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Old 02-20-2019, 02:35 AM   #21
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Good point on OLDER engines... probably can't even find what was recommended anymore...

Bob Smith recommended Shell Rotella 30W. Still available.

Jim
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:17 AM   #22
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I have a 14 year old Volvo TAMD41P-A 6 cyl. 200 HP turbo diesel engine in my Camano. The manual recommends 15W-40 diesel engine oil. The Synthetics I have seen on the market (Mobil 1, Shell's Rotella, etc.) for diesels seem to be mostly 5W-40. Are these lower cold pour synthetics compatible with older engines like mine? Does anyone know of authoritative articles on this subject?

It seems like using a synthetic with higher temperature tolerance, fewer contaminants than mineral oil, and better initial flow when starting up engines that experience longer time segments between use seem to make sense, while having the same high temperature viscosity as mineral oils. Seems like there should be some research literature out there, including recommendations from engine manufacturers. Goal, of course, is engine longevity, not searching for better mileage at the risk of higher engine wear. I welcome good research and recommendations from authoritative sources!

Thanks!
AMSOIL makes a 15W-40 diesel synthetic oil.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:32 AM   #23
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Bob Smith recommended Shell Rotella 30W. Still available.

Jim
It is well to remember that Ford Lehman engines were developed well before the widespread use of multi-grade oils. Using SAE 30 grade oil in a Lehman is fine. But, using it ignores the benefits of multi-grade oil, that is, far better cold start-up lubrication with equally good operating temp lube ability.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:55 AM   #24
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Bob Smith recommended Shell Rotella 30W. Still available.

Jim
The viscosity rating doesn't change it's the additive packages that have changed over time and hence the changes to the API service category. Many of the latest category/ additive changes especially in diesel "C" catagories have been driven by tightening emission standards and the addition of emission systems to OTR trucks... which don't apply to our marine applications.

The referenced / Linked Cox Eng article (post #13) actually claims that some of the latest API catagories can be detrimental for some marine diesel applications.

The personal opinion I have formed after digging and reading all I could find re marine diesel application is...
It is probably more important to choose the correct additive package / API category and viscosity for the expected marine environment than synthetic vs dino or single vs multi-vis oil.
IMO a synthetic oil with the wrong API catagory is no better than the correct dino oil and may in fact be detrimental for a marine application. But that is only my opinion and I know what that is and what its worth!?

Has ANYONE here on TF actually worn out a diesel engine using single wt dino oil in their diesel??
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:34 AM   #25
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The viscosity rating doesn't change it's the additive packages that have changed over time and hence the changes to the API service category. Many of the latest category/ additive changes especially in diesel "C" catagories have been driven by tightening emission standards and the addition of emission systems to OTR trucks... which don't apply to our marine applications.

The referenced / Linked Cox Eng article (post #13) actually claims that some of the latest API catagories can be detrimental for some marine diesel applications.

The personal opinion I have formed after digging and reading all I could find re marine diesel application is...
It is probably more important to choose the correct additive package / API category and viscosity for the expected marine environment than synthetic vs dino.
IMO a synthetic oil with the wrong API catagory is no better than the correct dino oil and may in fact be detrimental for a marine application. But that is only my opinion and I know what that is and what its worth!?
"The viscosity rating doesn't change it's the additive packages that have changed over time "

True. Base oils are the same as ever. It's the additives that make them multi-vis. I stand on my opinion that multi-vis oil, assuming it meets the diesel API standard, is better choice for any engine even those such as Lehmans despite the out-dated manual recommendation. Naysayers, think about this. Find me any manufacturer making diesel engines in the last 30 years or more that specs a straight grade oil if, in fact, it is a better choice.

"It is probably more important to choose the correct additive package / API category and viscosity for the expected marine environment than synthetic vs dino."

Agree 100%, well almost. Marine environment, by which I am assuming you mean ambient temperarture, is not a relevant factor. A diesel engine should always reach its operating temp and stay there within an insignificant range. Therefore, one should use whatever viscosity oil the manufacturer recommends at operating temp.

"IMO a synthetic oil with the wrong API catagory is no better than the correct dino oil and may in fact be detrimental for a marine application."

