What does radar do that my eyes can't?

[Scooby5959]

I think gear and location can determine equipment and usage. In my area of Comox, over to Desolation, AIS is of limited use. I have it both send and receive, but in reality when I am crossing to either Powell River or Lund then heading up, I pass all manner of pleasure boats (the occasional ferry excluded) without AIS. For me AIS is helpful to receive if I want to determine how busy Desolation Sound is. Some souls leave their AIS on all the time, even at anchor so I know when I see lots of boats showing up on AIS and realizing most boaters don't have a sender AIS, I know Desolation will be busy.

And radar equipment will vary from open ocean usage to coastal usage. When I was at the boat show, the Garmin rep said I'd be better off with the 24 inch Fantom radome, it could see some long distance. But in the Inside passage area many of the islands and inlets restrict your radar footprint. If I can effectively see 5 miles in amongst the islands and inlets, I'm happy.

But if I was doing the West Coast of Vancouver Island, particularly approaching Juan de Fuca Strait, I'd love to have AIS that sends. For the non-locals, the Juan de Fuca Strait has commercial ships of all types entering and leaving Seattle and areas, and Vancouver and areas, and the occasional Navy vessel.

I find AIS to be very useful I know radars have a legitimate use I would just rather spend my time looking out the window Instead of at a radar screen and worrying about things that might not even be accurate like I said I just find it distracting And unreliable that’s just me

 

[BruceK]

I don’t care about removing my posts . I just don’t want this website to sell advertising based on subscriber numbers when I don’t agree with it I don’t want my Subscription to count .

I understand and hope Admin can assist you to "unsubscribe".

 

[Jmarsh203]

If he is referring to commercial tows... unless very small tows, 5 miles would be interesting to be surprised a risk of collision exists when on open water with fast ships around.


If I am not mistaken but haven't found the reference, inspected towboats may need 2 Radars just for the purpose he describes.


Captains also like to have close in and long range simultaneously for collision avoidance and monitor the stern tow. Back around 2000, Simrad came out with a radar with a fast sweep to give the same effect with every other sweep tuned for long range and the next short range. The display could be split to show both close and distance.

Sorry wasn’t very clear about that, yes I was referring to commercial tows are what I work on. I work mainly on the Mississippi and Ohio rivers but also regularly go down to Houston or Corpus Christi. And yes we are now required to have two radar but rarely are either of them set for more than a mile. Usually one is set at 1/4 mile and the other is set at 3/4-1.5 mile. And actually the radars are used for collision avoidance with other boats very little, that’s what AIS and radio are used for mostly. Radar is used as primary means of navigation at night pretty much replacing our eyes looking outside. Gps is used as reference for what’s coming up, AIS is used to see who is coming up and making passing arrangements and on radar the range rings are set as range markers for when we need to start steering for a turn. Also very important for regulating the angle we need to be pointed into the wind when running in the narrow channels when the wind kicks up in the gulf icw. Me using radar at longer ranges has mostly been pleasure boat stuff. Mainly searching for bouys and crab pots in a channel or searching for birds working while fishing or searching for inlets along a coastline. If I didn’t fish and chose weather windows carefully than one unit would do the job, At least until it stops working.... After becoming used to using radar as a primary means of steering at night I would feel blind trying to move at night without one and would not leave dock without it or anchor and wait until daylight if it stopped working while underway.

 

[Hippocampus]

Most of us have limited boat bucks. This thread has been helpful in educating me how different peoples usage of their boats is and therefore how different is the need for and use of radar. If you’re in an area where few boats have AIS having a transceiver maybe lower on your list than radar. Similarly many radar functions maybe unnecessary for you to the point it’s an unnecessary expense.
Here in New England it’s not that unusual to see radar on trailer boats. Maine is famous for its fog and the center consoles chase the birds. So apologize to any I’ve offended. Our perspectives are determined by our experience which is determined by our usage. Respect those who feel it’s an unnecessary expense for them. Hope this thread increased awareness it’s very helpful to others.

 

[backinblue]

WRT power consumption, my Garmin Fantom 18 uses 18-24w when transmitting, 3w on standby. Modern electronics are remarkable.

Also, you may have "sentry" mode where it cycles between transmit and standby at preselected time intervals to save power.

