Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-11-2018, 06:15 AM   #21
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 20,273
"What other fool proof options?"

Fool proof is impossible , even with skilled folks and unlimited cash.

Ask the Challenger crew,

Reality is "stuff happens" , so its best to have a plan B
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 07:28 AM   #22
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchnsaw View Post
The ICW, which is actually kept open by tugs and barges in the more narrow areas is in a serious state as it relates to the areas around the smaller inlets . Several inlets have been completely closed, with buoys pulled completely out by the coast guard in North Carolina. Sand does not like to stay put, and in most cases when the wind changes, so does the sand and the depths in those regions. During the last eight years, money and equipment was not there to keep them open.
These are two different issues. The ICW continues to operate and dredging is still done. The inlets that have been abandoned were deemed unnecessary and too costly to maintain. I run my charter boat out of Hatteras NC for a week each year. Between the back channel and inlet dredging, it was deemed too costly to maintain for the amount of boating traffic. It was determined that having the Ocracoke and the Oregon inlets were sufficient. While I would like them to maintain the Hatteras inlet, the ICW isn't dependent on maintaining Hatteras inlet or every last inlet along the coast.

Ted
__________________

__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 07:47 AM   #23
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
As I said in my earlier post, the national politics are tilting toward closure. Pointing to what's happened in other lakes is a crutch to avoid making hard decisions regarding the health of this national wonder. The GLCA is an enemy to the Great Lakes sport and commercial fishing community.
If it was about a few recreational boats, I would agree with you that they might close the waterway there. This is about commercial traffic and a mandate that the Army Corps of Engineers has to maintain that waterway. States are powerless against this as it's mandated by the federal government. It will take an act of Congress to change it. More likely the Corps will propose another form of fish barrier to block the carp.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:07 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Scratchnsaw's Avatar
 
City: SOBX North Carolina
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
These are two different issues. The ICW continues to operate and dredging is still done. The inlets that have been abandoned were deemed unnecessary and too costly to maintain. I run my charter boat out of Hatteras NC for a week each year. Between the back channel and inlet dredging, it was deemed too costly to maintain for the amount of boating traffic. It was determined that having the Ocracoke and the Oregon inlets were sufficient. While I would like them to maintain the Hatteras inlet, the ICW isn't dependent on maintaining Hatteras inlet or every last inlet along the coast.

Ted
My first experience and trip down the ICW along the east coast was in 1971. Since then hundreds of trips have taken place, witnessing the changes that's taken place. Since then the build up that's taken place can be likened to going from a farm in Iowa to a New York City style population and development. But the inlet flow of water, especially in the narrower inlets do change the depths, and is I part dependent upon weather conditions such as hurricanes and big blows from the south.


This will change the ICW in and around the smaller inlets. Heck the Beaufort Inlet which is a ship's channel is barely stable now, even after about six years of numerous attempts with a variety of dredging as a result of 400 yards of the sandy banks moving after being destroyed from a hurricane.

But anyway with the development this has brought with it boats, massive amounts of them. Tackle stores, marinas, drystacks and fuel provides local revenue for the infrastructure to be maintained. Whether the Corp of Engineers is responsible for maintaining the inlets, the smaller inlets are key to this portion of the economy in a similar manner as all of those tugs and barges that has plowed the ditch for all of those years.

North Carolina is unique in a way with all of the sand that constantly moves about. After hurricanes, you should know that inlets open and close, even along the OBX. Many moons ago Topsail Inlet changed to a New Topsail and Old Topssil. So this is not a new thing that's happening

So what does this all have to do with dredging and the likes? Well picking winners and loosers is a bit political. We have witnessed this just in the past three plus years IIRC with the state's attempts to pay for the dredging with increased revenues from the boat registration.

The loudest voices was up state, even with many of the same people that lives upstate having second homes and boats along the beachfront areas. They screamed to high heavens about paying the added fees and spending those funds for the saltwater inlets.

Is there enough money to dredge on the state level? No matter when the general population agrees to bare the blunt of paying for the ongoing needs of the boating industry, in the same manner as when the fishing licenses was enacted, the dock side scuttle butt talking points is the beaurcrats have always found funds for new twin engine boats and new trucks each year or two to tow them without a problem.


I will add that serious improvements of boat ramps have taken place though for trailer queens all along the tributaries of the coastal areas, though. So there was good that came out of added costs.
Scratchnsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:23 AM   #25
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,416
It seems a tough task to fight billions of years of weather and natural coastal subsidence for the sake of developers and recreational boaters. This reality is not lost on other parts of the country fighting for Corps funds. There is little sympathy towards the ICW by a Missouri Congressman who is arguing for his own district's Mississippi River dredging and lock money.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 09:34 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
City: Tampa, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 464
Fool proof options. That's pretty funny. There is very little in life that is truly "fool proof." Mostly, when people think they have come up with something that is fool proof, they are only fooling themselves.
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:14 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Scratchnsaw's Avatar
 
City: SOBX North Carolina
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
It seems a tough task to fight billions of years of weather and natural coastal subsidence for the sake of developers and recreational boaters. This reality is not lost on other parts of the country fighting for Corps funds. There is little sympathy towards the ICW by a Missouri Congressman who is arguing for his own district's Mississippi River dredging and lock money.
While I agree with you in principle, the economy is a culmination of a lot of working parts. The ICW moves some of the similar products as the Miss. River does, certainly in the mass amounts of products like grain. But oil and gas flows in the ICW along with numerous working parts for the military. So its vital to keep it open.

