Loop Lifespan

[Pura Vida]

The reality is, damage to the planet is caused by humans. The solution is to get rid of the humans. Or reduce the population to prehistoric levels.

I try to be environmentally responsible to a degree, but I've worked hard all my life and I'm not going to sit on my porch in a rocking chair until I die.

So, I bought a boat and I burn fossil fuel. I expect everyone on this forum does.

We have this kind of thinking in common!

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Yes you did!

well if my bit of twisted humor upset you, maybe seek a safe space. Moving right along...

 

[FlyWright]

Nobody ever got rich preaching that nature is cyclical, we don’t know near as much as we arrogantly assert, and quite often things just work themselves out. YMMV

So true. Plenty have sure gotten rich preaching doom and gloom.

Want to know the truth about human caused climate change? Just follow the money. There's no financial profiteering opportunities in letting nature take its course.

Interesting topic, with a lot of good information and opinions. I like this kind of frank expression of opinions and I like others, agree or disagree. I was told not to discuss religion or politics in public by my Mother, if she could advise me today she might include climate change/ man-made global warming to her list. I like to think that as a power boater I/we try to be environmentally responsible without going to the extreme of only boating in a wooden canoe. Climate change, man-made global warming are hot button topics.

Well said. Thanks!

Climate change is real and man made. But I don't take a chance on discussing it. But have no fear the CMP [Chemtrail Management Program] is working 24/7 to deal with this for the future generations.

As a retired Chemtrail pilot, I can assure you, we're on it! Here's a video of the system actually in use.

Here's a video that cracks me up every time. If you freeze frame at 2:15, look closely at the sign. They used different fonts in their photoshopped sign! It's hard to believe that folks actually believe this craziness.

Sleep well tonight in your Indigo Skyfold dreams.



Sorry for the sideshow distraction...what were we saying about the Loop?

 

[aboatman]

Climate change is real and man made. .......

That's an opinion and it's shared by some but not all scientists. So it's a matter of who you believe or for some unknown reason, by what political party you believe.

Keep in mind, throughout the history of the earth it has had swings to warmer and cooler. If you can prove it is getting warmer, you still can't prove this is caused by humans.

 

[aboatman]

............ Sorry for the sideshow distraction...what were we saying about the Loop?

Some are saying it will be closed soon to prevent the spread of invasive species. It could be said that humans are an invasive species in the western hemisphere because they came here from Asia via the Bering Strait when water levels were lower on the Earth.

Many plants and animals that we are accustomed to are also invasive species brought here from Europe by traders and settlers.

Closing the Great Loop is not likely anytime soon or it would be news on the Loop forums. Likewise, a search on the possible closing of the Erie Canal turns up only the winter closings or emergency lock closures. Local economies have too much invested in these and other long established waterways to let that happen.

 

[Benthic2]

Asian carp don't seem so bad..... These guys are having a lot of fun with them!!

 

[Bay Pelican]

The electric fence south of Chicago. Some say it is not foolproof and argue for closure of the canal and locks. Not a foolproof solution either as on any day more boats from south of the electric fence are trailered north of the fence than pass through the locks.

 

[aboatman]

The electric fence south of Chicago. Some say it is not foolproof and argue for closure of the canal and locks. Not a foolproof solution either as on any day more boats from south of the electric fence are trailered north of the fence than pass through the locks.

As transportation is more easily available and common, many plants and animals have and will continue to move to areas where they weren't before. Humans can try to slow it down but it's impossible to prevent it.

And there's no way to prevent someone from intentionally introducing species from one area to another.

 

[QB]

Want to know the truth about human caused climate change? Just follow the money. There's no financial profiteering opportunities in letting nature take its course.

If by "letting nature take its course" you mean "keep on burning fossil carbon like we're doing", there sure are lots of financial profiteering opportunities there!

 

[QB]

That's an opinion and it's shared by some but not all scientists.

