How We Ended Up Buying a New Boat

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hrk said:
First of all I apologize to BandB about slow recounting of our story of buying a new boat.
I sympathize with the feeling being annoyed about having to wait for cliffhangers.
I was never much a fan of TV show Dallas and that cliffhanger of "who shot JR?" thing, either.

Alas, although I am retired, I am having what I say is an active retirement. That means everyday there are multiple different agendas competing for my time. Moreover, currently,
I am in the process of sale of our primary home and also moving to a different continent for a period of 2 years before we return back to USA permanently (for my wife work).
But, I shall try to speed up and conclude this thread in two or three more installments, each written up daily, hopefully!

When we started the process we were open to buying a used boat as well as a new boat. I understand the logic behind buying a slightly used boat. fast depreciation in early years, all the kinks worked out and some are well maintained and are mainly "distress" sale i.e. due to changed circumstances or changed interest levels. so, we kept an open mind on it almost till the end of the process.

The first call we had to make in order to narrow our field of choices was to list what was important to us. After talking to few friends and doing a lot of internet research, it appeared that how we planned to cruise and favorite cruising grounds were important factors.

We decided that we are looking to cruise mostly coastal - first year for east coast of USA from Maine to Bahamas. Later years look to do Caribbean islands. I more than my wife is interested in curing meds in Europe for couple of years. She would rather stay closer to USA and take a boat through Panama Canal and take over boat to west coast to seattle and to Alaska. So, what does that leave out? We are not that keen on taking the boat across oceans - Pacific or Atlantic. Seems like either you have too much of exciting trip or a too many dull boring days crossing oceans - not something we desired. Same way, we are hardy but in a way lazy cruisers. More likely to do 4-5 days overnight trips but no longer. Globe circumnavigation is not in our future. In few years, we will probably be back on land with permanent home in Bay Area and boat being used three four months a year to live one in PNW area.

Given that type of cruising parameters, we embarked on deciding which style of boat and what length works best for us. If we were younger or using this boat to entertain friends, our choice could be different but currently we thought that full displacement fits us best. At 60's retired couple, we are unlikely to get somewhere in hurry. and, we value the extra sense of motoring comfort and stability we get in full displacement boat, even though its ocean crossing ability was not a major draw for us.

We visited several boat shows, devoured Internet (and this website - mostly by my wife) to get educated about several vendors, boat styles and then narrowed our choice to Kadey-Krogen, Nordhavn, Fleming and Selene. I realize that I have already offended many veterans on this forum by excluding their favorite brand of boats and vendors from this short list. Perhaps that was due to our ignorance and inexperience. But, I think any such list is likely to be more of personality driven.

What was and is important to us as we head in to cruising lifestyle?
Living comfort was topmost as we are as likely to be cruising as to be stationary perhaps even more hours at anchor than motoring. Our kids are not in to sailing or motoring so we don't quite expect to have many visitors on our boats for long periods. And, they will be so busy with their careers anyway for next seven years.

Manuverability was also very important since we are new to boating - having thrusters, stabilizers etc a must. But, also, this is going to be our home and thus not quite ready to have crew on it. so, the boat has to be comfortable for two and manuverable (without panic attacks) by two. We are both in good health so did not place that much emphasis on not having stairs within the boat. We did see a boat (I think it was N80) where there was hydraulic elevator built in to take one person from bedroom area to saloon and to flybridge. The boat was too big for us and somehow that much money did not seem like good value. We may though regret not paying much attention to this aspect as we keep aging.
In any case, our plans is to buy a boat, keep it for 6-7 years and then sale it. (If my wife permits, big if, I might even buy a day sailor - I agree with the person who said that sailboats are most fun in long voyages and couple of days trips but not for live-aboard lifestyle).

One factor we kept loose was how much we spend for a boat. The sailboat we bought 14 years ago was used and did not cost that much. Over the years, I always regretted not upgrading it to very nice 60 foot sailboat that we saw on the market in 2014. We did not buy because I felt that its price of 700K plus was too much to pay for one or two months of sailing every year. That was really a great sailboat but can not rewind to past. now, things are different.