Of course the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Expenditures are pork projects if you are only looking five feet in front of you if they do not directly impact you directly. But like the Tombigbee Waterway, if you build it they will come, which applies to any and all coastal regions and the over development of the areas.

So the infrastructure, including the waterways and inlets demands more funds than they did back in the 1970s when I was first exposed to it directly. But I also recognize their are priorities in other regions, such as dealing with the impact of the Asian Carp. Nothing stays the same except CHANGE.
Scratchnsaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:31 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
City: Washington
Country: US
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I should hope that every environmentally conscious boater would support closing the locks at Chicago.
I think an "environmentally conscious boater" would sell his/her boat and take up golf or knitting. A person who calls himself "environmentally conscious" wouldn't be buying a boat made from petroleum, filling it up with gas or diesel and then burning the fossil fuel going places he/she doesn't need to go and back at 3 miles per gallon.
aboatman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:36 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
If it was about a few recreational boats, I would agree with you that they might close the waterway there. This is about commercial traffic and a mandate that the Army Corps of Engineers has to maintain that waterway. States are powerless against this as it's mandated by the federal government. It will take an act of Congress to change it. More likely the Corps will propose another form of fish barrier to block the carp.

Ted
The Corps of Engineers was under Obama's thumb, which is why Illinois and Chicago (his home) were able to influence this threat to all of the Great Lakes. The route taken by the Corps has always been about politics and votes. Destroying the ecology of the Great Lakes is a hot topic in that part of the world and it will resonate throughout the country. Canada is already in the "close the locks" camp. It's a chance for the current leadership to demonstrate their concern for the environment. The only fool proof method to eliminate this particular threat source is to put it back the way nature intended it. Boat wash down following haul out and trailering is taken very seriously within the pleasure and sport/commercial fishing community.

Interesting (not) that there are so many skeptics on TF of all places. One might be left with the impression that completing the loop takes precedence over the environment.

Close the locks and provide a land bridge, or do the eastern portion down to Chicago and return in the clockwise direction. It's the best part anyway. Do something for the environment...support the lock closure. Contact your representatives. (Fat chance).
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 10:46 AM   #30
TF Site Team
 
City: Westerly, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: N/A
Vessel Model: 1999 Mainship 350 Trawler
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I should hope that every environmentally conscious boater would support closing the locks at Chicago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
The GLCA is an enemy to the Great Lakes sport and commercial fishing community.
These points seem at odds with one another. I could understand if we're talking about 'catch and release' sport fishing. That doesn't apply to most sport fishing and not to commercial fishing at all.

I'm going to guess you like to fish?
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 11:08 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,416
[QUOTE=Rufus;625477] One might be left with the impression that completing the loop takes precedence over the environment. QUOTE]

No quibbles with some of what you're saying Rufus, but two questions:

Of the half dozen or so environmental subjects raised on this thread, to which of these do you refer?

Secondly, what kind of vessel do you use for fishing in the Great Lakes?

Thanks
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 12:21 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 435
I don't fish...never have. I am, however, familiar with the huge cost associated with invasive species in the Great Lakes. The alewife fish invasion in the 1960's left huge banks of dead fish all around the Lakes. Zebra mussels continue to clog power plant intakes, the gobie fish are gobbling up the smaller food fish and killing some species of sport fish with their vicious spines. The lamprey eel is sucking the life out of native fish and rivers and streams are routinely poisoned in an attempt to kill them off. Invasive plant life clogs harbors forcing expensive "harvesting" of weeds. Another nasty invasion is the last thing the Great Lakes need. So, for all you environmentally responsible boaters out there, I implore you to ask the GLCA to lobby for closure of the locks at Chicago.
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 01:28 PM   #33
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,416
Rufus
How about the other points of inflow and exit into the Lakes? How are they secured?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 01:46 PM   #34
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,744
Interesting topic. Spending my whole life in NC, two things are true:

1) People assume the ICW will always be there
2) You will always hear stories about the funding being pulled, but someone always seems to find a way to get it funded

However, the political climate has changed and it is unclear what the future will hold. With the huge federal tax cut on the horizon, it my be that the states could lose federal funding for maintaining the ICW. Could the states keep up? Would they even be willing to? Georgia doesn't seem to put a high emphasis on keeping it up, but Florida does. Would it eventually become a fee-based canal? Would the amount of traffic even be enough to fund the amount of dredging it will take to keep a controlled depth? Would it be unpopular to add an ICW fee (or tax) to boat owners? What about those boats that don't use the ICW or only use it infrequently? Would that be fair?

