Charging LFP - Silent Mode/Re-Bulk?

[mvweebles]

I have a Magnum 3kw Inverter/Charger. It does not have a LFP setting, but does have ability to set custom settings.

I found this video off a DIY Solar site. Slow start, but gets interesting. He seems to suggest using a custom setting where charger charges LFP bank, then goes into 'silent' mode where it shuts down to a pre-programmed setting. In short, the batteries are charged in Absorb to 14.1v (or whatever your OEM suggests), then held there for 20-30 mins per 100AH battery, then the charger shuts down until the batteries drop to a pre-set voltage (13.2V for example) where it enters a 're-bulk' phase to bring the batteries back to 14.1v.

Best I can understand, this tracks with current thinking of best way to charge LFPs - not to hold them at 100% SoC indefinitely, rather let them drop to 70% SoC (13.2v for example).

Thoughts on whether this approach makes sense?

Thanks in advance - Peter

 

[SteveK]

Did you intend to attach a link?
Care to share your custom settings and how you programmed them?

 

[mvweebles]

Did you intend to attach a link?
Care to share your custom settings and how you programmed them?

Ugghhhh..... I updated my OP with the YouTUbe video link. Like I said, starts slow but gathers momentum.

My batteries are Lion Energy 100AH (six of them). Lion recommends 13.9 - 14.4 Charge point, though some of their literature suggests 13.9 which is relatively low. I chose 14.1 knowing there was a bit of loss in my system, plus a bit higher to balance the batteries. .

Settings on Magnum:
03 Absorb
>>>> CV/CC Controlled (CC/CV means "Constant Charge/Constant Voltage" a bit of a misnomer explained in the video

04 Battery Type = CC/CV
-- Silent
>>>> Max Amps 120 (NOTE - this is the rating of the Charger)
>>>> Charge Volts = 14.1v
>>>> End Charge = DC Amps
>>>> Done Amps = 40 ADC
>>>> Max Time = 6.0Hr
>>>> Recharge = 13.2V

So the Charger will pump-out up to 120 Amps until 14.1V is reached, then taper off in Absorb. Once it declines to 40 Amps (or 6-hours has elapsed), it drops into "Silent Mode" where the charger shuts down. Once 13.2V is reached (approx 70% SoC), the charger returns to 120 Amp charge and the cycle repeats.

I have no idea what the "Done Amps" should be set at. I randomly chose 40A because I have a standard load of fridge/freezer around 15-20 Amps, so 40 seems like a reasonable floor. But I'd appreciate feedback on what this 'done amps' should be.

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

Another way to get there if it is available on your charger is to charge to 14.1 (bulk/absorb), then go to a float setting at 13.2 or so. The difference is that the charger should (will try) to pick up the loads in float and the batts will stay at 13.2, rather than re-entering the full charge mode back up to 14.1. Either will work, and the either is better than holding the battery bank at 14.1 over time.

 

[mvweebles]

Another way to get there if it is available on your charger is to charge to 14.1 (bulk/absorb), then go to a float setting at 13.2 or so. The difference is that the charger should (will try) to pick up the loads in float and the batts will stay at 13.2, rather than re-entering the full charge mode back up to 14.1. Either will work, and the either is better than holding the battery bank at 14.1 over time.

There may be this type of setting under a custom settings menu. It makes sense, but begs another question - there's a decent chance that when you leave dock, your batteries will be something closer to 70% SoC vs 100%. Do you just depend on the alternator to bring them back? I have been slowly managing the same issue with my Balmar alternator. When I stop to anchor, batteries may be quite a bit below 100% SoC. I'm adjusting absorb for this, but still, there is the risk that batteries start at perhaps 70% SoC when the charger is removed (or alternator).

Or am I missing something?

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

There may be this type of setting under a custom settings menu. It makes sense, but begs another question - there's a decent chance that when you leave dock, your batteries will be something closer to 70% SoC vs 100%. Do you just depend on the alternator to bring them back? I have been slowly managing the same issue with my Balmar alternator. When I stop to anchor, batteries may be quite a bit below 100% SoC. I'm adjusting absorb for this, but still, there is the risk that batteries start at perhaps 70% SoC when the charger is removed (or alternator).

Or am I missing something?

