I would simply say they did only a part of the job, which is what I'd expect for $350. If they don't clean the tanks then they didn't do the job of polishing. They just filtered some fuel for you.
Fuel polishing--dirty diesel fuel tanks
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I would simply say they did only a part of the job, which is what I'd expect for $350. If they don't clean the tanks then they didn't do the job of polishing. They just filtered some fuel for you.
My fuel polishing system on a previous boat was called "two Detroit 6-71's." The single below-sole 1600 gallon fuel tank had zero access and likely hadn't been cleaned in the 40 years prior to my purchase.
I added tons of conditioners, stirred it all up in heavy seas and burnt 1000 gallons.
No Racors on that boat, just the Detroit primary and secondary, changed often.
Gotta love those 6-71's!
I added tons of conditioners, stirred it all up in heavy seas and burnt 1000 gallons.
No Racors on that boat, just the Detroit primary and secondary, changed often.
Gotta love those 6-71's!
Once again I fully agree with you about that, B.
Filtering is not polishing at least for the companies specialized in fuel purification here in European Union which are subject to specific process and regulations.
The #1 service provide a full pump out through a filtration system, then fuel is centrifuged at 5,000 RPM (3,000 to 5,000 g) for minutes to ensure perfect clean-up which is polishing.
Then clean fuel is transferred into a temporary clean tank of the service truck while the tanks aboard are softly cleaned (optional service #2) with a steam jet and specific additives. Steam has a significant specificity of cleaning and disinfection.
After drying the tanks, the external fuel jauge tubes can be replaced if necessary, accuracy of the mechanical or electronic jauges are controlled, must be set to zero for calibration adjustment (new tubes & jauges calibration is optional service #3). Then clean fuel is pumping back aboard.
Services #1 + #2 +#3 for a total of $1,700 taxes included in June 2016.
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sunchaser
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KW
Where was the fuel source for your newly delivered vessel? A European Harbor?
I do believe you raised a good point in your first paragraph. My vessel and many others have not (hopefully) suffered potential indignities of older lower EPA spec diesel fuel with dirtier shore storage tanks.
Back in the nineties I was involved with purchasing very large quantities of diesel for off highway land use. The specs were tightening. Even in Russia, but that crap is a different story. Some of this diesel was covered under the CARB banner. The ever tightening regulatory spec dictates imposed on diesel were dramatic, whether for sulfur, particulates, ash or water.
My point, Europe was a bit later to this cleaner diesel fuel party.
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FF
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"Polishing" running the fuel thru a filter does work slowly, the fuel does get cleaner.
The "tank" walls in most cases stays contaminated so any motion will cause more gunk in the
fuel. Violent motion will speed the process.
Aftermarket inspection ports installed and a good scrubbing are the only cure for a "tank" that has been fouled.
I put "tank" in quotes because many builders will claim a box that holds fuel is a fuel "tank".
A real fuel tank is a complex and expensive item to construct . The archives have links.
Since the first purchaser did not require any thing better than a fuel box , that sadly is on many boats.
Most fuel is fairly clean at the dock, so the contaminates come from water , and "bugs" living at the diesel water interface.
A genuine fuel tank will have an easy to drain sump,to catch the water and allow its removal.
A better practice for a fuel box is a above the bottom fuel pickup, screen or punctured plate above the bottom and a bottom drain that IS serviced.
A valve can be made safer with a pipe plug that is R&R before draining the water.
Even this costs money so is rare .
The "tank" walls in most cases stays contaminated so any motion will cause more gunk in the
fuel. Violent motion will speed the process.
Aftermarket inspection ports installed and a good scrubbing are the only cure for a "tank" that has been fouled.
I put "tank" in quotes because many builders will claim a box that holds fuel is a fuel "tank".
A real fuel tank is a complex and expensive item to construct . The archives have links.
Since the first purchaser did not require any thing better than a fuel box , that sadly is on many boats.
Most fuel is fairly clean at the dock, so the contaminates come from water , and "bugs" living at the diesel water interface.
A genuine fuel tank will have an easy to drain sump,to catch the water and allow its removal.
A better practice for a fuel box is a above the bottom fuel pickup, screen or punctured plate above the bottom and a bottom drain that IS serviced.
A valve can be made safer with a pipe plug that is R&R before draining the water.
Even this costs money so is rare .
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Polishing is a broad term with no strict definition. Having personally cleaned out scores of diesel tanks, and supervised the cleaning of many more, I can make some broadly applicable observations, all of which apply strictly to diesel fuel.
Dockside polishing services, for the most part, clean the fuel but not the tank. Some claim that their wands and high pressure jets can clean a tank, but the fact is, if they can't enter every baffled chamber this is simply not possible. While there is value to dockside polishing, all filtration is good if it's removing contaminants, if the tanks are heavily contaminated, then the value of cleaning just the fuel is limited.