The overwhelming majority of scientists share it now, don't they? They think the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Keep in mind, throughout the history of the earth it has had swings to warmer and cooler. If you can prove it is getting warmer, you still can't prove this is caused by humans.

Actually both of these are pretty well proven at this point, I think.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

The overwhelming majority of scientists share it now, don't they? They think the evidence is pretty overwhelming.



Actually both of these are pretty well proven at this point, I think.

Hehe, don't you mean 97% of "scientists" agree? Own the language, win the war. That mantra has been exercised by many an activist and today's Global Warming Faithers have mastered it. 97% of scientists won't agree on much, and certainly not mankind's activities as the cause of Global Warming. Pure politics; nothing more.

There are many good articles debunking the 97% myth. This is one. Enjoy.

Climate Change: No, It’s Not a 97 Percent Consensus | National Review

 

[Seevee]

<<<Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
I should hope that every environmentally conscious boater would support closing the locks at Chicago.>>>

I am environmentally concious and I do NOT support closing the locks.

Jack,
I totally agree. It's amazing how the "environmentally councious" have no clue.

 

[O C Diver]

The overwhelming majority of scientists share it now, don't they? They think the evidence is pretty overwhelming.



Actually both of these are pretty well proven at this point, I think.

Were these the same scientists who were predicting the next coming ice age in the late '70s when we were having abnormally cold winters?

Btw, if you need to take a poll of the scientists, clearly the science isn't settled.

Ted

 

[angus99]

It's amazing how the "environmentally councious" have no clue.

.

Well, I guess that makes me clueless.

I live near and worked in what used to be one of the most polluted cities in North America—Chattanooga, TN. When I moved here in the early 70s, the downtown area was filthy . . . there was no night life, few restaurants, limited shopping and most people lived in the suburbs. Some of the reasons were economic and racial, but a major factor was air quality. This was before any serious effort to clean the environment and the city stank, not to mention being unhealthy.

Today, because much of the heavy industry has left and the remainder has been required to reduce emissions (including a good friend of mine’s foundry), downtown development has transformed the city. Today, Chattanooga is a tourist destination, with a vibrant night life, new housing and condos sprouting up everywhere and loads of new businesses. Cleaner air certainly wasn’t the only driver, but development like this simply could not have occurred in the Chattanooga I knew in the 70s—the city’s reputation for poor air quality alone kept many people away. This kind of post-industrial development would not have occurred in Chattanooga—or other cities—without forward-thinking, civic-minded, environmentally conscious people who were willing to do more than talk platitudes.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

.

Well, I guess that makes me clueless.

I live near and worked in what used to be one of the most polluted cities in North America—Chattanooga, TN. When I moved here in the early 70s, the downtown area was filthy . . . there was no night life, few restaurants, limited shopping and most people lived in the suburbs. Some of the reasons were economic and racial, but a major factor was air quality. This was before any serious effort to clean the environment and the city stank, not to mention being unhealthy.

Today, because much of the heavy industry has left and the remainder has been required to reduce emissions (including a good friend of mine’s foundry), downtown development has transformed the city. Today, Chattanooga is a tourist destination, with a vibrant night life, new housing and condos sprouting up everywhere and loads of new businesses. Cleaner air certainly wasn’t the only driver, but development like this simply could not have occurred in the Chattanooga I knew in the 70s—the city’s reputation for poor air quality alone kept many people away. This kind of post-industrial development would not have occurred in Chattanooga—or other cities—without forward-thinking, civic-minded, environmentally conscious people who were willing to do more than talk platitudes.

I am not sure if I would link the major of the changes to Chattanooga to the changes in the industrial revolution and any pollution related issues. We know that modernization and the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas rendered factory workers and mill towns obsolete. Look at the furniture and textile industries in the south that's gone by the wayside.

