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Old 05-16-2018, 06:56 AM   #61
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A crooked LEO might get away with that once, or maybe even twice, but remember there are other LEO's on the boat with him and they're not likely to stand up in court and swear that what the crooked one is saying is the truth.

None of the cops I worked with would have lied in court to save the arse of an officer who they knew was lying. They only have one integrity and it wasn't for sale to protect some bozo cop. The misdemeanor ticket he wrote is just not worth it.


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Did you read that in a comic book? Totally not true.
Nope Just from SCOTUS:

The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 on Tuesday that the Constitution forbids police from holding a suspect without probable cause, even for fewer than 10 extra minutes.

Writing on behalf of the court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg declared that the constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure prevent police from extending an otherwise completed traffic stop to allow for a drug-sniffing dog to arrive.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:29 AM   #62
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People blame the police, for enforcing laws that should have never passed any type of serious constitutional debate in the first place.

The blame is with our court system, where it has become cheaper to plead gulity, and pay a fine for something you didn't do, or that constitutes, or is the result of, an improper action by the state, than to fight it through the court system, and win.
This is well stated and I wanted to add to it. I've worked as a police officer for 20 years. My last 4 years I have worked in our special operations unit, mostly with fugitive operations and large scale event security planning. However our marine unit falls under the special operations umbrella (our county is located on the shores of Lake Ontario) so I've had the opportunity to work on our boats a few times as an overtime fill in. I am in no way marine law enforcement expert but I've seen it done up close.

I get it, there are cops who are dicks, they enjoy yelling at people and asserting their authority. They are by far the minority. Most cops just want to go along to get along. When people are polite, they are polite right back. But if someone chooses a different path, trust me, it will be met with the full fury of the law. It's simple human nature.

I assure you that if I follow you in your car or boat for long enough I'll find a violation. The law book on my desk of penal and vehicle and traffic law is over 1000 pages. Hell, you'll find violations on my car or when I'm driving. Sometimes you get stopped, sometimes you don't. We can't catch everyone and when it's you, unfortunately you caught a bad break. That doesn't change the fact that you were in violation. Ticketing you does not absolve all the others who got away with the same thing. Like I said, we can't catch everyone, every time.

I don't know the specifics of this case but trust me, there is more to it. Now personally I agree with a lot of people who are asserting their constitutional rights regarding live aboards or the meat and potatoes of warrantless searches. Unfortunately, as stated above, we merely enforce the laws, good or bad. If you want to be angry contact your legislator. We merely use the laws we are told to work with to complete our mission.

Many people purport to know the law. This is a dangerous game. The real estate lawyer who thinks he knows search and seizure inside and out has a good chance of losing against a street cop who uses it everyday. Conversely, the street cop arguing the finer points of lot lines with a real estate attorney is probably going to be wrong.

It's already been stated here with someone inferring that police need a search warrant to search your car. I don't know the laws in every state, but here in NY we have something called the automobile exception. If we suspect criminality we can conduct a limited search of a vehicle without consent and without a warrant. You can not like it, maybe I don't like it as a civilian, but it is fact the law. Now we can have a conversation about what criminality is and how I articulate my suspicions but it is the law none the less. In the moment the police are going to win.

Sometimes I use a specific analogy when people, just like on trawler forum, are complaining about the yahoo's operating boats out on the water and what a menace and threat they are. They want the cops to do something but they don't want it to impact them. So the analogy being when people in a neighborhood are complaining about the damn cars speeding up and down the road. They demand the police do something so we start flooding the area with traffic cops. The cops pull over cars, and I've literally had this said to me when I explained why I was out there stopping cars, "well yeah but don't stop me, I live here, it's everyone else!"

No doubt about it, police get it wrong sometimes. They are human, they may be having a bad day just like you do sometimes. They may have only seen a piece of something and not the totality, but law enforcement is based on perception. Perception is reality to the observer. The courts determine facts.