Peter

You aren't missing anything and you raise a good point. I can’t remember if you have a programmable Balmar external regulator for your alternator, but hopefully you do. Set that to float at 13.5v and you will arrive at your destination fully charged. The lower float setting on your shore power charger will keep the bank at a lower SOC for extended periods at the dock for whatever gain that provides. When you use the gen to charge on anchor it will hit 100% SOC with the bulk/absorb settings that you have.

Peter/TT is the source of this arrangement, and may be along to explain it better than I can. This is how our LFP system is set up and I couldn’t be happier with it. He did a nice writeup on it and it makes perfect sense. i don’t think he will mind me passing it along.

 

[Portage_Bay]

You might want to look into the Sterling Battery Chemistry Module. It may help you properly charge lithium from a charger lacking a lithium setting.

8 selectable independent latest battery chemistries to chose from and a de-sulphation cycle, also LiFePO4 cycle.

 

[tiltrider1]

I talked to Eco-worth, the manufacture of the batteries I bought. They actually recommended that I use Magnum's custom set up and they had very specific bulk and float voltages that they wanted me to use. I asked them about silent mode. Their opinion was that while it was technically better for the battery, practically, I would see no difference.

Practically I am very likely to notice a difference between 70% SOC and a 100% SOC when I actually need the batteries. So I took their advice and programmed in the bulk and float voltages they recommended.

 

[SteveK]

I watched the video and done amps of '0' charges to 100 amps or on the video the charger max charge of 100 amps. you have it set to 40, which I think means it will charge to 60 amps. I concluded that since '0' is opposite end of 100. set at 20 would charge to 80, whereas 80 would charge to 20. But I cpuld be asbackwards.

Your Magna must be older than 2018. It was somewhere around then that LFP profile was included if memory of readings is correct.
My LFP wants 14.4 for absord and floats at 13.5 but no current unless there is a load calling for it.

 

[tiltrider1]

I watched the video and done amps of '0' charges to 100 amps or on the video the charger max charge of 100 amps. you have it set to 40, which I think means it will charge to 60 amps. I concluded that since '0' is opposite end of 100. set at 20 would charge to 80, whereas 80 would charge to 20. But I cpuld be asbackwards.

Your Magna must be older than 2018. It was somewhere around then that LFP profile was included if memory of readings is correct.
My LFP wants 14.4 for absord and floats at 13.5 but no current unless there is a load calling for it.

Actually, the program is in the Remote unit. Older ME-ARC does not have a Lithium profile. The newer ones do. You would not need to replace the actual Inverter/charger, just the remote.

That said, the profile that Magnum used did not meet the profile recommended by my battery manufacture. They recommended that I use their number in the custom profile section which the older remotes support.

Again, what my battery manufacture recommends might not be the same as a different manufacture would recommend so there is not one answer fits all here.

 

[twistedtree]

You aren't missing anything and you raise a good point. I can’t remember if you have a programmable Balmar external regulator for your alternator, but hopefully you do. Set that to float at 13.5v and you will arrive at your destination fully charged. The lower float setting on your shore power charger will keep the bank at a lower SOC for extended periods at the dock for whatever gain that provides. When you use the gen to charge on anchor it will hit 100% SOC with the bulk/absorb settings that you have.

Peter/TT is the source of this arrangement, and may be along to explain it better than I can. This is how our LFP system is set up and I couldn’t be happier with it. He did a nice writeup on it and it makes perfect sense. i don’t think he will mind me passing it along.

Thanks for saving me the typing!


First, I prefer an approach where you charge then float, rather than charge-stop-charge like the video suggests. Both approaches keep the battery from sitting at 100% SOC when plugged into shore power for an extended time - that's good. But the charge-stop-charge approach is constantly cycling your batteries to carry the boat's background power draw when you don't have to because you have shore power. With the charge-float approach you do one cycle drawing from the batteries to bring them down from bulk to float, but then they settle at the float voltage/SOC and stay there with no gratuitous cycling. And your charger operating at the float voltage, carries the house loads.


Now you bring up a good point which is that you will be departing your dock at 70% SOC rather than 100%, and this could result in arriving at anchor with less than 100%, which is not desirable. It all comes down to how much underway charge capacity you have from alternators, solar, etc., and how long you typically run before anchoring. So far for me, I have always been fully recharged by the time I reach my anchorage.