 

[Seevee]

I don’t care about removing my posts . I just don’t want this website to sell advertising based on subscriber numbers when I don’t agree with it I don’t want my Subscription to count .

Scooby,


You seems to really have a negative feeling about this web site, and not much better about radar.


Why are you posting?


Perhaps you should take up golf.

 

[backinblue]

I never knew that everyone on a forum were supposed to agree with each other. That wouldn't serve much purpose.

 

[Seevee]

Most of us have limited boat bucks. This thread has been helpful in educating me how different peoples usage of their boats is and therefore how different is the need for and use of radar. If you’re in an area where few boats have AIS having a transceiver maybe lower on your list than radar. Similarly many radar functions maybe unnecessary for you to the point it’s an unnecessary expense.
Here in New England it’s not that unusual to see radar on trailer boats. Maine is famous for its fog and the center consoles chase the birds. So apologize to any I’ve offended. Our perspectives are determined by our experience which is determined by our usage. Respect those who feel it’s an unnecessary expense for them. Hope this thread increased awareness it’s very helpful to others.

Yes, you certainly have different needs for your radar than some of us, especially me.


I should have mentioned that using radar for weather only make a BIG difference as to where you are. Open water it does have value and gives some opportunity to maneuver to avoid. Inland waterways I find it pretty useless. Heck just trees and hills will obstruct a lot of weather, so it's hard to see. So I understand why you have a different opinion than mine.... fair enough.


I still like the internet as my first line of defense with weather. There's so much info there. And even the apps on the Iphone do a great job. For rain (thunderstorms) the Weather Channel app really does a great job, and won't miss anything do to attenuation or trees. Also, there's excellent info for forecasts so we can just miss the weather all the time, or at least, prepare for it. Choices.....


====
As for reliability for the nay sayers here..... If one has a reasonably modern radar, and knows how to use it, it probably boarders on close to 100% reliable. Realizing that occasionally it won't give you the information you want because of some obstructions.... however, it's predictable.



Love my radar.

 

[backinblue]

I agree, the internet along with marine forecasts on VHF are my go-to choices for weather. There is even this, which is kind of fun, but I haven't found too much use for it yet.

https://www.lightningmaps.org/

However, I can't tell you how many times the online marine weather says something like "South winds 10-15 knts with gusts up to 20 knts, seas 1 foot or less" and you find yourself fighting 6 footers. Happens often where I am, not sure why. Could be data from weather buoys is inaccurate.

 

[toocoys]

I've had a few days to unfrustrate myself, and think a bit, and here are my responses.


I scoffed at the mention of COLREGS. However that doesn't mean that I completely ignore them. I'm not overly concerned with those regulations made for sea travel, however I do (mostly) follow those that immediately affect me. I've taken my boater safety course, I've read up and learned what I needed to to ensure the safety of myself, my passengers, and those boaters around me. The reason that I scoffed was because I'm not going to live my boating life, or make decisions about what my boat is or is not equipped with based on a few lines in a regulation book. Some people enjoy living their lives according to every word in the bible, I don't. But that doesn't mean I'm stupid, ignorant, or proud to be either of those. Those who boat around me can rest assured that I know the rules of the road, and I know how to ensure that you nor your boat will be injured or damaged.

Additionally, we are "fair weather weekend boaters". We live aboard, however we work full time and spend (up until now) 90% of our time tied to the marina dock. If it's raining, we aren't going out. If it's overly windy, we aren't going out. If its foggy, we damn sure aren't going out. And if there's too much local boat traffic, we stay at the dock. I can't predict what other boaters will do, and because this is our home, we don't take any major chances getting into a situation that may increase our risks of damaging or losing our home.

When I asked, what I see now is a poorly worded question, and probably a completely unnecessary one, "what can radar do", it was based solely on my own boating experiences. That means that when we go out into the bay on our little 7nm away from home weekend trip, I can see the commercial ships in the ship channel from miles away. I can see the kayaker on my starboard side. I can see the shore line. I can see the oncoming weekend cruiser vessel.

For my boating needs, radar seems like a waste of console space, an unnecessary draw on my power systems, and since my radar system is so antiquated, it seems like technology that doesn't enhance my boating experience. Should we find ourselves venturing out into the gulf, or further down the ICW in the future, that may change.