You have to understand that it is not personal. You may feel like your being treated like a "criminal" and nothing could be further from the truth. The cop does not know you, the cop has fought and been hurt by people who look, act and dress just like you. There is no criminal "type". The bad guys don't wear stripped jumpers and masks carrying a sack with dollar signs on them. The cop does not know you and does not know your intentions. They always assume the worst because that is the safest way to police. They operate on procedures that give them the best chance for everyone to remain safe and unhurt. Sometimes those procedures can be a bit offensive to the law abiding person. Again it's not personal, Do your best to understand their perspective. Stand where they want you to stand, be calm, follow instructions.

Just be careful of your belief that you "know your rights" because you heard something from a guy at the dock or in the bar. There are many that resent authority or the fact that limits are placed on their behavior. I'll never win those people over. However, a rational person knows that there are rules we must all live by. There is a time and a place to argue and that is not in the moment you are interacting with the cop. You can request a supervisor after its over, you can address it in court if not resolved with the supervisor.

Be calm, be polite, be respectful and watch how easy your interactions with law enforcement go. Even if the cop got it wrong, and you're frustrated. Cooperation goes along way to bringing any situation to an agreeable end to all parties involved.

my 2 cents.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:09 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by scott2640 View Post
This is well stated and I wanted to add to it. I've worked as a police officer for 20 years. My last 4 years I have worked in our special operations unit, mostly with fugitive operations and large scale event security planning. However our marine unit falls under the special operations umbrella (our county is located on the shores of Lake Ontario) so I've had the opportunity to work on our boats a few times as an overtime fill in. I am in no way marine law enforcement expert but I've seen it done up close.

I get it, there are cops who are dicks, they enjoy yelling at people and asserting their authority. They are by far the minority. Most cops just want to go along to get along. When people are polite, they are polite right back. But if someone chooses a different path, trust me, it will be met with the full fury of the law. It's simple human nature.

I assure you that if I follow you in your car or boat for long enough I'll find a violation. The law book on my desk of penal and vehicle and traffic law is over 1000 pages. Hell, you'll find violations on my car or when I'm driving. Sometimes you get stopped, sometimes you don't. We can't catch everyone and when it's you, unfortunately you caught a bad break. That doesn't change the fact that you were in violation. Ticketing you does not absolve all the others who got away with the same thing. Like I said, we can't catch everyone, every time.

I don't know the specifics of this case but trust me, there is more to it. Now personally I agree with a lot of people who are asserting their constitutional rights regarding live aboards or the meat and potatoes of warrantless searches. Unfortunately, as stated above, we merely enforce the laws, good or bad. If you want to be angry contact your legislator. We merely use the laws we are told to work with to complete our mission.

Many people purport to know the law. This is a dangerous game. The real estate lawyer who thinks he knows search and seizure inside and out has a good chance of losing against a street cop who uses it everyday. Conversely, the street cop arguing the finer points of lot lines with a real estate attorney is probably going to be wrong.

It's already been stated here with someone inferring that police need a search warrant to search your car. I don't know the laws in every state, but here in NY we have something called the automobile exception. If we suspect criminality we can conduct a limited search of a vehicle without consent and without a warrant. You can not like it, maybe I don't like it as a civilian, but it is fact the law. Now we can have a conversation about what criminality is and how I articulate my suspicions but it is the law none the less. In the moment the police are going to win.

Sometimes I use a specific analogy when people, just like on trawler forum, are complaining about the yahoo's operating boats out on the water and what a menace and threat they are. They want the cops to do something but they don't want it to impact them. So the analogy being when people in a neighborhood are complaining about the damn cars speeding up and down the road. They demand the police do something so we start flooding the area with traffic cops. The cops pull over cars, and I've literally had this said to me when I explained why I was out there stopping cars, "well yeah but don't stop me, I live here, it's everyone else!"

No doubt about it, police get it wrong sometimes. They are human, they may be having a bad day just like you do sometimes. They may have only seen a piece of something and not the totality, but law enforcement is based on perception. Perception is reality to the observer. The courts determine facts.