Another way to think about it is that leaving a dock at 70% SOC is no different from leaving a anchorage at 70% or less SOC, and running to your next anchorage. The goal/hope is that by the time you reach your next anchorage, the batteries are back up to 100% when you drop the hook and shut down the engine. If you routinely are not reaching full charge by the time you reach your anchorage, then consider increasing your alternator capacity. Or just accept that you will need a bit more generator time.



One trick, however, is to set your alternator float voltage higher so it maintains the batteries at 100% rather than letting them drop down to 70% like your shore charger. The thinking is that you won't be sitting on float at 100% for weeks or months on end, so no harm will be done, and it ensures that on longer runs the batteries remain at 100%, ready for anchoring. I have my alternator set to float at 27V (13.5V), but I played with it a bit to find the spot that just barely holds the batteries at 100%. I highly recommend doing this to find the right spot for your system. It's really important that you not be continually pumping current into the batteries.


Humm, I still ended up typing a bunch....

 

[Don L]

Thoughts on whether this approach makes sense?

Thanks in advance - Peter

I think this is no different than an AGM etc. setting of 14.1V absorption and 13.2V float and is just fine. Whether the charger drops to 13.2V and stays on at that setpoint or if it goes "silent" is meaningless IMO.

 

[mvweebles]

Okay, thanks to all who responded. Discussion has been super helpful, especially the comments to consider setting Float such that house loads are carried by charger vs batteries.

My Magnum pre-dates the LFP setting but frankly, it sounds like that profile isn't a good end point anyway. Recall, yesterday I configured so the batteries charged to 14.1v, then charger went to Silent mode until a lower limit was hit (13.2V) which triggered the charger to restart. This is what Magnum calls "CC/CV" mode.

I did a bit more tinkering and ended up using the "Custom" battery type (instead of CC/CV). I set ABSORB at 14.1V; FLOAT at 13.2V; and END CHARGE to "Multi." In Magnum-speak, "Multi" means there is an additional charge source - Solar in my case - and adjusts FLOAT accordingly (I'm a bit skeptical about this, but that's what it's supposed to do and it does appear the charger's output is reduced with Solar cranking away midday here in Mazatalan).

Thanks again - very helpful discussion for me.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Okay, thanks to all who responded. Discussion has been super helpful, especially the comments to consider setting Float such that house loads are carried by charger vs batteries.

My Magnum pre-dates the LFP setting but frankly, it sounds like that profile isn't a good end point anyway. Recall, yesterday I configured so the batteries charged to 14.1v, then charger went to Silent mode until a lower limit was hit (13.2V) which triggered the charger to restart. This is what Magnum calls "CC/CV" mode.

I did a bit more tinkering and ended up using the "Custom" battery type (instead of CC/CV). I set ABSORB at 14.1V; FLOAT at 13.2V; and END CHARGE to "Multi." In Magnum-speak, "Multi" means there is an additional charge source - Solar in my case - and adjusts FLOAT accordingly (I'm a bit skeptical about this, but that's what it's supposed to do and it does appear the charger's output is reduced with Solar cranking away midday here in Mazatalan).

Thanks again - very helpful discussion for me.

Peter

The CC/CV thing just describes a bulk mode (CC, or constant current) followed by an absorb mode (CV, or constant voltage). The transition occurs when the CC has brought the voltage up to the CV level. When Float comes along, it's another CV cycle, just at a different voltage.



The adjustments you make are to the CV level, typically called Bulk or Absorb, and they are typically the same. Then you can program the duration of the CV stage based on time, return current, or a combination of the two. And some chargers get "smart" and vary the time element based on how long it took to get through the bulk stage.


On tip would be to make sure the time in absorb isn't too long. It need to be long enough to let your balancers do their thing, but no longer. I like to see it measured in minutes, not hours. The batteries are find with 10 minutes or so, so anything longer than that would only be because the balancers need it, or because you can't set the charger to such a short absorb time. 4 or 6 hours is much too long, and is a lead holdover.

 

[mvweebles]

Magnum Charger settings for LFP Batteries (Lithium - LiFePO4)

For future reference, here are the settings I ended up with on my 3000W Magnum Inverter/Charger (125A charger). I used the set-points of 14.1v for ABSORB charge, and 13.2V for FLOAT charge.

