When Will Boat Prices Drop?

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Hopefully we can all agree that if you have fixed low rate and rates are rising, the benefit of paying off that loan becomes less attractive. For some though, it's an emotional decision and they are happy knowing they have zero debt whether that makes sense financially or not.

I am always happy to reduce leverage and have had none on my personal properties for some time, with modest leverage on business assets. I recently sold a business property and thought long and hard about paying off the mortgage on another business property with the proceeds when it dawned on my that I could invest the proceeds in CDs at a current rate of 4.65% (1 year CD) which for sure beats paying off my 3.25% mortgage! If CD rates drop in the future which I anticipate I may revisit this decision.
~A
 
OK I stand corrected. I wasn't sure and it doesn't feel right, but the numbers don't lie. Thanks, I'm always happy to learn something here and I usually do. Hopefully we can all agree that if you have fixed low rate and rates are rising, the benefit of paying off that loan becomes less attractive. For some though, it's an emotional decision and they are happy knowing they have zero debt whether that makes sense financially or not.

I hate debt. Even debt that bought me a cash producing asset. Yet, it can be difficult to payoff a small balance like $50,000 at 3% when you could be putting that money into a REIT that pays a 5% dividend. Of course this means more risk.

There is no one answer here for everyone.
 
Most of the younger kids also don't like the idea of pumping the carbon of two big diesels or big block gassers into the environment.

I bet the amount of carbon from boats is far less than you would think. They still use lead in piston aircraft. Some people are up in arms about all this lead screwing up the environment. Well, I just found out the stats on that. All the piston aircraft in the US use just 3 hours worth of fuel compared to what autos use in a year Yes, lead is not good, but this amount is insignificant compared to car pollution. Now boats, due the higher numbers, use more fuel than aircraft, but I'll bet it is still insignificant compared to the total amount of fuel burned by cars. Most big boats spend 90% or more of their time at anchor or in a berth. I know someone has the stats on boat fuel burned compared to auto gas. I do agree that youth is not interested in big slow boats. Big boats come into play more around 40ish or so. The cruisers of the 60-80s were 26-30ft Chris's, Owens etc. Now those are gone and everyone has 36-50fters or wakeboard boats. Times change.
 
I hate debt. Even debt that bought me a cash producing asset. Yet, it can be difficult to payoff a small balance like $50,000 at 3% when you could be putting that money into a REIT that pays a 5% dividend. Of course this means more risk.

There is no one answer here for everyone.

True, although you can now get bank CDs that are paying close to 5% with no real risk.
 
Price drops are starting. The last two years there has been very little Trawler inventory and prices were nuts. Today I looked at Curtis Stokes and the number boats for sale looks more in line with 6 or 7 years ago.
 
The ‘working from home’ seemed like a good idea until it was discovered the bosses were the boss of a lot of empty desks. Now the bosses are beginning to demand the underlings physically show up at work.
I think some folks were also writing off “part” of their houses etc.
 
As someone who works from home I have a couple thoughts.

You can be just as productive or maybe even more productive at home. I can check email and do work at any time. I'm not working nonstop like 9 to 5, but even if I was in an office I wouldn't. People in an office are still doing personal stuff during business hours. Rather than commuting about 45 mins each way, I am often working instead. As soon as I wake up, I make coffee and start checking emails. No need to immediately shower, shave, and dress for work and then drive. So potentially better use of time. However the downside is summed up in this unknown quote: "If you work from home, you are always at work". As a benefit to the company, they can downsize on office space, utilities, and all the overhead that comes with providing permanent offices. Instead, my company has a number of shared office spaces for those that occasionally go into work.

BUT.... long term I don't think remote employees are good for the company or the worker. You lose in-person interactions and collaborations. The spontaneous things you see and talk about informally cannot be replaced by zoom meetings. I also think it decreases your chances for advancement. It works well for me since I will retire soon, but I don't think it's a good model for the majority of the workforce.
 
The ‘working from home’ seemed like a good idea until it was discovered the bosses were the boss of a lot of empty desks. Now the bosses are beginning to demand the underlings physically show up at work.
I think some folks were also writing off “part” of their houses etc.

I'm retired so have no dog in this hunt. I've seen many opinions that 'working from home' is just as if not more productive than being in the office. I personally don't know about that...