Demographics has changed in the region. The state is tax friendly to all of those people that had had enough, coupled along with the colder temps on average from up north. So the migration of folks further south has changed Tenn. right along with many other states bordering Tenn. Sadly many of the migratory animals bring the same old political leanings with them and work to put them in place and destroy the freedoms that they find appealing to them as they move from the ratholes up north. [can I say that in today's climate?]:<}

 

[angus99]

Nothing stays the same—cities included—and I tried to be clear that a cleaner environment was only one factor—but an essential one—to Chattanooga’s resurgence. Read this from a Brookings Institute study and ask yourself if you’d invest in a city described this way:

The city’s population decline was also influenced by environmental conditions resulting from the continued concentration of manufacturing. In 1970, 30.4 percent of working Chattanoogans were employed in manufacturing. In 1969, the federal government declared that Chattanooga had the dirtiest air of any city in the United States. The air was so polluted that people drove with their headlights on during the day. Walking to work left clothes covered in soot, and it was difficult to see the mountains from the city.​

None of the public-private partnerships would have been possible here without a major environmental cleanup. My only point is that politically motivated, knee-jerk environmental-bashing ignores history and the very real benefits that we take for granted from sounder, non-extreme environmental policies. But that doesn’t fit with the current trend of Fox News revisionism.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Nothing stays the same—cities included—and I tried to be clear that a cleaner environment was only one factor—but an essential one—to Chattanooga’s resurgence. Read this from a Brookings Institute study and ask yourself if you’d invest in a city described this way:

The city’s population decline was also influenced by environmental conditions resulting from the continued concentration of manufacturing. In 1970, 30.4 percent of working Chattanoogans were employed in manufacturing. In 1969, the federal government declared that Chattanooga had the dirtiest air of any city in the United States. The air was so polluted that people drove with their headlights on during the day. Walking to work left clothes covered in soot, and it was difficult to see the mountains from the city.
​

None of the public-private partnerships would have been possible here without a major environmental cleanup. My only point is that politically motivated, knee-jerk environmental-bashing ignores history and the very real benefits that we take for granted from sounder, non-extreme environmental policies. But that doesn’t fit with the current trend of Fox News revisionism.

I am not sure how or why Fox news entered into this conversation. Of course air quality improved when you removed some of the older style factories and its boiler systems from the areas. That's a given. I take it that you have never experienced any paper mills though that's built right down town in some of the southern cities. Yet the rivers are very clean. ;<}


But numerous like areas such as areas in Pa. that lost a lot of their mills have not seen the same remake as you speak about. Can you say Detroit, anyone? And that has nothing to do with environmental policies or any perceived lack of clean up. Local and state governments that create a favorable environment will bring growth. The entire southern states of the U.S. can attest to that. Look at the growth in Texas, and especially the huge increase of industry that's seen in Ala. now. And they do not have intolerable issues or air quality with the large factories that's in plain view along the interstates.

 

[aboatman]

. .....................
Today, because much of the heavy industry has left and the remainder has been required to reduce emissions (including a good friend of mine’s foundry), downtown development has transformed the city. Today, Chattanooga is a tourist destination, ................... .

Yep, all the manufacturing (and good jobs) went to China and Korea. Former skilled manufacturing workers are now waiter and waitresses in that "tourist destination".

I've got news for you: Catering to tourists, feeding them dinner and cleaning their hotel rooms are not good career opportunities. More importantly, tourists need to come from somewhere where there are good jobs. We can't all be tourists.

Cleaning the environment and keeping it clean are very important but it has to be done with a balance. Shutting down a factory may reduce pollution but it can negatively affect many people's lives.

I posted that the cause of pollution is humans. Unless we get rid of the humans, we have to balance their needs with environmental needs.

 

[sunchaser]

Much of the measurable and visually cleaner air in various US cities during the past half century is a direct result of:

- Cleaner exhaust from cars, trucks and buses. Think nitrous oxides and soot
- Elimination of coal burning home heating systems. Similar to London of 1700s
- Shutting down coal boilers utilized by a myriad of factories and businesses
- Minimizing wood burning stoves and fireplaces. Think clean burn days
- Stack gas cleaning systems mandated by EPA for factories, smelters.
- Nuke and gas power plants combined with clean coal technology
- Implementation of PM 10 rules. Think dust control

Cleaner air exists over all major cities in the US and much of Europe as a direct result of the above and many other moves. Now for the rest of the world to catch up, dream on if you've been to India. PS, the list above is not fake news.