You have to understand that it is not personal. You may feel like your being treated like a "criminal" and nothing could be further from the truth. The cop does not know you, the cop has fought and been hurt by people who look, act and dress just like you. There is no criminal "type". The bad guys don't wear stripped jumpers and masks carrying a sack with dollar signs on them. The cop does not know you and does not know your intentions. They always assume the worst because that is the safest way to police. They operate on procedures that give them the best chance for everyone to remain safe and unhurt. Sometimes those procedures can be a bit offensive to the law abiding person. Again it's not personal, Do your best to understand their perspective. Stand where they want you to stand, be calm, follow instructions.

Just be careful of your belief that you "know your rights" because you heard something from a guy at the dock or in the bar. There are many that resent authority or the fact that limits are placed on their behavior. I'll never win those people over. However, a rational person knows that there are rules we must all live by. There is a time and a place to argue and that is not in the moment you are interacting with the cop. You can request a supervisor after its over, you can address it in court if not resolved with the supervisor.

Be calm, be polite, be respectful and watch how easy your interactions with law enforcement go. Even if the cop got it wrong, and you're frustrated. Cooperation goes along way to bringing any situation to an agreeable end to all parties involved.

my 2 cents.
That is a stellar post, thank you.

I've found the easiest way to avoid getting a ticket the few times I've been stopped (heavy right foot) is to simply acknowledge my culpability (because I know I am culpable) and be cooperative. Cops generally appreciate it when you don't make their job easier and reciprocate. Simple.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:42 AM   #64
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I mostly worked on the prosecution side of things, but during my extremely short career as a criminal defense attorney, I was assigned to assist a public defender on a murder case where the defendant had been held without bail for eighteen months while the public defender and prosecutor negotiated over an appropriate sentence.

After reading the file for a few days, and seeing nothing in it that made me even slightly think the defendant was guilty (and, who had steadfastly maintained that he was not anywhere around the scene of the murder, but rather was thirty miles away with an alibi of a very neutral party), I convinced the defendant to go to trial.

The prosecutor continued to tell us what a huge mistake we were making. Right up until the point the jury we had selected was seated and he was about to call his first witness. At that point, the prosecutor asked for a conference with the judge, in which he informed everyone that he wished to drop all the charges.

That anecdote about how great I am aside, our criminal justice system, while still one of the best in the world on paper, is at this point in our actual usage, completely overwhelmed, and broken operationally. People blame the police, for enforcing laws that should have never passed any type of serious constitutional debate in the first place.

The blame is with our court system, where it has become cheaper to plead gulity, and pay a fine for something you didn't do, or that constitutes, or is the result of, an improper action by the state, than to fight it through the court system, and win.

It hasn't always been that way. The case law books of prior court opinions are filled with incidents of normal people fighting improper government overreach and winning in years past. Not any more. It simply costs too much today and that check and balance is pretty much gone.

Look at the anchoring rights case in Marco Island as a good example of accused citizen empowerment through challenge and appeal, that used to happen a lot, but rarely does now.
That really tweaks me. The prosecutor really made a hash out of his job and apparently there were no repercussions???

If I lived in that county I would want to know about such things as that would have a major effect on how I voted.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:43 AM   #65
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This is the second time I have seen reference to anchoring rights in and around Marc Island.
Perhaps you will explain the problem to me/us??
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:46 AM   #66
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Nope Just from SCOTUS:

The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 on Tuesday that the Constitution forbids police from holding a suspect without probable cause, even for fewer than 10 extra minutes.

Writing on behalf of the court, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg declared that the constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure prevent police from extending an otherwise completed traffic stop to allow for a drug-sniffing dog to arrive.

What was the case/court number?
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:57 AM   #67
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Scott 2640 that was a great post.

But I have a question. When a cop gets it wrong and causes the defendant to spend lots of money on an attorney to protect himself and his family, is this right?