Absolutely correct. There are plenty of oils, both dino and synthetic, that meet our requirements.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:59 AM   #26
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Manufacturers buy the same stuff from the same suppliers. Turbos, bearings etc are not much different from one manufacturer to another. Even proprietary parts are made of metal sourced from the same suppliers. Materials are pretty much the same.

Engineering puts more pounds per square inch on some bearings but designers have little motivation to deviate from established standards. In the olden days engine protection was a function of viscosity. Additives changed that. Engineering is pretty much the same.

There were some aeration requirements for unit injectors and emissions requirements for catalytic converters and particulate filters but overall, same, same. Technology is pretty much the same.

It would be a rare individual who didn't run out of time, fuel or patience before they could wear out a diesel engine using any modern oil. The engine is likely to wear you out before you wear it out.

Clean wallly brand oil is better than any contaminated oil.


Where's my coffee? I might need a nap.
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Old 02-20-2019, 12:37 PM   #27
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I have a Ford 272x series operators manual labeled 1988. Below is the oil viscosity chart from page 16 of that manual. Of course the 2725 is the FL135 and the 2722 is the FL90. I believe this shows that Ford was keeping up with changes in oil technology. One just needs the newer recommendations.

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Old 02-20-2019, 12:58 PM   #28
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Does time passed factor into oil change interval or is it engine hours alone? ie every 200 hours or 6 months whichever comes first,
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:14 PM   #29
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Does time passed factor into oil change interval or is it engine hours alone? ie every 200 hours or 6 months whichever comes first,

I think you'll find varying opinions about this. I believe is it more out of concern about keeping contaminated oil in the engine for longer periods of time. In my personal opinion if the oil is very clean it can stay in longer. In fact, I am doing it this year. At layup time this year, my mains only had about 25hrs on the oil. I had it tested (test results excellent) and left it in. On next drain I should have about ~150hrs on that same oil and will have it tested again. It will be interesting to see how the oil tests then.


I once attended a seminar by the chief mechanic of the Norweigan Sun cruise ship. When oil change intervals came up, he said they only change when oil analysis indicated a change was due. They did not want to have to change the 11,000 liters unnecessarily.


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Old 02-20-2019, 02:18 PM   #30
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And IMHO that's where any of these oil discussions should end.
100%
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:19 PM   #31
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well too late!! LOL
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:23 PM   #32
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I have a 14 year old Volvo TAMD41P-A 6 cyl. 200 HP turbo diesel engine in my Camano. The manual recommends 15W-40 diesel engine oil. !
Its gone 14 years on 15/40 dino, what makes you think it needs anything different?
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:26 PM   #33
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catalinajack...
I guess we are in agreement on some but not all points then...

"Find me any manufacturer making diesel engines in the last 30 years or more that specs a straight grade oil if, in fact, it is a better choice."

I find it interesting that Cummins states they prefer / recommend multi-vis for general use but in their gennie applications make the follwong statements...

"NOTE: Multi-grade oils (such as SAE 15W-40) are recommended for year-round use in Cummins Onan liquid-cooled engines, or as a good all-season oil for air-cooled engines.
NOTE: SAE-30 is the preferred summer grade for optimum oil consumption control in Cummins Onan air-cooled engines."
and per the attached chart still show 30W for warm climate use.



"Agree 100%, well almost. Marine environment, by which I am assuming you mean ambient temperature, is not a relevant factor. Diesel engine should always reach its operating temp and stay there within an insignificant range. Therefore, one should use whatever viscosity oil the manufacturer recommends at operating temp."

Now I DO Disagree with your premise - any oil viscosity chart I have seen is based on environment / climate conditions experienced as higher vis oils are detrimental when starting in COLD Climates. All liquid cooled engines - whether gas or diesel - operate at roughly their designed temp and would only require the same vis oil in any conditions per your premise.
I would say that ALL engine mfgrs will make ol recommendations based on temp ranges that include cold(est) start temp & highest environmental temp expected - not normal engine operating temp
From the Cummins ref above...

"Oil Viscosities Use the following chart to select correct viscosity grades for expected ambient temperature range".

For most auto / truck / RV use multi-vis are appropriate but for unique applications - marine warm season use straight wt oils are perfectly acceptable per several sources I have seen.
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:32 PM   #34
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Some additive packages may have a time limit. However I would think that to be a very long time period.