Meanwhile, our financial situation has changed, making it feasible to think in bigger numbers. We started with a target budget of low 2 mils that was not very firm and ultimately, we ended up thinking even bigger than our initial figure. I will detail some thinking on that in my next post.

The considerations above drove our choice of boat length. We saw many 40's and concluded that we need minimum 50' to live comfortably full time on a boat. and, anything above 60' seemed like a stretch for handling by two people. so, 50-60 became our range.

With these choices made, we started intensively to look at various models from these vendors on our short list. In my next post - which I expect to become a bit more of emotions from various readers, I shall talk about which one we finally chose to go with.

BTW: I do not mind any criticism or adverse comments about our process. It is a part of belonging to such a forum, Besides, I find such comments interesting to read, because it sometimes adds to my knowledge base. And it helps that I have a rather thick skin, developed while being an entrepreneur / founder of internet companies in my past life!!
Click to expand...

Sounds like very solid process and narrowed to 4 brands, all of which could likely serve your purpose well. I couldn't fault any of the four.

Keep up the good work and you may develop a readership like Wayfarer, most renowned of all TF writers. He's been known to let a nasty thing like work also interfere with installments. We give him as we did you much the same level of treatment Law and Order SVU fans gave NBC over not having an episode last week, allowing Thanksgiving to interfere.

As a businessman turned entrepreneur in retirement, I share some common spirit. And I did have to google to find out who did shoot JR. Of course it was a minor character.
 
"And I did have to google to find out who did shoot JR. Of course it was a minor character."

Only waste of time greater that action mentioned above... this post of mine! Ta hell with JR!! LOL
 
What!….no catamaran in the group? Well…., I guess if I had the juice, I’d probably have ended up with the same final four. Can hardly wait to critique your choice! (Critiquing dream boats, now that’s a laugh.)
 
richard packard.
you hit the nail on the head. I have owned a bunch of sailboats and motorboats on SF bay like you. From a Ranger 29 sailboat to a Catalina 36 to a J105 and from a Mainship 30 powerboat to a Krogen 42 and a Sabre 42 flybridge powerboat. Daysailing in a sailboat or crossing oceans and going to Mexico in a sailboat. Trawlering, overnighting and gunkholing and partying in a powerboat. The inside space on a 30 foot powerboat is like a 36 foot sailboat and a 42 foot Krogen is like a 60 foot sailboat in terms of living space.
A 60 foot powerboat is a lot of boat for most people in their 70's but best of luck and keep us posted.
 
It was the butler. It`s always the butler.
Looking forward to a long story made longer.
 
BandB said:
And I did have to google to find out who did shoot JR. Of course it was a minor character.
Click to expand...

Hey! No spoilers! :D

Great thread, thanks for starting it. My guess is a Fleming 55!
 
When you choose your boat consider both boat draft and air draft.
 
Time for another addition. I am currently on east coast and got up so early that watching anchoring video by SV Panope is how got my day started!. Before i jump into my daily grind, i thought would add a post in the thread. This one may anger som fans of brands not ultimately chosen but heck, i still would be happy to hear their complaints, short of calling me an idiot.

So, our short list of vendors made (Kadey Krogen, Nordhavn, Fleming and selene), we went hunting used boats online. Found that market is currently too hot and not many boats were available that fit our criteria. About that crteria i should add one more. I have always prided myself on trying to make financial sense of decisions we make. We would be reasonably able to expect to hold on to a boat we buy for next 7-8 years barring any health problems or family circumstances. After which, we would give up on boating or at leadt cruising style of boating for which this boat is to be bought. So, there is the question of difference between residual value versus purchase price today. It is that amount plus maintenance cost (different for old boats versus new one) plus cost of lost income by leaving that money say in a bond or equity market is what we are paying for a boat. Difficult to go into details in this type of forum, but intuition suggests that that would sort of define a range of years old boats we should look to buy. In that way of looking, we found very few boat on the market today that appealed to us. Another factor that pulled us over to new boat build is a personal situation. For reasons of mostly international travel for that my spouse is engaged in for next 24 months, we would see a much lower amount of usage - may 2-3 weeks each year for next 2 years. In other words, the time it would take to build a new boat was actually not a problem for us.

