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Old 01-20-2021, 06:41 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
Markel may have you grandfathered in (ref self surveys), but rest assured that any vessel over 26’ and 10 years of age will require a professional hauled survey for hull & machinery coverage.

The difference between FAA and marine are many- one of the biggest is that there is no federal standard for seaworthiness enforced by a governmental agency. ABYC, NAMS, SAMS- all promulgate standards, but they are voluntary standards.

In all my years of insuring boats, one of the things I despise the most is the self survey- because is can never be the dispassionate, ho ear assessment of the vessel’s material condition. The owner has a vested fiscal and emotional interest in the vessel, and the self survey is too often just a rubber stamp- and, too often, the owner doesn’t have the requisite skills to properly assess the boat.
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:49 AM   #342
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The difference between FAA and marine are many- one of the biggest is that there is no federal standard for seaworthiness enforced by a governmental agency. ABYC, NAMS, SAMS- all promulgate standards, but they are voluntary standards.

In all my years of insuring boats, one of the things I despise the most is the self survey- because is can never be the dispassionate, ho ear assessment of the vessel’s material condition. The owner has a vested fiscal and emotional interest in the vessel, and the self survey is too often just a rubber stamp- and, too often, the owner doesn’t have the requisite skills to properly assess the boat.
Yes, Coast Guard regulation of recreational boat design and continued seaworthiness of the vehicles is very limited....on purpose. The safety data do not support more rigorous involvement. If the insurance industry sees a safety problem, they have a duty to ask for additional rulemaking and oversight. Keep in mind that rulemaking is a public process...

I'm completely passionate about my boat's material condition. If I lie about items in the survey, I'll not be covered if a related loss occurs. Then I will be cancelled. Marine insurers need to be a lot more customer focused.
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:56 AM   #343
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This vessel was manufactured prior to enactment of some of the USCG 33CFR requirements and NFPA and ABYC standards and recommendations in effect today. This survey addresses those items thought to be necessary for safety but does not suggest complete compliance with current regulations or standards and recommendations.
INTENDED USE: recreational

Pulled this off the web as an example of another accredited surveyors report which he apparently uses as standard language. Believe inclusion of such language would address some posters concerns but still allow the surveyor to do an honest job to the best of his abilities and satisfy insurance vendors.
I believe the language says the surveyor will use whatever he chooses from any source to support his findings. Scares the hell out of me....
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:57 AM   #344
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One problem with safety based correction is often the root cause is improperly identified or the "easy" versus the proper solution is implemented/regulated.
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:06 AM   #345
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I believe the language says the surveyor will use whatever he chooses from any source to support his findings. Scares the hell out of me....

Keep in mind, you're basically paying a surveyor for his assessment of the condition of your boat. There's nothing that dictates what standards they can and can't use (beyond the legally required ones) to make that assessment. A surveyor can't be expected to look at any possible system (especially ones with pretty minimal legal requirements) and determine it's safe without some additional guidance. If you wanted perfect assessments, discretion, etc. with no risk of recommending changes to something that's different from standard but perfectly safe, a survey would take a very long time and cost a ton of money.

How the reports are written combined with how insurance companies interpret them (and form requirements from them) is where the problems can start.

In my mind, recommendations should be broken down a bit more than they typically are. Maybe a few categories like:
  1. System is fine as-is (either meets standard, or is equivalent, or is not standard, but still adequate and would be unreasonable to update to standard)
  2. System is fine for use, but if making changes at some point, consider X updates based on Y standard
  3. System has X safety concern based on Y standard, Z changes recommended
  4. System is unsuitable or unsafe, consider Y standard as a basis for correction
Things that fall into that first or second category shouldn't drive any forced updates to systems. I have a feeling that some complaints come from things like category 2 being mentioned (where a system isn't quite standard, but isn't unsafe or unsuitable) and then an insurance company forces changes based on that remark.
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Old 01-20-2021, 12:07 PM   #346
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Yes, Coast Guard regulation of recreational boat design and continued seaworthiness of the vehicles is very limited....on purpose. The safety data do not support more rigorous involvement. If the insurance industry sees a safety problem, they have a duty to ask for additional rulemaking and oversight. Keep in mind that rulemaking is a public process...

I'm completely passionate about my boat's material condition. If I lie about items in the survey, I'll not be covered if a related loss occurs. Then I will be cancelled. Marine insurers need to be a lot more customer focused.
That is your opinion, which I disagree with. I think that you are connecting your experience in the FAA arena to rec marine- similarities abound, but not as many as you are trying to connect.

Lose motive power or structural integrity in a plane, and the likelihood of death is very real in a high percentage of situations. Lose power or structural integrity in a boat, and the worst outcome is loss of life, but more often loss of property.

I'm not disagreeing that some surveyors are questionable, but the vast majority are doing the job to the best of their ability. The comments I read about the disagreements the vessel owner has with the surveyor usually fall squarely into the category of "emotional connection"- the owner has an emotional connection with the vessel and is offended when a surveyor points out deficiencies the vessel has.

That constitutes an attack on the vessel, and is usually met with argument and intolerance of the surveyor. That is the reason I hate self surveys- I have mine done every 5 years or so, and am not brilliant or arrogant enough to think that I can do a better job that the professional I trust.
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Old 01-26-2021, 08:41 PM   #347
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Wow! Just read 346 posts.

You all hate live-a-aboards: Why? LOL
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Old 01-26-2021, 08:47 PM   #348
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Wow! Just read 346 posts.

You all hate live-a-aboards: Why? LOL
Must be a dull day. I love our marina liveaboards, they give my boat security, they notice any lines issues etc, they`re a big plus for the marina.
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Old 01-26-2021, 09:13 PM   #349
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Must be a dull day. I love our marina liveaboards, they give my boat security, they notice any lines issues etc, they`re a big plus for the marina.
Putting together a marine community is both a challenge and a profound achievement - never mind by whom - usually just experienced en passant.
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