The only reason that was mentioned, that may be helpful to me, is if it can pick up an oncoming thunderstorm or weather event. And even then, I'm more likely to pick up my cell phone and look at the weather radar according to NOAA than I am relying on a piece of 30 year old radar equipment.

 

[High Wire]

Here is a photo of a squall line coming at night about 24 miles away. Radar is on 48 mile range. Taken from Caloosahatchee River across from City of Fort Myers Yacht Basin.

 

[Hippocampus]

Archie can’t read the corners and don’t know the spot. Are you headed parallel and in the opposite direction from the squalls motion?

 

[High Wire]

I’m at anchor, not moving calm winds. The storm is approaching from my starboard side. The radar display is set for “head up “. The top of the display is 000 relative. The location is about 15 miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico.

 

[backinblue]

Archie, nice photo and useful, however, would you not see the same thing on a weather app including a prediction of future movement of the storm? Not saying you can't use your boat radar for that, but not sure how it is superior unless you have no internet or cell service.

 

[psneeld]

Archie, nice photo and useful, however, would you not see the same thing on a weather app including a prediction of future movement of the storm? Not saying you can't use your boat radar for that, but not sure how it is superior unless you have no internet or cell service.

Not always in cel range but there are other methods to get land based RADAR.

 

[backinblue]

I've had a few days to unfrustrate myself, and think a bit, and here are my responses.


I scoffed at the mention of COLREGS. However that doesn't mean that I completely ignore them. I'm not overly concerned with those regulations made for sea travel, however I do (mostly) follow those that immediately affect me. I've taken my boater safety course, I've read up and learned what I needed to to ensure the safety of myself, my passengers, and those boaters around me. The reason that I scoffed was because I'm not going to live my boating life, or make decisions about what my boat is or is not equipped with based on a few lines in a regulation book. Some people enjoy living their lives according to every word in the bible, I don't. But that doesn't mean I'm stupid, ignorant, or proud to be either of those. Those who boat around me can rest assured that I know the rules of the road, and I know how to ensure that you nor your boat will be injured or damaged.

Additionally, we are "fair weather weekend boaters". We live aboard, however we work full time and spend (up until now) 90% of our time tied to the marina dock. If it's raining, we aren't going out. If it's overly windy, we aren't going out. If its foggy, we damn sure aren't going out. And if there's too much local boat traffic, we stay at the dock. I can't predict what other boaters will do, and because this is our home, we don't take any major chances getting into a situation that may increase our risks of damaging or losing our home.

When I asked, what I see now is a poorly worded question, and probably a completely unnecessary one, "what can radar do", it was based solely on my own boating experiences. That means that when we go out into the bay on our little 7nm away from home weekend trip, I can see the commercial ships in the ship channel from miles away. I can see the kayaker on my starboard side. I can see the shore line. I can see the oncoming weekend cruiser vessel.

For my boating needs, radar seems like a waste of console space, an unnecessary draw on my power systems, and since my radar system is so antiquated, it seems like technology that doesn't enhance my boating experience. Should we find ourselves venturing out into the gulf, or further down the ICW in the future, that may change.

The only reason that was mentioned, that may be helpful to me, is if it can pick up an oncoming thunderstorm or weather event. And even then, I'm more likely to pick up my cell phone and look at the weather radar according to NOAA than I am relying on a piece of 30 year old radar equipment.

Thanks for the explanation and I see no issue with your thinking. I've boated most of my life and never had radar till my new boat purchase and I'm still here having navigated prior to when GPS was around, including plenty of low visibility situations in fog or darkness. Maybe I was more lucky than good. I do think your original question and you scoffing at COLREGS understandably put some people on edge, but your fuller explanation makes sense to me and applies to a large percentage of boaters on the water.

 

[slowgoesit]

I don’t care about removing my posts . I just don’t want this website to sell advertising based on subscriber numbers when I don’t agree with it I don’t want my Subscription to count .

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[toocoys]

I do think your original question and you scoffing at COLREGS understandably put some people on edge, but your fuller explanation makes sense to me and applies to a large percentage of boaters on the water.

You should see what happens when I tell people I drive 75 even though the sign says 60!