Having done some online research of available boats and features they have, we felt equipped to attend boat shows. Saw three this year, newport, baltimore and fort lauderdale. Boarded many boats available there from these four vendors plus some others just to get feel of interior space on different styles. In retrospect, i would say that it was a mistake for us to not have seen any catamaran powerboats. I am sure interiors there is set up differently. But, hey, we did best we could. These shows can be so tiring and thing do get blurrier after a while.

Some remarkable boats we saw and liked (but not enough to buy): new hunt 63, used fleming, nordhvn 80, KK 42, azimut, etc.

These visits clarified in our mind that we want flybridge type of boat, with walk around space even though it reduces interior space in saloon, and boat with machine room where i can comfortably work. Not all models we saw were equal in that. And some boats like hunt 63 (too costly any way in my opinion or rather not enough value for space you get) and N80 were both lovely but needs crew in our opinion for an old couple to own/operate. So not our thing. Fleming is a faster boat, was quite well appointed and about half the cost of we will ultimately pay for our current choice. But, the financial i mentioned above precluded it being a right choice. Also, it was a bit too big for us two to handle.

selene was hard to find at these boatshows, and, we also heard from some experts about their reputations not being as good as two vendors we finally focused on - Kadey Krogen and nordhavn.
The models we were interested in were not at these shows - and my wife’s travel meant she was not at all these shows with me. So, we ended up actually getting brokers at these two companies to help contact owners of boats we were interested in visiting and boarding.
We focused KK and Nordhavn. And, visited N60 (and several other models of N) at dana point and in florida. We also made visits to see KK 50 open and KK 58. My wife and also looked at KK 48. KK 48 is a great boat but we preferred slightly more living space. Since my wife and both expect to have a decent office space on the boat.

I personally liked KK 50 Open over KK58. Both are solid constructions, but i liked having pilot house and saloon on the same level. It makes saloon more airy and more light. N60 is built and feels like a tank. That’s the one i would choose if i was circumnavigating. We equally liked KK58 EB model too. I had seen KK Open earlier at Newport show, where my wife was not there. So, i concealed my preference until she saw it and had a chance to look at these three top choices (KK 50 open, KK 58 EB and N60) and make independent ranking. It is a tribute to our long marraige - 40 plus years - that we arrived at the same choice. We both love 50 Open style.

One final moment of who done it! The boat we are going to build is actually going to be hull #1 of KK 60 open. Crazy for a newbie to make this choice? Yes. Perhaps. But, fits our attitudes about risk/rewards in owning hull #1, having a thrill of being first see a new design from inception, and, also love the extra space we get in bedroom, living room, kitchen (i am a good cook so kitchen space was important to me) and machine room where a 6’ ft tall can comfortably walk in.

One final note about single engine versus twin engine. We definitely wanted twin engine because of draft being lower. Important if you are to spend time in Caribbean islands.
And, we don't anticipate doing great loop in this boat.

I will read and comment / reply for sometime in this thread but further new threads will move to Kadey Krogen forums or some other forums. Still getting used to how to navigate TF comfortably and in useful way.
 
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"One final note about single engine versus twin engine. We definitely wanted twin engine because of draft being lower. Important if you are to spend time in Caribbean islands."

The Bahamas has lots of very thin water , in the Caribbean its mostly mountain tops that form the islands.

In some places you can be 100ft off the island , in 100 ft of water.
 
An interesting choice. So the question that comes to my mind is if you're planning to sell 7 or 8 years from now and you are buying a new size boat that I assume the molds don't exist for, how many years do you plan to actually cruise the boat? Or is the plan to cruise for 7 or 8 years after the boat finally makes it through the new build and commissioning process (how many years will that be)? Of recent, Krogen doesn't start the mold building process until they have sold enough boats to break even, typically 2 or 3. Have they sold enough to start the 60 yet?

Ted
 
I am not familiar with waters around Bahama but have sailed quite a bit around Caribbean. All major islands visied at least once except for Aruba. Quite few achorages, i wishedi had catamaran and not monohull - our draft was just over 6 ft.
 
I meant 7-8 years after boat is commissioned. 3-4 years full time cruising is our current plan and than extended stays of 3-4 months other years.