I will be honest, I don't have enough info to even speculate as to where we go from here. I know it is a complex problem to solve. However, it really doesn't look good at the moment. Unless the dredging of the ICW gets defined as a military priority, it is likely the states are going to be left holding the check and I am pretty sure they will want us rich yacht owners to pay our share.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 01:58 PM   #35
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,537
I think the public are like the villagers in the story about the boy who cried wolf. Too many times we have heard " These ____________ are an invasive species and will be the end of the world as we know it !!"

That blank has been filled in with:

Zebra Mussels
Gyspsy Moth
Longhorn Beetle
Killer Bees
Burmese Pythons
Wild Boar
Common Starling
Bad Hombres ( that was a joke )

We keep hearing from environmentalists that if a species goes extinct its awful....and if we get a new species....its awful....and if it gets too cold...or it gets to hot, we are all going to die...or the ocean rises or falls, we are doomed.... Global warming is causing El Nino...La Nina.....stop buringing coal...and oil, but don't use nuclear and wind farms kill birds.......
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #36
Guru
 
boathealer's Avatar
 
City: Out Cruisin'
Country: US
Vessel Name: SCOUT
Vessel Model: Great Harbour N37
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
Interesting topic. Spending my whole life in NC, two things are true:

1) People assume the ICW will always be there
2) You will always hear stories about the funding being pulled, but someone always seems to find a way to get it funded

However, the political climate has changed and it is unclear what the future will hold. With the huge federal tax cut on the horizon, it my be that the states could lose federal funding for maintaining the ICW. Could the states keep up? Would they even be willing to? Georgia doesn't seem to put a high emphasis on keeping it up, but Florida does. Would it eventually become a fee-based canal? Would the amount of traffic even be enough to fund the amount of dredging it will take to keep a controlled depth? Would it be unpopular to add an ICW fee (or tax) to boat owners? What about those boats that don't use the ICW or only use it infrequently? Would that be fair?

I will be honest, I don't have enough info to even speculate as to where we go from here. I know it is a complex problem to solve. However, it really doesn't look good at the moment. Unless the dredging of the ICW gets defined as a military priority, it is likely the states are going to be left holding the check and I am pretty sure they will want us rich yacht owners to pay our share.
State-run tolls for commercial traffic passing through?
boathealer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:00 PM   #37
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,744
Quote:
Originally Posted by boathealer View Post
State-run tolls for commercial traffic passing through?
Don't laugh (if you did), it is probably very likely. And not just for commercial. It could be for pleasure boats too.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:46 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Great Laker's Avatar
 
City: Spring Lake, MI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Great Laker
Vessel Model: American Tug 34
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 346
I have been attending meetings of groups funded to study the Asian Carp invasion into the Great Lakes. Here are a few points that have not been mentioned.

The DNA of these carp has been found upstream of the electric fence on the Illinois River. However, to my knowledge no live fish have been caught upstream.

Asian carp have also come up the Ohio River into Ohio and could soon get into Lake Erie as well. So, Chicago is not the single point of entry.

One of the high risks for these fish getting in the Great Lakes is referred to as the "Yahoo Factor". That is where someone takes a fish from the Illinois and dumps it into a river flowing into the GLs just for a kick. These fish can stay alive out of water for many hours in the back of a vehicle.

It is not clear if the carp can sustain themselves in the GLs as there are few rivers suitable to for the fist to go upstream and spawn and the eggs to survive to maturity.

Finally, the salmon are dropping in numbers due to increased water clarity and lack of small fish food sources. So food supplies are an issue as well.
__________________
Larry
American Tug 34 - Great Laker, and Gold Looper
Home port on the vast unsalted Lake Michigan
adventuresofgreatlaker.blogspot.com
Great Laker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 03:47 PM   #39
Guru
 
City: Port Townsend
Country: North America
Vessel Name: The Promise
Vessel Model: Roughwater 35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"What other fool proof options?"

Fool proof is impossible , even with skilled folks and unlimited cash.

Ask the Challenger crew,

Reality is "stuff happens" , so its best to have a plan B

There’s always a more ingenious fool.
dhmeissner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2018, 06:34 PM   #40
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Florida
Country: usa
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratchnsaw View Post
Certain type dredges can only work in areas where there is enough water for them. The hopper dredges will not work in the smaller inlets. Its also a massive permitting process for pumping sand, along with a logistical nightmare in the restrictive areas. When sand moves, if you want the inlet opened back up for economic reasons, you can't just go there one day and dredge it by any means.

The state floated a notion that boating registration fees be raised and a portion be used for dredging. Thee boating folks inland balked saying they did not use most of the inlets that needs dredging.

And lets not talk about certain sands that cannot be pumped on certain beaches, even though the fine folks that lives on the beachfront constantly want beach replenishment. Anyway, nuff of the sidebar.
Nobody said anything about hopper dredges...I work for a dredging company and equipment can move sand,rock mud or what have you. I'm not saying its economically feasable. It probably isn't but its done in similar inlet situations worldwide, where economically worthwhile. "dig for floatation isn't a new concept. Equipment always available money, not so much...
__________________

__________________
Jack ...Chicken of the sea! 1600 ton Master of towing/Oceans. 1600 ton Master/Oceans.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×