First, the following is my 'lessons learned' from this thread - lessons from some great contributors. Please correct anything I got wrong, or of course fill-in any gaps where I missed something.

The video in the OP suggested battery type of CC/CV. This results in the charger going dormant while the batteries decline from 14.1v down to 13.2v. At 13.2v, the charger is awakened and tops-off the battery back to 14.1V when it shuts-down ("SILENT" in Magnum-speak). This means that in CC/CV mode, the batteries are almost always carrying the house loads, not the charger.

As "Guy with a Boat" said, better than holding the batteries at constant 14.1v, but less than ideal because the batteries power the house loads. "TwistedTree" suggested finding a setting where the Charger carries the house loads, not the batteries. I believe I have done just that and wanted to capture the settings for future reference.

I changed to the <CUSTOM> battery type with the same 14.1v ABSORB/13.2v FLOAT set points. In CUSTOM, the ABSORB time needs to be set. I have six 100Ah Lion Energy batteries - I used 15-mins each so 1.5-hours in ABSORB. When the time expires, the Charger shuts-down and the batteries descend to 13.6v, their at-rest 100% charged state. House-loads cause the bank to further decline to 13.2v whereupon the Charger enters FLOAT and carries the house loads indefinitely. This means that in CUSTOM mode, the charger almost always carries the house loads, not the batteries.

For future search reference, here are the Magnum Charger settings I used for my 600Ah bank of Lion Energy LiFePO4 batteries:

Under the SETUP menu screen:

03 Absorb Time:




04 Battery Type:







09 Final Charge (this is the mode Charger goes to after ABSORB is complete). This is the biggest difference between "CUSTOM" and "CC/CV" because it means the Charger will carry the house loads once it hits FLOAT:




Note in "FINAL CHARGE" selection. There is also a "MULTI" option instead of "FLOAT". Multi is supposedly for when there are other charging sources such as solar, which I have. I will tinker with going to MULTI to see what happens, but for purposes of this post, I'm going with FLOAT as the final stage.

TWO CLOSING THOUGHTS

1. 13.2v/70% FLOAT setting: While FLOAT at 13.2v means the batteries will almost always be at 70% charge which is good for the batteries, it does mean you will depart on a trip with batteries that are not topped-off to 100%. This should not be a problem if your alternator has decent output and is configured properly as it will immediately go to BULK and top-off the batteries within a couple hours. You could also increase the FLOAT setpoint to a higher value so the batteries are charged more fully (13.3v would give approx 85%).
   
2. What about Magnum's LFP battery type setting instead of CUSTOM? My charger pre-dates the inclusion of a LFP battery type so I cannot speak directly, but my guess is the LFP settings are pretty generic and probably not as well thought out as the above 14.1v/13.2v ABSORB/FLOAT set points. I'd be interested in anyone's direct experience with a newer Magnum with LFP settings.

Hope this helps someone down the line. Has been a good learning experience for me. Thanks again to all who contributed.

Peter

 

[Don L]

I think this whole subject really depends on how you use your charger. Do you turn it on to charge and then turn off? Or do you turn it on and leave it on?

 

[SteveK]

I have a magnasine 2000 with ME-RC REMOTE. It has a LFP battery type choice as well as custom and cc/cv. absorb 14.4, float 13.6. absorb 14.4 is what my battery OEM calls for, did not notice other LFP calling for less until now. Absorb time is chosen based on bank Ah size. Float is controlled by LFP is what screen displays. volts stay 13.5 and current sits at 0 unless there is a load. With my BMS monitor I can see 0 amps to battery and load amps sent by charger.
The only head scratcher I have is that my bats are 100% SOC all the time.

 

[Delfin]

I have a Magnum 3kw Inverter/Charger. It does not have a LFP setting, but does have ability to set custom settings.

I found this video off a DIY Solar site. Slow start, but gets interesting. He seems to suggest using a custom setting where charger charges LFP bank, then goes into 'silent' mode where it shuts down to a pre-programmed setting. In short, the batteries are charged in Absorb to 14.1v (or whatever your OEM suggests), then held there for 20-30 mins per 100AH battery, then the charger shuts down until the batteries drop to a pre-set voltage (13.2V for example) where it enters a 're-bulk' phase to bring the batteries back to 14.1v.