Hull #1 is being started now is my understanding. If not, our decision would have to be of course changed.

hrk
 
rpackard said:
I presently have three boats in different geographical locations: two Willard trawlers (30 and 40ft) and a light weight 34ft sailboat. I have owned a boat for the past 63 years. My take is the following and it meshes with your conclusions.

Sailboats are best for two things: day sailing and crossing an ocean. There is little aesthetic enjoyment from an afternoon motoring and most trawlers cannot cross oceans safely. However for cruising, the trawler is much superior for the reasons you and others have expressed.

Two suggestions. If you are already close to 70 and wish to enjoy your trawler for many years: 1. Do not buy a boat with stairs. The sedan style comes closest to this. 2. Be sure that access to the engine room does not involve crawling or excessive bending.

Good luck in your adventure.

Richard P
Click to expand...
============================
so timely thread as I am on the fence to move from sail to trawler.

Curious about having 3 boats in different locations.

Since I have such hard time to make a decision though about keeping my sailboat on a location that will be more likely to be used and have a trawler for an area/season will have more use.
Like winter may use the sailboat on the Gulf even a sail to Cozumel and summer the East coast (not necessarily the loop) all the way up to even the great lakes.
thank you David
 
hrk said:
I will read and comment / reply for sometime in this thread but further new threads will move to Kadey Krogen forums or some other forums. Still getting used to how to navigate TF comfortably and in useful way.
Click to expand...

I don't question decisions as much as I do methods, other than when the decision is totally inconsistent. The point is I think you went through a very organized way of making a selection. Your process was good so I have to trust you made the right choice for you.

Only one thing I'd argue with, your mention of making a wise financial decision. There is only one when it comes to boating, don't do it. Otherwise, it's expensive and there is no right financial choice in boating, just some perhaps worse than others. I only buy new boats but will also freely admit they're unwise financially. Still I do it. That's fine. Just don't lead yourself to believe that finances led to your boat choice. No, your study did, followed by you falling in love with a new model and deciding it was the one. Nothing at all wrong with that.

I look forward to following your build progress and seeing you actively boating in a couple of years. And tell KK to put the 60 open on their web site so all can see the model.

Would I argue with some information in your post? Yes, but any two of us would argue about any boat. Few boats on which there's a consensus.
 
hrk said:
One final note about single engine versus twin engine. We definitely wanted twin engine because of draft being lower. Important if you are to spend time in Caribbean islands.
Click to expand...

Interesting and wouldn't exactly agree to drawing the same conclusion based on this one limitation/requirement. There are a lot of consequences upon choosing twin (positive and negative both), although it sounds like KK did not offer a single option anyway.

Is this really the only reason for this decision, and how much draft did you save?
 
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God forbid you do hit the bottom, better to have a protected single than an exposed twin. I know this firsthand.
 
You should be ashamed of yourself, none of us have ever hit bottom :angel:
 
BandB said:
I only buy new boats but will also freely admit they're unwise financially. Still I do it.
Click to expand...

I would like to thank you, the OP and all boaters who purchase new boats. I have only purchased used. It strikes me as really funny when people who purchase used boats discourage others from new builds. If not for the bold who commission new builds, the rest of us would have to find a new hobby.
 
BandB said:
Just don't lead yourself to believe that finances led to your boat choice. No, your study did, followed by you falling in love with a new model and deciding it was the one. Nothing at all wrong with that.
Click to expand...

Financial analysis can certainly be part of a boat-buying decision without any illusion of making a profit. Often the goal with boats is to lessen (or at least consider) the overall cost to own from start to finish. Lowering the cost of ownership can be just as valuable as making a profit on another purchase or activity in the effect it has on overall finances.

I’m a finance guy to the bone, and also a big believer that often the most cost-effective purchase is often one that requires a higher initial purchase price for a higher quality product with lower maintenance cost and higher resale than the other choices. Seems to me that’s what the OP has in mind when he say financial decision.
 
My process was to start used, for two reasons: 1. I wasn't sure how much I would use the boat, and wanted a year or two to decide whether or how big my "final" boart should be. 2. There was one immediately available, older than I wanted, that was conveniently located and had a well know service history with little usage. It made everything easy for me.