 

[High Wire]

Archie, nice photo and useful, however, would you not see the same thing on a weather app including a prediction of future movement of the storm? Not saying you can't use your boat radar for that, but not sure how it is superior unless you have no internet or cell service.

Not arguing "superior" but it does beat the eyes when there are clouds or darkness about. I was quite surprised by the detail of this particular storm that far away, so much that I took a photo of it. Its not everyday you get to see 60 miles of squall line. Agree that a weather app is awesome when available.

 

[dhays]

Interesting, and typical, radar thread. I only now read through it.

I didn’t have radar on a boat until 2010 when it was part of the electronics package on the used Catalina 400 I bought. Before that, all my navigation was with charts, compass, and eyes.

I really liked the chart plotter on the new boat, but didn’t use the radar much unless conditions were poor such as low light, heavy rain, or fog. During those times, I really liked having the radar. However the rest of the time it didn’t seem to be worth the screen real estate or power on my sailboat.

When I bought our current boat, I gradually started using the Radar more and more. The biggest reason for this was that I had two MFDs for Nav package. Half of one screen now is usually dedicated to the Radar. As others had suggested, the most I used it the more useful it becomes.

I try to avoid conditions where radar would be a “necessity”. However, it happens on rare occasions. I am very happy to have radar during those times.

So I love the radar and every year am getting better and using it. I will say however, that while radar will show me a commercial freighter or a tug and the three barges that it is towing, my Radar doesn’t tell them where I am. AIS tells me where they are, but without an AIS transceiver, I am counting on their radar watch to spot me. What I really want to have, and have been looking for a bit, is an AIS transceiver.

There are a lot of lazy or careless boaters out there. I’d like my boat to at least show up on their chart plotter as an AIS target.

 

[Benthic2]

You may never go out in bad conditions, but bad conditions might arise when you weren't expecting them, or you may find yourself returning after dark despite your best laid plans. Having a radar unit you were familiar with would be very helpful then.

I could see someone deciding not to purchase a radar set up due to boating style or budget reasons, but if you already have the equipment installed it seems like it would be worth the time investment to get familiar with it. As someone mentioned there is probably a Youtube video that could get you up and running in 15 - 20 minutes. It might be worth finding the video and putting "watch radar video" on your quarterly maintenance schedule just for kicks.

 

[Seevee]

Archie, nice photo and useful, however, would you not see the same thing on a weather app including a prediction of future movement of the storm? Not saying you can't use your boat radar for that, but not sure how it is superior unless you have no internet or cell service.

Yes, that is quite a nice photo.


Here's something to think about....
The on board radar is instant, you are looking exactly at where the weather is.
The "radar" on the internet is latent as is XM and other digital weather products. There are some interesting articles on how this image is generated to give a reasonable picture of what's out there. The digitizing process takes a "slice" of the radar image and moves up a few degress and takes another slice.... so we end up with a lot of slices of weather at different angles. With this info the provider can provide a "general picture" or "high or low" altitude weather. Generally, the digital weather we look at is pretty much "lower" weather, because WE are lower.



So, the latency is perhaps 2 to 4 minutes or more. Doesn't sound like much, but with squall lines moving at 30 knots, 2 minutes is a mile.


So.... for avoidance, there is an argument to use the digital stuff for strategic avoidance and repositioning to avoid the weather and in some cases, like several hours warning might give the choice to better secure the anchor or head back to port. The on board radar may be used for tactical avoidance, but perhaps to maneuver a small distance. But, because a boat move so slow, it's really hard to out run or totally avoid the weather.


We use similar in aviation, however, it's MUCH easier to totally avoid the nasty stuff. So, if you can get your boat to fly, you have a better chance.

 

[JDCAVE]

Interesting thread. There have been several others in the past that are similar.