 

[Scratchnsaw]

Much of the measurable and visually cleaner area in various US cities during the past half century is a direct result of:

- Cleaner exhaust from cars, trucks and buses. Think nitrous oxides and soot
- Elimination of coal burning home heating systems. Similar to London of 1700s
- Shutting down coal boilers utilized by a myriad of factories and businesses
- Minimizing wood burning stoves and fireplaces. Think clean burn days
- Stack gas cleaning systems mandated by EPA for factories, smelters.
- Nuke and gas power plants combined with clean coal technology
- Implementation of PM 10 rules. Think dust control

Cleaner air exists over all major cities in the US and much of Europe as a direct result of the above and many other moves. Now for the rest of the world to catch up, dream on if you've been to India. PS, the list above is not fake news.

The new guidelines changed the marine diesel industry. Sadly this truly affected the availability of small hp engines for smaller work boats and launches, with some of the older ones no longer allowed for service. Anyone have the new style portable tanks? And those now non vented jerry jugs that you have to wrestle with the spouts to get gas out of ?

But I just wish that the same effort to clean up the environment would include the inland waters by putting diapers on those dang birds that resides in the shallow waters and dumps raw sewage in it. :lol:
back to sanding today,,,,,

 

[angus99]

I am not sure how or why Fox news entered into this conversation. Of course air quality improved when you removed some of the older style factories and its boiler systems from the areas. That's a given. I take it that you have never experienced any paper mills though that's built right down town in some of the southern cities. Yet the rivers are very clean. ;<}

But numerous like areas such as areas in Pa. that lost a lot of their mills have not seen the same remake as you speak about. Can you say Detroit, anyone? And that has nothing to do with environmental policies or any perceived lack of clean up. Local and state governments that create a favorable environment will bring growth. The entire southern states of the U.S. can attest to that. Look at the growth in Texas, and especially the huge increase of industry that's seen in Ala. now. And they do not have intolerable issues or air quality with the large factories that's in plain view along the interstates.

That last sentence wasn’t directed at you. I mentioned Fox because it’s a major source of simplistic, politically driven disinformation perpetuating the party line that any form of environmental regulation has been bad for jobs and the economy—which I strongly disagree with. Sentiments like “all the good jobs have gone to China . . .” To be sure, env regs were an additional pressure facing industry, and some couldn’t meet them and stay profitable, but others could and did. The off-shoring of manufacturing jobs is far more complex.

I totally agree with you that manufacturing and reasonable environmental goals can co-exist, but much of that growth would not be occurring if we had the same environmental standards of the ‘60s, when rivers we’re catching fire. I worked for an organization for over 30 years that played a major part in creating conditions that have helped the manufacturing sector rebound across much of the Southeast. Those conditions are a holistic menu of tax incentives, labor training, dedicated site development, cheap power and predictable environmental requirements that allow cleaner industries to thrive—and, yes, that includes steel mills and fabricators that can meet the regs. Each city’s story is different and—sadly for them—Detroit and other rust-belt cadavers unfortunately have not (yet) had the vision or resources needed to make the transition.

Lastly, one of the (formerly) largest paper mills in North America is just up the road from Chattanooga. It survived the env regs, but is struggling with the steep decline in newsprint.

 

[angus99]

Much of the measurable and visually cleaner area in various US cities during the past half century is a direct result of:

- Cleaner exhaust from cars, trucks and buses. Think nitrous oxides and soot
- Elimination of coal burning home heating systems. Similar to London of 1700s
- Shutting down coal boilers utilized by a myriad of factories and businesses
- Minimizing wood burning stoves and fireplaces. Think clean burn days
- Stack gas cleaning systems mandated by EPA for factories, smelters.
- Nuke and gas power plants combined with clean coal technology
- Implementation of PM 10 rules. Think dust control

Cleaner air exists over all major cities in the US and much of Europe as a direct result of the above and many other moves. Now for the rest of the world to catch up, dream on if you've been to India. PS, the list above is not fake news.