My sister in law has been 'working from home' since the start of the pandemic. On a busy week she might put in maybe 15 hours of real work. Most of the time, far less. But then she has a state job from which it's impossible to ever get fired.

It's human nature. Being home has both lots of fun distractions from working, as well as the temptation to let things slide.
 
BUT.... long term I don't think remote employees are good for the company or the worker. You lose in-person interactions and collaborations. The spontaneous things you see and talk about informally cannot be replaced by zoom meetings. I also think it decreases your chances for advancement. It works well for me since I will retire soon, but I don't think it's a good model for the majority of the workforce.


I think it depends a lot on the job function too. Our company has brought some departments at least partially back to the office, but others have been left up to the individual.

I haven't actually sat at my desk in the office in almost 3 years (although I have one), I just go in occasionally when there's a meeting or something worth being there for, or to have lunch and catch up with people in other departments. Other than that, I work from home (or the boat during the summer).

We deal enough with people in different physical locations that we were already pretty used to having most interactions via IM or Teams calls, so not being able to walk over to someone's desk hasn't been much of a loss. But for some other groups, they either need to touch stuff in the office, or their work makes in person collaboration useful and they end up spending more time in the office.
 
I'm retired so have no dog in this hunt. I've seen many opinions that 'working from home' is just as if not more productive than being in the office. I personally don't know about that...

I think if you can get by working 15-20 hours from home you were also doing that in the office, but it's just not as obvious. If I have some free time during the day, I might mow the lawn or do some home repair or clean the boat. If I had to go into work, I'd be in an office for 8 hours, but if I had free time, I'd be looking at stuff on the internet. The amount of work I have to do doesn't change based on where I am. Also having a home office, I am more likely to do work when required outside of normal business hours.
 
Working from home …… before you stand up, look down to see if you put on underwear.

I too am retired so I really dont care. SMILE
 
Greetings,
Re: Post #281...


iu
 
This discussion took hard turn. [emoji848]
 
IF a company accepts the working from home concept, they down size their physical office space, do you think or expect the company to share dollars with you, the employees? Sort of doubt it.
 
IF a company accepts the working from home concept, they down size their physical office space, do you think or expect the company to share dollars with you, the employees? Sort of doubt it.

Of course not. But the employee also benefits by not having to commute to work and the expenses that go with that. If the company saves money they could be more profitable which in turn is good for employees and shareholders.
 
A lot of folks are being priced out. Not for small boats used on weekends or holidays nor for multimillion babies. But rather for the middle of the market. Although here people focus on fuel but for dollars spent believe cost of techs, wrenches and consumables has a greater impact. Add in escalating costs for berthing, insurance and storage costs for having a boat have greatly risen. Those costs are nearly the same regardless of purchase price as some costs are fixed by LOA and a tech costs the same per hour regardless of what he’s working on.
Net worth has fallen given past market performance so people in this group sense of disposable income has as well. Add in current concerns about fed debt limit and recession think people will want to decrease their exposure. Some will be more motivated to sell their boats now getting out while the going is good. That creates downward pressure.Some will wait if prices decline sharply. Wanting to have less of a difference between purchase and residual value decreasing supply. But over the next year expect enough people will be underwater with their boats or can’t justify carrying costs that prices will decline. Like with cars this will be tempered by the exorbitant price of new boats. So think used won’t fall that much unless the fed defaults or a full blown recession occurs.
 
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Another thread was posted today on the AGLCA stats for 2022 -- record number finished in '22. Of course the numbers are still very small (227, compared to the previous high of 192 in '19) so you'd have to be careful about generalizing anything. Could be a lot of things. More Boomers retiring, COVID aftermath -- life is short, go for it kind of reaction. Increased working from home (or the boat) post COVID which grants more freedom. Still, to me the number of Loopers who actually finished is an indirect indicator of how many more are out there now, Loopers or otherwise. The fact that it went up at all (18% 2019 to 2022), even in a year of shocking inflation and skyrocketing fuel prices and rising interest rates and declining investment returns -- makes me think boating and boat prices are still pretty solid, for now. I'm still not sure how long that will last, but then I don't know where all the labor market employees went and how they buy groceries now either.
 