During the first year we first bought our boat, I never turned it, because I was out in fair weather all the time. Then someone emphasized something I already knew from the Colregs, if you have radar, it was my responsibility to learn how to use it and have it on at all times. So I followed that advice. And I bought Kevin Monaghan’s book on the subject. He taught me how to tune the radar and how to use it. In the book he emphasized: radar is the most important navigational aid on the boat to for collision avoidance. That statement, from a former member of the coast guard resonated with me…

I don’t have MARPA or ARPA on my radar, which is an older Furuno 1942 with a 4’ open array. Although 20+ years old, it is by no means obsolete. In fact Furuno still supports the unit. It is on all the time and I constantly refer to its screen to affirm what I am seeing on the plotter. And…for longer distant targets that are not on AIS, it gives me my earliest indication of collision risk. And when I have to travel in the fog, my eyes are on the radar constantly and I move back and forth between the range settings. My biggest concern when traveling in the fog isn’t my interpretation of the radar screen. It’s that other boaters aren’t looking at, or aren’t using or don’t have radar to see me. So I take great care when I see a collision risk in the fog to avoid it. And I remember two such instances. Without radar, who knows what would have occurred.

Jim

 

[cks]

Use your radar in clear weather to get a correlation to what you see around the boat relative to what is displayed on the screen. I very rarely need a radar BUT when needed it is a god send. It’s a valuable instrument during the night, fog and rain. The latter is more likely than you know. We got caught in a microburst and couldn’t see $&%t! The radar showed me what’s in front and what’s sneaking up astern.?

 

[steve Dublin]

Radar is always right?

I have to disagree with the comment that radar is always right. In low lying areas (beaches etc) like in Florida and the Bahamas it can often be very difficult to determine where the shore actually lies. One advantage of AIS is you get the commercial vessels name, without which, they often will not respond to your VHF call.
Cheers Steve Dublin

 

[ronobrien]

As my old Irish grandfather used to say, "I'd rather be lookin at it than lookin fur it"

 

[Bob M]

Radar would has been useful a couple of times during dense fog in Great Lakes shipping lanes. However, on rivers with barges, AIS has been more useful, since radar can't see around corners.


The Boat Beacon app works well for us. It's not the ultimate in AIS, but it is useful.

 

[Sieben]

Here are a few good reasons. Needed absolutely for fog or no visibility. Coming into Monterey we used the GPS, chart plotter, and the radar. The radar showed the entrance walls. The Chart showed us where we were. We got close to one of the entrance markers which we could see, could not see the other one. Headed into the anchorage about 200 yards and dropped the hook.
We could not see the bow of our 42' sailboat from the aft cockpit. Visibility was about 3'. We were surprised to see other boats anchored within 50' of ours when we got up in the morning.

Other uses are to locate ships or vessels at night who may not have on AIS or who do. Locates bridges and break wall entrances. Shows rain squalls coming. I have an older Raymarine unit and know how to use it. Newer models just have more bells and whistles. I'm not replacing mine unless it breaks. Learn to use the range finding functions and the gain. If the gain is off you may see nothing. Practice with it at day and night and look out the window to confirm what your looking at on the screen. Ours is down below. Range circles can be set for different distance circles from you. We have used it extensively in the SF Bay and Costal sailing up and down the West Coast. Hope this helps.

Remember the Costco Busan oil tanker who hit the Bay Bridge in SF Bay All other ships were grounded to port due to fog. He made many mistakes and hit the bridge in fog spilling some 46K gallons of crude. John

Below is the article.

The Cosco Busan oil spill occurred at 08:30 UTC-8 on 7 November 2007 between San Francisco and Oakland, California, in which 53,569 US gal (202,780 L) of IFO-380 heavy fuel oil, sometimes referred to as "bunker fuel", spilled into San Francisco Bay after the container ship Cosco Busan, operated by Fleet Management Limited struck Delta Tower of the San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge in thick fog.

Investigators found that maritime pilot John Cota was impaired because of his use of prescription pharmaceuticals while piloting the container vessel, which rendered him unable to use the onboard radar and electronic navigation charts correctly. This occurred despite the fact that the Vessel Traffic Service of the United States Coast Guard warned Cota that the vessel was headed for the bridge.[1] Cota was sentenced to 10 months in federal prison for his role in the incident.[2]Remember the Costco Busan oil tanker who hit the Bay Bridge in SF Bay All other ships were grounded to port due to fog. He made many mistakes and hit the bridge in fog spilling some 10k thousands of gallons of crude. John

 

[backinblue]

That's more of a drug issue than a radar issue! All the electronics in the world aren't going to save an impaired or incompetent capt. until such ships are self-driving.

 

[MVDarlin]

Learn how to use it. I had a similar unit that served me well for almost 20 years of coastal cruising. No substitute in for.