Worse would be blow-by or soot and unburned fuel in the crankcase that can be an issue in the oil if left to sit for a long time. Can generate into solids that really need to be removed. (via an oil change)

The biggest issue over time may be moisture or condensation. It would be possible for an unused engine to develop condensation especially in a marine environment that has some temperature swings over a long period of time.

But just oil sitting in a crankcase, you should be good to go for a very long time. It is the other stuff that gets in the oil that is the issue with long storage times.
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Old 02-20-2019, 02:41 PM   #35
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"NOTE: Multi-grade oils (such as SAE 15W-40) are recommended for year-round use in Cummins Onan liquid-cooled engines, or as a good all-season oil for air-cooled engines.
NOTE: SAE-30 is the preferred summer grade for optimum oil consumption control in Cummins Onan air-cooled engines."
and per the attached chart still show 30W for warm climate use.

In the past (like 30 to 40 years ago) a single vis oil was much stronger than multi-vis oil. Because of the punishment that a marine engine produces in use, (usually runs at or near WOT a lot of the time or idle not much in between like auto applications) most marine engines had a single vis recommendation.


This may be why the gen manufacturer has that single weight oil recommendation.

I have been out of that side of engine engineering for a very long time and the oil produced now is nothing like the oil of the 1970s and 1980s. So multi-vis oils may have the strength (shear) that single weight oils used to. And the best recommendation would be to stick with the engine manufacturer's recommendation regarding oil viscosity.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:19 PM   #36
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When you look at oil viscosity charts for what oil vis oil to use keep in mind that your marine engine basically never experiences temps colder than 40 degrees f. So you don’t need a wide range of viscosity tollerance. Putting all those vis improvers in your oil actually lowers the ability of the oil to lubricate. That’s job#1.

I’m w Bob Smith on this one as I’ve always used Straight 30w oil in my engine. There just isn’t any need for muliti-vis oil in a marine engine’s enviroment. An exception would be an IO powered boat where the engine is exposed to outside air temps.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:46 PM   #37
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Of course you all know I would recommend Schaeffer's 700 CK-4

The Delo CK-4 or CJ-4 is great for your engine at 100hrs in any weight specified. 15-40 is quite universal, but some engines need straight 40 to protect the bottom end when operating COLD if you can believe it. The 15-40 still works even better for those too, but you need to warm up under no load conditions for a few minutes before powering up.

Any C rating on diesel oil goes back to cover all previous C ratings, so CK-4 is backward compatible to CJ-4, CI, CH and so on.

You're good to go.

The new deviant rating is the FA-4 10-30 spec. for a few 2017 and newer Detroit, Cummins Volvo models and possibly others. I do not know of any marine diesel engine calling for FA-4 yet. FA-4 is in trucking and is not compatible with any other oil type. Crossing this into a C oil spec engine is complete destruction.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:21 PM   #38
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Yes,
They do meet and exceed original requirements. The 5w however is of little real benefit in most marine environments where temps are very moderate, so a 15-40 is just fine too.
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Old 02-20-2019, 06:52 PM   #39
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We use Rotella T5 semi synthetic 10W30 for 5 years now with oil analysis each change. My analysis numbers have been steadily improving on our 30+ YO Perkins. What more could you want?
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:09 PM   #40
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I have a 14 year old Volvo TAMD41P-A 6 cyl. 200 HP turbo diesel engine in my Camano. The manual recommends 15W-40 diesel engine oil. The Synthetics I have seen on the market (Mobil 1, Shell's Rotella, etc.) for diesels seem to be mostly 5W-40. Are these lower cold pour synthetics compatible with older engines like mine? Does anyone know of authoritative articles on this subject?

It seems like using a synthetic with higher temperature tolerance, fewer contaminants than mineral oil, and better initial flow when starting up engines that experience longer time segments between use seem to make sense, while having the same high temperature viscosity as mineral oils. Seems like there should be some research literature out there, including recommendations from engine manufacturers. Goal, of course, is engine longevity, not searching for better mileage at the risk of higher engine wear. I welcome good research and recommendations from authoritative sources!

Thanks!
My TAMD41s are from 1990. My boat came with 1980 TMD40s, that I might, now consider "old". I still consider the 1990 engines "new".

Age of your engines is irrelevant to the oil discussion, unless they are really old, so use of any oil that meets or exceed the original specs will be good.
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