A lot of folks are being priced out. Not for small boats used on weekends or holidays nor for multimillion babies. But rather for the middle of the market. Although here people focus on fuel but for dollars spent believe cost of techs, wrenches and consumables has a greater impact. Add in escalating costs for berthing, insurance and storage costs for having a boat have greatly risen. Those costs are nearly the same regardless of purchase price as some costs are fixed by LOA and a tech costs the same per hour regardless of what he’s working on.
Net worth has fallen given past market performance so people in this group sense of disposable income has as well. Add in current concerns about fed debt limit and recession think people will want to decrease their exposure. Some will be more motivated to sell their boats now getting out while the going is good. That creates downward pressure.Some will wait if prices decline sharply. Wanting to have less of a difference between purchase and residual value decreasing supply. But over the next year expect enough people will be underwater with their boats or can’t justify carrying costs that prices will decline. Like with cars this will be tempered by the exorbitant price of new boats. So think used won’t fall that much unless the fed defaults or a full blown recession occurs.

FWIW, I agree with you Hippocampus.

Predicting the future is fun, because it's usually a wide-open blue-sky exercise. It's also one where most forecasts tend to be wrong. Reality has a nasty habit of coming up with unexpected surprises (see: COVID pandemic).

Whatever happens in the near/intermediate term with boat prices, barring a catastrophic and dramatic worldwide recession/depression, I think the impacts on the boat market will be lumpy, and perhaps regional.

Invariably, some sellers will be resistant to changing conditions, and will hang on to pricing out of step with what buyers are willing to pay. It's human nature to think that once prices have reached a certain level, that's where they belong and should 'get back up there' soon (see: the stock market).

Prices tend to decline in an oscillating stair-step pattern. Once buyers and sellers have acclimated to a price of '10', a price of '8' seems like a bargain and tends to get bid up to '9'. They'll decline to '7', again be seen as a relative bargain and bid up to '8', and so on.

I think there will also be further distinctions in pricing depending on condition. In the past couple of years it seemed like anything that floated (and some things that didn't...) would sell instantly for insane prices, reflecting the gotta-have-it frenzy of buyers. I suspect going forward boats in prime condition will (as always) command the best prices and sell the fastest, but the refugees from a scrap yard will sit longer, and if they ultimately move, for less money.

I agree with Hippocampus, I think the 7-8-9 figure megayacht market is in it's own universe and largely immune from economic forces that affect most people, and inexpensive toys (credit card money things) likewise less susceptible. But the 'middle' is where all the action, and changes, will happen.

Those are my 'predictions', guaranteed to be wrong.
 
Another thread was posted today on the AGLCA stats for 2022 -- record number finished in '22. Of course the numbers are still very small (227, compared to the previous high of 192 in '19) so you'd have to be careful about generalizing anything. Could be a lot of things. More Boomers retiring, COVID aftermath -- life is short, go for it kind of reaction. Increased working from home (or the boat) post COVID which grants more freedom. Still, to me the number of Loopers who actually finished is an indirect indicator of how many more are out there now, Loopers or otherwise. The fact that it went up at all (18% 2019 to 2022), even in a year of shocking inflation and skyrocketing fuel prices and rising interest rates and declining investment returns -- makes me think boating and boat prices are still pretty solid, for now. I'm still not sure how long that will last, but then I don't know where all the labor market employees went and how they buy groceries now either.
Or, maybe we have seen the peak. My theory is folks are now coming to realize just how big that hole in the water is that they are throwing their money into.
 
Or, maybe we have seen the peak. My theory is folks are now coming to realize just how big that hole in the water is that they are throwing their money into.

That certainly could be, although I'll bet most Loopers -- completed Loopers -- aren't brand new to boating and do have a sense of how boats are a money hemorrhage. Some might buy a boat and cast off tomorrow, but I'll bet most don't do it that way. I do wonder how on earth somebody apparently did the Loop on a jetski, but that's another topic.

In the past few years we had at least two prominent local people take off to do the Loop -- one a retired radio announcer and former mayor, and the other a prominent local attorney and her husband. Actually the attorney was going to do the "Big U" and bought a boat in California. The mayor/radio announcer finished, the attorney eventually sold the boat and moved back home, but at least they gave it shot. If I can think of those two from my tiny-population, landlocked state, and my marina in the middle of corn country still has a waiting list, and a pile of other indicators I notice, I don't think cruising has peaked, but who knows. It's sure an odd economic time.
 
