same out there. I can pick those up if I’m going very slowly and it’s flat calm. If it’s just a float, my experience, limited as it is, shows those do not show up. Too low in the water would be my best guess. Even those with some item high enough on a staff are hit/miss.

 

[GFC]

GFC,
I owe you an apology.
Carry on.....

Apology gratefully accepted. Thank you sir.

Carry on.....

 

[backinblue]

Peter several thoughts
Sailing vessels usually aren’t generating much electricity when underway. The biggest advantage of the newer radars is no prolonged warmup and much less draw. Some machines allow you to adjust the interval of the sweep and decrease draw even further. Or you ask crew to do a sweep every 5 or 10 minutes. Leaving it in standby when using an older machine.

Power is different. I can think of few reasons to not have the radar always on if underway. Several posters have commented about using it for weather. This is an awesome tool in my opinion. People who place their complete trust in forecasting haven’t spent enough time on the water. Getting on the correct side of a local squall or even more important as far away as possible from lightning with a Tstorm is huge. We commonly dodge rain on passage. For weather 48m is a big step up.

Even the old radars have presets. Understanding them is important. Why are you using the radar. Weather? To find bouys? To miss ships? To miss boats? Are the likely vessels wood with no reflectors? Or fully kitted out? Understanding the adjustments does make them work better. Have run bird, harbor or buoy in the open ocean at times. Great to miss the small, wooden fish boats you find a surprisingly distance offshore in places like the north side of Puerto Rico.

We like AIS and radar on one screen and chart on another. Even if that means using a split screen. Like two screens better. But with a newbie crew do overlay until they get the concept. Then split screen. Then two screens if they’re available. Always have the same orientation. I like north up except in harbors but many like head up. Don’t care as long as they’re the same. I’m pretty insistent people change scale periodically. Personally prefer radar and chart are the same. I want radar heading adjusted so it matches the chart. Have been on boats where isn’t the case and it confuses me. Actually don’t like color radar. Find it clutters things in my thinking. Rather see vectors and MARPA/ARPA if necessary. That maybe because I’m a dust farter. I’m not color blind but have had crew that are. Also at night think it’s easier to save your night vision when there’s no color and you’re only using your rods not your cones.

On the very few occasions I’ve used FLIR have become convinced even during the day if there’s haze not even fog your eyes are foolproof with no false targets. But radar sees stuff you don’t and FLIR and radar give you a different situational awareness.

I always form my own weather opinions by looking at radar vs. the forecast. However, I use the weather radar that is readily available online or on an app. Curious on your thoughts about online weather radar vs. what you can see with your boat radar. I would think the radar available online is better and also shows past and future radar predictions so it's easier to determine a storm's track.

 

[mvweebles]

I would think that folks that have radars use it way more often than 1%. (probably time for a poll). How often do you go by a boat and the array is not turning... I find rarely. And just in talking with folks, seems like most have their radar on.

I don't doubt many have radar turned on. Whether they devote any screen-space to the radar display is another matter. Let alone actually use it.

Let's face it - vast majority of recreational boating is done by day-use boaters in protected areas. Advent of affordable AIS receivers coupled to MFD/Chartplotters has greatly reduced need for radar to track commercial traffic detection.

Peter

 

[backinblue]

I would think that folks that have radars use it way more often than 1%. (probably time for a poll). How often do you go by a boat and the array is not turning... I find rarely. And just in talking with folks, seems like most have their radar on.

Isn't it true that a radar could be spinning but not transmitting? Mine is enclosed in a dome, but I hear it spinning up when I turn on the GPS unit, even if the radar is not transmitting.

 

[mvweebles]

I always form my own weather opinions by looking at radar vs. the forecast. However, I use the weather radar that is readily available online or on an app. Curious on your thoughts about online weather radar vs. what you can see with your boat radar. I would think the radar available online is better and also shows past and future radar predictions so it's easier to determine a storms track.

My take was Hippo was referring to squalls. These are not reliably picked-up by online weather radar - they are localized cells that can be quite violent albeit relatively short lived. And that assumes you're in an area with (A) internet; and (B) close-in wx forecasting. At night, radar is the only detection. During the day, you can usually detect visually, but radar allows tracking so you can alter course.

To Hippo's other point about power consumption, I've often wondered how sailors do it - especially with older CRT radars that used 2x/3x the power of modern radar sets Newer radar coupled with installation of solar/lithium batteries must be a huge improvement.

I confess, I always turn-on radar, but under most day-use "3-hr tour" conditions, rarely use it. Visual is plenty. That said, I do find radar helpful to pick-up sets of channel markers since they usually have juicy radar reflectors, especially at night. I find I can better see the patterns of how they are laid-out on radar than visually. Inlet buoys also have juicy radar reflectors and can be picked-up via radar long before I can detect visually, even in decent conditions. .