Best I can understand, this tracks with current thinking of best way to charge LFPs - not to hold them at 100% SoC indefinitely, rather let them drop to 70% SoC (13.2v for example).

Thoughts on whether this approach makes sense?

Thanks in advance - Peter

Peter, I'm odd man out in my management practice of directing charge sources to a LA starter bank when the LFP are at the charge state I want them - 60% soc if being stored, 100% if headed for an anchorage. This avoids the 'needless cycling' TT references, with other benefits, but if you are going to cycle your described approach makes sense. The only other comment I'd make is that some (all?) assemblers of LFP note that at a voltage of about 13.2, the battery is somewhere between 30 and 70% soc, so I'm unclear whether a simple target voltage to trigger recharge is very effective. I use an amp counter, triggering recharge when I've used 50 - 80% of capacity.

 

[mvweebles]

I have a magnasine 2000 with ME-RC REMOTE. It has a LFP battery type choice as well as custom and cc/cv. absorb 14.4, float 13.6. absorb 14.4 is what my battery OEM calls for, did not notice other LFP calling for less until now. Absorb time is chosen based on bank Ah size. Float is controlled by LFP is what screen displays. volts stay 13.5 and current sits at 0 unless there is a load. With my BMS monitor I can see 0 amps to battery and load amps sent by charger.
The only head scratcher I have is that my bats are 100% SOC all the time.

I don't think SoC readouts are all that accurate. Pretty sure they do rough math on amp-hours in vs amp-hours out. I've noticed my SoC compared to voltage gets less accurate as more Ah's are consumed.

At any rate, looks like 13.5v at-rest is very close to 100% SoC. I suppose that one of the issues with SoC accuracy is very small changes in voltage result in relatively large changes in SoC. I went with 13.2v so I could keep mine at 70% SoC. LFP builders seem to ship their batteries at 50%-70% SoC so I figure a lower SoC is preferable. Probably doesn't make a huge difference, but doesnt make a different to me whether the batteries float at 70% or 100%.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

I went with 13.2v so I could keep mine at 70% SoC

when you see 13.2v do you also see 70% SOC? Note to self to check this out.

OK, why did you choose 14.1v for absorb?

 

[Iggy]

There may be this type of setting under a custom settings menu. It makes sense, but begs another question - there's a decent chance that when you leave dock, your batteries will be something closer to 70% SoC vs 100%. Do you just depend on the alternator to bring them back? I have been slowly managing the same issue with my Balmar alternator. When I stop to anchor, batteries may be quite a bit below 100% SoC. I'm adjusting absorb for this, but still, there is the risk that batteries start at perhaps 70% SoC when the charger is removed (or alternator).

Or am I missing something?

Peter

I have a Magnum charger with a LiFe04 batteries too. As far as I can tell and I am no expert the video is a good guide. Magnum & the batteries tech support suggested using the same menu settings. Just deferent values with in them, which as why it might be a good idea to call your tech support for the correct value setting.

On the "perhaps 70% SoC". Yes, your not missing something and I asked the same question to both tech supports. They suggest to turn off the shore power and turn it back on. This will force the charger "on" for about 15 minuets, roughly.

After two years this has not been a problem. The batteries get topped off, or sort of before leaving the dock. As mentioned by others, the Alt can take over but what are the settings of that charging system. In other words, I use a DC to DC charger and that will not turn on until the house drops around 13.2V to 13V. I can't remember the exact settings

 

[cafesport]

You guys charging with magnums are you using the BMK for voltage?

 

[mvweebles]

when you see 13.2v do you also see 70% SOC? Note to self to check this out.

OK, why did you choose 14.1v for absorb?

Right now, under cloudy skies I see 67% SoC at 13.18v off my Victron SmartShunt with 205Ah of 600 consumed (66% SoC). My Magnum only reads one decimal point, so 1/10th of a volt. Right now, the Magnum float is working to balance house load plus solar - SmartShunt shows between 0A and -5A. So it's definitely working to stay in the 13.2v zone, a bit beneath right now.

Decision for 14.1v Absorb was not very scientific. OEM for my batteries recommends 13.9v charge to achieve full charge, which is about the lowest I've seen. However, in other literature, they state they can accept between 13.9v and 14.5v. Because I have six batteries, I wanted a mildly higher charge to encourage them to 'balance.' At least that was my thinking.