Or, maybe we have seen the peak. My theory is folks are now coming to realize just how big that hole in the water is that they are throwing their money into.

My kids were born into the boating lifestyle. Since being tiny infants, we would take them boating ,to the beach, fishing,etc. The all absolutely loved it. Fast forward to today. My daughter is mostly a homemaker living 3 hours away married & raising my first grandson. My sons both have careers and both make more money than I ever dreamed of. They love to come back home and go for a ride on the boat when they have time. Our middle son was really interested to see what cruising was about & was tentatively going to make part of the trip South with us this year until the weather messed up our schedule and we couldn't make it.
My point is, when I was their age, my interest was centered around boating and couldn't get enough of it. When I wasn't working I was out on one of whichever boats I owned at the time. While all 3 kids still love boating, neither has, not once, mentioned buying a boat of any sort. Not a kayak, canoe or trailerable boat, much less a larger boat.
A sign of the times? Maybe so. I'll admit, they are smarter than me.
 
Loopers:

The Loop has certainly ignited interest with many who have little or no experience in boating. That isn't bad for boating. But if you wander into the Facebook groups, almost weekly there is some thread where a newbie wants to know if and where he can get a 50 footer in perfect condition needing no work for several tens of thousands to do the loop. Or on a budget number that barely covers the fuel bill. But its just a sign of boating interest.

Prices:

I get sales email from a PNW broker. Lately its a steady stream informing me of price cuts on the listings. It appears sellers want to sell and are less interested in sitting on it.

New build costs. Labor prices are up. Scarcity premiums on parts seems to have unwound. Crude oil is well off its highs. Ocean shipping rates are off the highs. It sort of feels like overall the hike in build cost is flattened or maybe a tad off the highs but not by much. Any builders who hiked price to fatten profit margins during the boom period might have room to ease back selling prices, but not by much. The $US is well of its highs, so a $US denominated sale on something built overseas is pressured since the dollar won't buy as much. So there are cross currents pushing both ways.
 
Honestly I don't think the boat itself has much bearing on the the market. The very same boat that sold for $50,000 a few years ago now lists for $35,000.

I know groceries, gasoline, and all household expenses are up, but I really don't think those items effect boat prices.

I think it is a much closer relationship. When I make boating plans for the weekend or longer, I really don't consider the price of eggs in my plan. I really do consider the price of transient dockage, tips, maybe a new dock line or a new chart, paint and boating related supplies.

When I am on my boat I think "boating". When my boat gets to expensive to own and maintain I'll think of selling it.

Am I making any sense?

pete
 
My point is, when I was their age, my interest was centered around boating and couldn't get enough of it. When I wasn't working I was out on one of whichever boats I owned at the time. While all 3 kids still love boating, neither has, not once, mentioned buying a boat of any sort. Not a kayak, canoe or trailerable boat, much less a larger boat.
A sign of the times? Maybe so. I'll admit, they are smarter than me.

This is a great point.
Here's one from the other perspective.
I just turned 60. My entire life has been centered around airplanes. Airplanes. Airplanes. Airplanes.
My wife and I have long talked about traveling in RV for years. It took the death of a good friend for us to wake up and smell the coffee and realize life is too short. After Jeff passed away, we purchased a travel trailer and began touring all of United States and Canada with many many enjoyable trips over the years.

Boating? While I have owned a small sailboat, and 20-footer size power boats over the years, they were just for the odd day trip. I never imagined I would ever become a trawler owner living on the water in the summer. Well that changed in the fall of 2021 when we purchased our 36' trawler. Intention was to transfer our nomadic travel trailer lifestyle to boating.
Now that its been a full year since we aquired our trawler, I must admit, living on the water in the summer has been one of the most fulfilling summers of my life. My wife and I are totally into the Marine lifestyle, and now, all I do is think, live and breathe boating. Imagine that? I never thought I'd become such a boating nut.

So i guess the reverse is true.

Oh, and by the way, my kids grew up around airplanes and I always hoped they would have the same passion as me. Well, they're now all grown up and moved away, and not one of them could care less about airplanes. Full circle. ;) ;)
 
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