Coastal/Offshore, running without radar is very uncomfortable for me. I get in a pattern where I come on-watch and setup the instruments to my liking - I like to run radar so it's offset with 2/3rds of the display in front; 1/3rd behind. I usually run 6-mile scale which puts around 8-9 miles in front.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

B totally agree land based commercial weather radar is a great resource. But all weather is hyper local. When dodging cells even when very close to shore it’s not helpful once you’ve made your go/no go decision . Resolution of commercial or government radar offshore is even worst for that purpose. Often you’re faced with a line of small squalls. Often you can tip toe between them or at least constantly change course so you’re under them for the least amount of time or on the side with the least wind. With luck and a modicum of skill often you can get past the disturbance without even washing the salt off the boat. So, no onboard radar is very helpful. The greater the range the more helpful for weather avoidance.

 

[Hippocampus]

As usual Peter said it better and first. Agree with Peter’s set up as well. That’s my preference but do change scale periodically. Have avoided troubles by doing so. In areas where there’s military vessels they may be running without AIS. Although returns maybe poor have seen them on radar. Off montauk or other recreational fishing areas when there’s a tournament it’s good to know areas to avoid early on.

 

[Jeff F]

WRT power consumption, my Garmin Fantom 18 uses 18-24w when transmitting, 3w on standby. Modern electronics are remarkable.

 

[markpierce]

Found it confusing when transiting Carquinez Strait when radar sightings disappeared upon approaching. There were no eye-ball sightings. Turned out those radar blips were from devices attached to overhead transmission wires crossing the strait.

https://flightlight.com/products/aerial-marker-balls-for-power-lines-model-jx/

 

[Seevee]

I might argue that on board radar is a lousy tool for weather prediction, and doesn't do too well for avoidance either. It's missing a lot of features for weather... tilt, strikes, doppler, etc. And most don't have the power to see thru weather.



First, boats really can't out run weather, and for the most of us running rivers, small bays, etc., it's just hard to even maneuver much for avoidance. So there's an argument to just hunker down for the most part.


For forecasts, the National Weather Service is golden and one can get all the info needed. The biggest issue is finding risks that are not acceptable.... stuff where you shouldn't leave the dock/anchorage. Look at weather systems, highs/lows, fronts and forecasts. One can get pretty good info for the next 24 hours... and somewhat for 2 to 3 days. However, one can get trends that can be close.



Also, one can look at the NWSs Storm Prediction Center to see what the chances are for really nasty stuff like tornados, hail, high winds... that we really want to avoid.


Now, if one has no internet, XM offers a lot of products.


Don't get your hair wet.....

 

[Hippocampus]

It’s striking how different peoples experience of radar is as concerns weather. Apparently depends on how and where you boat. My experience is diametrically the opposite of SVs. We typically run with the rain filter off when we want to see weather in advance and get excellent returns. Haven’t had issues with seeing vessels nor racons nor land based targets with the right filtering. Yes, sea clutter makes it harder to see the small stuff as does very heavy precipitation. Worse I had was from sleet but don’t see that too often. Different strokes for different boats. Still, think it’s helpful to know what’s going on near you. The other sources mentioned are excellent for go/no go decisions and to be part of your course decisions along with girbs, 500mb, synoptic charts and your weather routers opinion but are of little help when a squall line is moving through. None of things mentioned in post #112 are granular enough to be useful

Even 7kts boat can dodge pretty effectively.

 

[mvweebles]

I might argue that on board radar is a lousy tool for weather prediction, and doesn't do too well for avoidance either. It's missing a lot of features for weather... tilt, strikes, doppler, etc. And most don't have the power to see thru weather.



First, boats really can't out run weather, and for the most of us running rivers, small bays, etc., it's just hard to even maneuver much for avoidance. So there's an argument to just hunker down for the most part.


For forecasts, the National Weather Service is golden and one can get all the info needed. The biggest issue is finding risks that are not acceptable.... stuff where you shouldn't leave the dock/anchorage. Look at weather systems, highs/lows, fronts and forecasts. One can get pretty good info for the next 24 hours... and somewhat for 2 to 3 days. However, one can get trends that can be close.



Also, one can look at the NWSs Storm Prediction Center to see what the chances are for really nasty stuff like tornados, hail, high winds... that we really want to avoid.


Now, if one has no internet, XM offers a lot of products.


Don't get your hair wet.....

If there's access to near real time doppler wx data, you're absolutely correct - shipboard radar is not overly useful. But for longer passages where weather comes in a couple times a day via GRIB, you won't get the level of granularity to avoid weather cells. True, outrunning may not be an option, but you can skirt to the weaker side and avoid heavy squall or lightening.

Somewhere I have a picture looking out PH windows 75 miles off Costa Ricas pacific coast. Radar in foreground shows squall that is quite visible in the distance. From 10 miles out, you have choices on how to pass. In all candor, a lot of this is just a means to pass time. It can be pretty monotonous on long passages - observing weather cells is some of the only sport around.

A couple months ago, a thread was started asking for longest coastal or offshore passage in a recreational powerboat. Given the limited response, I suppose not many people have opportunity to use radar for weather. But for those who are three days out of communications, they will take every morsel of wx data they can get. Radar is useful. Not a substitute for commercial doppler, but when it's all you have......