I am 'meh' on my Lion Energy batteries. I bought them before the floodgates on LFP batteries opened a year or so ago - the only other option was Battle Born. Going with six 100Ah batteries paralleled is a crazy approach. They seem to work fine, but their Tech Support is not very technical so much of this is feeling through the dark. In a couple years, I will buy replacement batteries and install better solar panels. But for right now, both work fine.

You guys charging with magnums are you using the BMK for voltage?

Yes -

Peter

 

[SteveK]

Peter, I am going thru a learning curve as well. With my bats I did not see a range to charge at, only charge 14.4v, so I set it there. Magna defaults to 14.4v as a start. I suppose more reading is needed and you may have it right on to keep it topped at 70% SOC with the 14.1v setting.

You guys charging with magnums are you using the BMK for voltage?

I am not using a BMK as I bought the BMS monitor before I was aware of the BMK which only adds the information into the remote display instead of having a separate BMS display. I already had a shunt display, it becomes interesting to see them showing different readings when a load is turned on. At no load they all show same voltage, not always same SOC.

 

[mvweebles]

I posted screen shots of my settings in hopes that someone down the road will benefit. I feel like there is a ton of data out there but not much information. The idea of bulk/absorb at a recognized higher voltage but then dropping to a seemingly low float seems weird. Just not what I'm used to, but could be I just never knew what was proper with lead acid batteries. In hindsight, explains why I didn't get more than a few years out of my old six by 6vGC bank before they'd swell and die.

Before I started adjusting my Magnum, it was full time at 14.0v for the last 6 months or so. Not optimal but I'm not too worried either.

I also went through similar head scratching with my Balmar 612 regulator. What was really frustrating was even Marine-How-To, normally a reliable source, was vague on Balmar LFP settings. Worse, Collins states in his video "don't blindly accept the Balmar LFP settings." He explains in length how to make adjustments, but is purposefully vague on what the settings should be. Very frustrating.
.
I'll do a separate update on my regulator settings. Right now, if I were to match my Magnum settings, I'd show up at an anchorage with 70% SoC. That's not workable. I think it was TT who observed that because a boat is underway for a finite amount of time compared to charging at dock, makes sense to bump-up the Float setting (Balmar uses Absorb for this stage).

I make no promises that my settings would work for anyone else. But I hope having a real example would allow a reasonably bright person to have a decent starting point and make adjustments that work for them.

Peter

 

[Don L]

I get around that by cycling my engine key off and then back on. That puts the regulator back into startup mode and it will run at full till it does 14.1V for 12 minutes.

But I also have my regulator float set to 13.4 and if I were to forget would still be in the 90s% SOC

 

[SteveK]

I get around that by cycling my engine key off and then back on. That puts the regulator back into startup mode and it will run at full till it does 14.1V for 12 minutes.

But I also have my regulator float set to 13.4 and if I were to forget would still be in the 90s% SOC

Magna needs more than 2 minutes to go back to restart bulk. Then again you are talking about restarting engine?

 

[Don L]

Magna needs more than 2 minutes to go back to restart bulk. Then again you are talking about restarting engine?

No just turning off engine key that also turns off regulator for alternator. Engine still runs on my boat.

But if you have to turn something off for 2 minutes so be it.

 

[rslifkin]

No just turning off engine key that also turns off regulator for alternator. Engine still runs on my boat.

But if you have to turn something off for 2 minutes so be it.

Being able to turn the key off without shutting the engine down is common on the older sailboat Yanmars and some other older diesels that didn't have an electronic stop solenoid. But I expect the majority of engines on this site shut down when the key is turned off.

 

[twistedtree]

I have a magnasine 2000 with ME-RC REMOTE. It has a LFP battery type choice as well as custom and cc/cv. absorb 14.4, float 13.6. absorb 14.4 is what my battery OEM calls for, did not notice other LFP calling for less until now. Absorb time is chosen based on bank Ah size. Float is controlled by LFP is what screen displays. volts stay 13.5 and current sits at 0 unless there is a load. With my BMS monitor I can see 0 amps to battery and load amps sent by charger.
The only head scratcher I have is that my bats are 100% SOC all the time.

You could try lowering the float by 0.1V to see what happens. I have found it takes a little bit of tinkering to get whatever you are looking for.