Dead right on the results, Tom. I would also add fracking, which is a primary economic driver behind the switch from coal to gas-fired power plants.

As for India etc catching up, I doubt many people in the 1950s thought the US could change, so I never say never.

 

[aboatman]

................................. I doubt many people in the 1950s thought the US could change, so I never say never.

They certainly didn't think all the manufacturing jobs would go overseas. That we would become a nation of burger flippers.

 

[Hamrow]

The GLCA is an enemy to the Great Lakes sport and commercial fishing community.

This is rather odd; coming on Trawler Forum and bad-mouthing the AGLCA is a bit like walking into a downtown Seattle bar and bad-mouthing Russell Wilson. Not everyone does the loop but i'd suspect to find significant support of it here.
Plus this comment seems to suggest that multi-thousand horsepower gas 30GPH sportfishers are more environmentally-friendly than diesel-sipping trawlers?!?

Interesting (not) that there are so many skeptics on TF of all places. One might be left with the impression that completing the loop takes precedence over the environment.

Close the locks and provide a land bridge, or do the eastern portion down to Chicago and return in the clockwise direction. It's the best part anyway. Do something for the environment...support the lock closure. Contact your representatives. (Fat chance).

You cannot do half the loop then turn around and go back; it would be America's Great Non-Loop. the loop takes months to complete in a trawler and requires planning and seasonal timing to start in the southeast in the spring and get through Chicago in the fall, but not enter the gulf before hurricane season is complete. It is a great adventure, way to see all different parts of the country, sharpen your captain skills in so many different marine environments, and provide a challenge and way to keep your mind sharp in retirement after working hard your whole life for such opportunities.
The U.S. has made good strides in improving the environment, which is why our skies don't look like Bejing. But if you keep regulating and shutting down choices people have today, eventually you have no freedom.

 

[aboatman]

This is rather odd; coming on Trawler Forum and bad-mouthing the AGLCA is a bit like walking into a downtown Seattle bar and bad-mouthing Russell Wilson. Not everyone does the loop but i'd suspect to find significant support of it here.
Plus this comment seems to suggest that multi-thousand horsepower gas 30GPH sportfishers are more environmentally-friendly than diesel-sipping trawlers?!?



You cannot do half the loop then turn around and go back; it would be America's Great Non-Loop. the loop takes months to complete in a trawler and requires planning and seasonal timing to start in the southeast in the spring and get through Chicago in the fall, but not enter the gulf before hurricane season is complete. It is a great adventure, way to see all different parts of the country, sharpen your captain skills in so many different marine environments, and provide a challenge and way to keep your mind sharp in retirement after working hard your whole life for such opportunities.
The U.S. has made good strides in improving the environment, which is why our skies don't look like Bejing. But if you keep regulating and shutting down choices people have today, eventually you have no freedom.

Good points and a good post.

 

[angus99]

They certainly didn't think all the manufacturing jobs would go overseas. That we would become a nation of burger flippers.

You’re right; not that many people in my family’s income strata in the ‘50s could afford to eat out enough to imagine a large workforce of burger flippers. Or two-car families or artisan beers. Neither could they imagine that many of the top growth industries in the US would be related to industries that hadn’t been invented yet—like information technology—or that health care, education or financial services would take off. Times change.

Workers and their families have borne the brunt of manufacturing jobs going away—from any number of causes—and that’s a tragedy. I have family members that are going through it. But “all” manufacturing jobs aren’t gone; today manufacturing jobs in absolute numbers are roughly at 1941 levels (about 12 to 13 million vs a high in the ‘70s of under 20 million). It’s a tough row to hoe for sure, but communities that are adapting to the realities of the world are finding new ways to coax industries back while growing jobs in the newer fields. Those mired in “the way things used to be” aren’t faring so well.