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

https://www.yachtingworld.com/cruising/bluewater-sailing-techniques-part-3-coping-squalls-60334

SV everything I’ve ever read has said radar is a useful tool when dealing with squalls. They’re pretty common in the Caribbean and you may be struck even on short day trips between islands and also along the US east coast. Compression effects make things much worse if you’re located near the end of an island (usually north end) or parallel to the island but between mountains. So have slowed down or even turned around if I think that’s a possibility. Then return to course after the disturbance has passed through.
Have yet to make a trip between the east coast and eastern Caribbean without having encountered at least one line of them. As Peter implies the line is usually spotty. With enough advanced notice even a slow boat can sometimes slip through. Often if you get a good sense of the entire line and it’s movement you can slow down or head parallel to its movement and have the line miss you altogether. Just like missing a barge on a real long tow.

 

[Scooby5959]

Before I start I was looking for a way to unsubscribe from this website and I ran across this thread so to start let’s just consider myself to be a complete idiot will get that out of the way I don’t really care. This is just my opinion you guys do know what an opinion is right everybody has one Weather you agree with it or not just an opinion. I have a radar on my current boat didn’t have one on the boat I sold a year ago and never bought one for that boat just don’t use them. I remember when I bought my first radar 32 years ago I was so excited to have it I used it every time I use the boat it was a wonderful seeing how far off the coast I was . run 6 miles offshore point North turn on the auto pilot and relax. Now I just use my iPad with a $99 navigation app and my auto pilot. I found the radar to be distracting and unreliable. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve come across a small fishing boat anchored it didn’t show on my radar the point of having it. Like I said you can’t really trust them at times . my GPS gives me the navigation that I need I don’t use radar for that I find them be very reliable . I don’t see how you could out run weather in a seven knot boat maybe you can like I said I told you I was an idiot but I don’t even try . You can stop a seven knot Boat pretty quickly and even quicker going slower so I don’t use it much for that. As for commercial traffic I generally stay out of the commercial lanes I don’t to much worry about commercial traffic other than in general to keep an eye on what’s coming up behind me I don’t find radar to be that much of a help in regards to that. Most useful for fog I generally just slow down like I said I find radar to be unreliable so I slow down. You just can’t completely trust it. If in fog so thick you can’t see past the bow rail I’ll try to find a place to hide . radar would be useful for that but I don’t trust it. I have been told broadband radar is wonderful you can see crab floats ,dead heads ,mother duck and count her ducklings behind her not true. If it were true I would be the first one in line buying a radar. Like I said it’s my opinion I like it or not. Black out your windows and use your radar to navigate as your only means . see how far you would make it. None of you would do that. You could do that with an iPad and a navigation app not that I would but I kind of already have.

 

[BruceK]

Before I start I was looking for a way to unsubscribe from this website and I ran across this thread so to start let’s just consider myself to be a complete idiot will get that out of the way I don’t really care..

You don`t have to unsubscribe, you can just not post,and not look. Unsubscribing, if you can, won`t remove your past posts.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Many of us have navigated with only radar and charts and our ears to guide us, in both fog and moonless nights. Some places I worked you often could not count on proper navigation lights on vessels, maybe sidelights with no stern or all-around light, or maybe none at all, and except for large ships that require 3nm sidelights, you aren’t likely to see them in fog ever.

And yes in calm water I could pick up waterfowl and kayaks and non-reflective aids with full or near full gain and no sea clear, though it didn’t take much wave action to disappear them again, and you wouldn’t want to count on it anyhow.

 

[rsn48]

I think gear and location can determine equipment and usage. In my area of Comox, over to Desolation, AIS is of limited use. I have it both send and receive, but in reality when I am crossing to either Powell River or Lund then heading up, I pass all manner of pleasure boats (the occasional ferry excluded) without AIS. For me AIS is helpful to receive if I want to determine how busy Desolation Sound is. Some souls leave their AIS on all the time, even at anchor so I know when I see lots of boats showing up on AIS and realizing most boaters don't have a sender AIS, I know Desolation will be busy.

And radar equipment will vary from open ocean usage to coastal usage. When I was at the boat show, the Garmin rep said I'd be better off with the 24 inch Fantom radome, it could see some long distance. But in the Inside passage area many of the islands and inlets restrict your radar footprint. If I can effectively see 5 miles in amongst the islands and inlets, I'm happy.

But if I was doing the West Coast of Vancouver Island, particularly approaching Juan de Fuca Strait, I'd love to have AIS that sends. For the non-locals, the Juan de Fuca Strait has commercial ships of all types entering and leaving Seattle and areas, and Vancouver and areas, and the occasional Navy vessel.

 

[Scooby5959]

You don`t have to unsubscribe, you can just not post,and not look. Unsubscribing, if you can, won`t remove your past posts.

I don’t care about removing my posts . I just don’t want this website to sell advertising based on subscriber numbers when I don’t agree with it I don’t want my Subscription to count .