The state can say "Well the cop just got it wrong" and now the defendant is bankrupt as there is no refund in lawyer fees in this cop/lawyer/court corruption.....
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:59 AM   #68
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The article is here Supreme Court rules that cop can't hold you for even a few extra minutes after routine traffic stops - Business Insider but does not reference a case number.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:12 AM   #69
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This is the second time I have seen reference to anchoring rights in and around Marc Island.
Perhaps you will explain the problem to me/us??
A few years ago, Marco Island passed some very restrictive anchoring laws. Most people who got tickets for violating it, just paid their fine and moved on. One boater didn't, and took his case all the way to the FL Supreme Court and won, and the law was thrown out.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:16 AM   #70
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What was the case/court number?
If my memory is correct it was
RODRIGUEZ v. UNITED STATES
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE EIGHTH CIRCUIT
No. 13–9972. Argued January 21, 2015—Decided April 21, 2015

By the way I would always welcome the CG on my boat and if the Leo's say they are coming on board also, I will just ask them to not eat all of my cookies Kim cooks for me
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:47 AM   #71
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I think it boils down to this: Since this country's founding, the USCG has had authority to board any vessel at any time. This was for customs and import duty enforcement. As in "revenue cutters". The courts have upheld this through numerous challenges as protection against smuggling is one of the CG's primary duties, and ships can come from anywhere carrying anything.

What is less clear is whether state and local law enforcement agencies have the same latitude. In automobiles, searches can only be made by consent, probable cause, or by warrant.

It will be interesting to watch this as it progresses through the courts. I doubt anything will change regarding the broad authority given to the USCG. But it is a bit of a stretch that the same exception to the protections of the 4th given to the USCG for border and customs enforcement applies to a fishing skiff in a lake. For the purposes of checking life jackets?? Really??

We shall see...

Thats kinda how I see it as well.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:53 PM   #72
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I am glad the USCG is out there to save my butt from myself but also, to make a sincere effort at preventing drugs and illegals from entering the US.

I too welcome the USCG aboard my boat.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:25 PM   #73
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From DLP's post: "The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 on Tuesday that the Constitution forbids police from holding a suspect without probable cause, even for fewer than 10 extra minutes."


From the article about the SCOTUS decision:
"After police have completed a routine traffic stop, they cannot hold you for even a few extra minutes without the usual suspicion required to detain a person, the Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday. "


The key part of both those quotes is that the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed and if he doesn't detain the suspect to further investigate if there is a crime, the crime and the criminal is allowed to leave.


Reasonable suspicion does not rise to the level of probable cause, it's just a suspicion that a "reasonable man" would formulate based on the circumstances.


It can't simply be a fishing expedition and the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on.


Scott2640, great post. Well written and thorough. Thanks.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:22 PM   #74
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From DLP's post: "The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 on Tuesday that the Constitution forbids police from holding a suspect without probable cause, even for fewer than 10 extra minutes."


From the article about the SCOTUS decision:
"After police have completed a routine traffic stop, they cannot hold you for even a few extra minutes without the usual suspicion required to detain a person, the Supreme Court ruled on Tuesday. "


The key part of both those quotes is that the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed and if he doesn't detain the suspect to further investigate if there is a crime, the crime and the criminal is allowed to leave.


Reasonable suspicion does not rise to the level of probable cause, it's just a suspicion that a "reasonable man" would formulate based on the circumstances.


It can't simply be a fishing expedition and the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on.


Scott2640, great post. Well written and thorough. Thanks.
See I didn't get it from a comic book But then again you still might be right if you think SCOTUS comic book
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:48 PM   #75
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"It can't simply be a fishing expedition and the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on."

In Mass an RV was stopped because it had a political bumper sticker , from the NRA.

The vehicle wasstopped & searched , after a long wait and a disassembled weapon was found locked in a box in one of the under coach storage areas.

Cost many thousands to stay out of jail, and months of time.

"the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on."

I guess any NRA "free speech" is just cause for a search, in liberal PC Mass.
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:42 PM   #76
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In Mass an RV was stopped because it had a political bumper sticker , from the NRA.