I assume that I will lose substantially on it when I sell, as I paid a covid premium and I am like all things I do over improving it. However, against the cost of a lost season or two, and making a mistake on my new order or relatively new boat by going too big or too small or even any boat, it seemed like a reasonable tradeoff.
 
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Great Write-up!

Thanks for the great write-up! I enjoyed your thought process and whie I would have chosen differently, this all works for you. I will say don't think twice about catamarans. I've watched the youtube videos of the guy rehabbing a big catamaran and I would personally shy away from them until there are clear demonstrations of good engineering of the entire boat. The twisting pressures exert a lot of force on the lateral connections and they don't seem terribly well-built...

Buying the first hull built is a choice that I wouldn't have made, but there are pros and cons and you've made your choice. Boating on the Puget Sound one piece of advice I would offer to anyone looking at a pilothouse boat, run the boat at your preferred speed and make sure that running from the pilothouse is comfortable. I have been on a lot of boats that "squat down" when under way and the pilot house position is virtually unusable from a visibility perspective.
 
Hygge said:
https://www.followingseas.media/blog/2018/3/2/a-new-twist-on-single-vs-twin
Click to expand...

Regarding the article, he's kind of all over the place. In the end it sounds like he prefers twins especially on older boats because one of them is likely to fail. Not sure I agree, but eveyone has an opinion. However I don't understand this statement, maybe someone can explain it to me:

... having two engines provide the get-home ability, as well as reducing the need for a third engine to generate electricity. Overall, he reasoned that these two engines could reduce the weight and cost of onboard systems, a design goal he likes to pursue.

Is he saying that one engine replaces the need for a generator? I don't understand how adding a second main engine reduces weight and eliminates other onboard systems. I must be missing something.
 
guy with a boat said:
Financial analysis can certainly be part of a boat-buying decision without any illusion of making a profit. Often the goal with boats is to lessen (or at least consider) the overall cost to own from start to finish. Lowering the cost of ownership can be just as valuable as making a profit on another purchase or activity in the effect it has on overall finances.

I’m a finance guy to the bone, and also a big believer that often the most cost-effective purchase is often one that requires a higher initial purchase price for a higher quality product with lower maintenance cost and higher resale than the other choices. Seems to me that’s what the OP has in mind when he say financial decision.
Click to expand...
Actually, that’s what I was saying about Financial calculations.
Having owned a sailboat for many years, i know that boats are depreciating assets
and only way you not lose many is by not buying one!
 
Mako said:
Interesting and wouldn't exactly agree to drawing the same conclusion based on this one limitation/requirement. There are a lot of consequences upon choosing twin (positive and negative both), although it sounds like KK did not offer a single option anyway.

Is this really the only reason for this decision, and how much draft did you save?
Click to expand...
Actually, i was ok with one engine like nordhavn has and some KK boats too have that option. That factor did not bother me much.
Spouse was more concerned about draft than me.
Decision of which vendor/boat to by was
Definitely not based on this factor.

I did worry about extra maintenance cost and extra cost but ultimately i did not have strong preference so let spouse make a call. If we had a strong preference for single engine, it would have nudged us towards N60.

Dont plan on getting grounded but **** do happen. Having sailed in Maine (rocky bottoms) it would have been devastating to be grounded on some remote harbors down east (of schodic point!). Did not really think about in relationship with single vs twin engine decision.

Did
 
Robster_in_edmonds said:
Thanks for the great write-up! I enjoyed your thought process and whie I would have chosen differently, this all works for you. I will say don't think twice about catamarans. I've watched the youtube videos of the guy rehabbing a big catamaran and I would personally shy away from them until there are clear demonstrations of good engineering of the entire boat. The twisting pressures exert a lot of force on the lateral connections and they don't seem terribly well-built...

Buying the first hull built is a choice that I wouldn't have made, but there are pros and cons and you've made your choice. Boating on the Puget Sound one piece of advice I would offer to anyone looking at a pilothouse boat, run the boat at your preferred speed and make sure that running from the pilothouse is comfortable. I have been on a lot of boats that "squat down" when under way and the pilot house position is virtually unusable from a visibility perspective.
Click to expand...
KK 50 Open design has better visibility from pilothouse than Nordhavn or so it seemed.
Hope that remains true for 60 Open as well.
 
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