Hm.... sounds like BS to me. Do you have a credible source for that story?
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:33 PM   #77
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....None of the cops I worked with would have lied in court to save the arse of an officer who they knew was lying......
I'm glad you worked with a group of honorable police men and women, and I'm sure the majority of people in that profession are well intentioned people with a sense of integrity. However, there are a number of people who are not so honorable. You can hardly open a newspaper these days without seeing a police corruption article. We just had to close down an entire troop of our Mass State Police because at least 30 officers were putting in for overtime for shifts they never worked. Another troop has refused to submit financial data to the state controller for 8 years even though they are legally required to do so. ..The Top 2 State Police officers retired a few months ago after making a trooper rewrite an arrest report because it involved the daughter of a judge....... This is just in the last few months in 1 state. Whethere there are a lot of dishonest cops or a few of them.....they are definitely out there
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:46 PM   #78
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Hm.... sounds like BS to me. Do you have a credible source for that story?
That's what we get on 95% of these is even when it's the person actually involved, half the story. As always there are three stories, Party A, Party B, and the truth. It's not necessarily anyone lying but often it's just different interpretations of what took place.

This could have been only because of the NRA sticker, but far more likely something else involved. Why were they stopped to start with? When the standard question of whether they had any drugs or weapons was asked, how did they answer? When asked if they minded if the officer checked, how did they answer?

Now, I'm not saying there are not LEO's with agendas. Watch Live PD one night and see the contrast in attitudes across the country. Marijuana possession is treated with disinterest in one jurisdiction and like one is a hardened criminal in another. I'm sure guns are treated the same. However, something starts the entire investigation and typically it gets extended by attitudes and body language and words. Watch closely how people react to officer's questions. "Do you have anything in your car (or on you) I should be aware of?" The two common questions. Yet, you can tell how they answer "no" that they do.

I love the "how much have you had to drink" followed by "nothing" when the officer clearly smelled the alcohol. Or "when is the last time you smoked marijuana in your car" followed by saying they don't smoke it when clearly the officer has already smelled it. Now, I do think there are officers who imagine or invent smelling it based on profiles. I'm not sure how you question what someone claims they smell. I saw a horrible case of harassment of a teenager about 20 years ago near the lake. I had heard early that morning they were raiding the high school. Everyone in town knew. So, only the stupid kids got caught. They were determined this one kid had some though so got a search warrant for his home and car. Small conservative rural town, easy to get warrant. They went to his home, his mom let them in, they found nothing. They pulled his car over. This I only saw because I was in the restaurant whose lot they pulled in. They even removed his seats from the car. Nothing. Now, they were then ready to drive off with his seats sitting in the lot. That's when several of us walked out and one man asked if they were through. They said yes, so meant we weren't interfering. They were told they would put his car back like they found it. As one of the men was a council member, they did so. The kid said he didn't sell, had used before, but this of all days he wasn't stupid enough to have any. I wondered what all the kids did with their drugs that day. I did talk to one girl who said her Siberian Husky brought a large bag home from the woods.

We read about these "somebody done me wrong" cases, but don't really know until it all comes out in court, and then, only if we read the entire transcript.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:08 PM   #79
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...Reasonable suspicion does not rise to the level of probable cause, it's just a suspicion that a "reasonable man" would formulate based on the circumstances.


It can't simply be a fishing expedition and the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on. .
Reminds me of the eminent but ever modest John Brownie QC (later Justice Brownie) seeking production of documents by Discovery: "No Your Honour, it`s not a fishing expedition, there are fish down there, we just can`t make them out clearly."
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:00 PM   #80
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"It can't simply be a fishing expedition and the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on."

In Mass an RV was stopped because it had a political bumper sticker , from the NRA.

The vehicle wasstopped & searched , after a long wait and a disassembled weapon was found locked in a box in one of the under coach storage areas.

Cost many thousands to stay out of jail, and months of time.

"the officer must be able to articulate what his suspicion was and what it was based on."

I guess any NRA "free speech" is just cause for a search, in liberal PC Mass.
I do not live nor ever have lived in Mass but is it illegal (state law) to carry a disassembled weapon in a vehicle storage compartment? Must make hunting difficult unless hunting is outlawed. What actually caught my attention was that the person was stopped for having an NRA bumper sticker. Did the police officer testify to that in court? Even in Mass I would think that would take a lot of cajones in a court of law.
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