For older vessels, the accumulation of debris on tank bottoms can be considerable, especially if they sit idle for long periods, and in warm regions, where biological growth thrives. The accumulated bottom debris is usually a mixture of asphaltene, a naturally occurring contaminant in diesel, and the byproduct of water contamination. In the latter case, water supports biological growth, mostly bacteria and mold, contrary to popular belief it's not algae; algae needs light to carry out photosynthesis, and there's precious little of that inside a fuel tank. When the bacteria, which are microscopic animals, which have skeletons, which are abrasive, die their carcasses accumulate on the tank bottom. If this goes on for long enough, the accumulation can become quite deep. I've removed 3/4" thick "bio carpets" from tank bottoms that were contiguous sheets of this material, it's nasty.
Not only can this wreak havoc with the filters, bacteria produce a waste product that is acidic, which can attack metallic tanks. I've seen this process consume a tank bottom aboard a vessel that was just five years old, the inside bottom of the tank looked like the moon's surface, rough and pitted, the tanks had to be replaced. The bio-carpet also retains water against a tank bottom, which can cause poultice corrosion in aluminum tanks. It's a great argument for fiberglass diesel tanks. I've cleaned out 30 year old Hatteras FRP tanks that looked like new after the process was complete, something I can't say about most metallic tanks.
Therefore, if the tank is contaminated in this manner, polishing the fuel may be helpful, however, it's not a long term solution. Additionally, that debris may not be a problem, until the vessel finds herself in a seaway, where the washing machine effect stirs it up, and the fuel filters quickly clog.
Ideally, all fuel tanks should have inspection ports that allow access into each baffled chamber. Building a tank with these adds little cost, adding them after the fact is doable, but of course costs more. Every fuel tank I've ever designed and built includes clean out ports in every baffled chamber for these reasons. Additionally, the ideal tank would also include a water drain well, with a drain valve.
Clean out ports are available as kits (I have encountered some tank cleaning services that will install them, but that's rare, most just do the polishing), those from Sea-Built are reliable and well-designed, and if installed properly are leak-proof, I've used hundreds over the years.
The bottom line is, the dockside polishing service, while potentially useful, isn't s silver bullet for all tank contamination problems. If the tank bottom has a large accumulation of debris, fuel filter clogging will almost certainly continue, and it's likely to occur when the vessel is in a seaway, where this material is churned up by sloshing fuel. In those cases, the tank should be opened, adding inspection ports of necessary, and cleaned out thoroughly.
For such cleaning, if the accumulation is heavy, I've used a hot water pressure washer. This approach requires no solvents, and the interior of the tank need not be wiped down. The area around the tanks needs to be tented and placed under a slight vacuum using fans to extract fumes so they don't enter the boat. The oily water is pumped out of the tank during the wash process and allowed to settle, the diesel residue is sucked off the top and disposed of with fuel/oil waste.
Under no circumstances should oil absorbent pads be used inside a fuel tank, these shed fibers that are invisible when wet; which can accumulate and clog fuel valves, including Racor tandem selector valves, where they are very difficult to isolate and remove, as well as filters.
Dockside polishing services, for the most part, clean the fuel but not the tank. Some claim that their wands and high pressure jets can clean a tank, but the fact is, if they can't enter every baffled chamber this is simply not possible. While there is value to dockside polishing, all filtration is good if it's removing contaminants, if the tanks are heavily contaminated, then the value of cleaning just the fuel is limited.
For older vessels, the accumulation of debris on tank bottoms can be considerable, especially if they sit idle for long periods, and in warm regions, where biological growth thrives. The accumulated bottom debris is usually a mixture of asphaltene, a naturally occurring contaminant in diesel, and the byproduct of water contamination. In the latter case, water supports biological growth, mostly bacteria and mold, contrary to popular belief it's not algae; algae needs light to carry out photosynthesis, and there's precious little of that inside a fuel tank. When the bacteria, which are microscopic animals, which have skeletons, which are abrasive, die their carcasses accumulate on the tank bottom. If this goes on for long enough, the accumulation can become quite deep. I've removed 3/4" thick "bio carpets" from tank bottoms that were contiguous sheets of this material, it's nasty.
Not only can this wreak havoc with the filters, bacteria produce a waste product that is acidic, which can attack metallic tanks. I've seen this process consume a tank bottom aboard a vessel that was just five years old, the inside bottom of the tank looked like the moon's surface, rough and pitted, the tanks had to be replaced. The bio-carpet also retains water against a tank bottom, which can cause poultice corrosion in aluminum tanks. It's a great argument for fiberglass diesel tanks. I've cleaned out 30 year old Hatteras FRP tanks that looked like new after the process was complete, something I can't say about most metallic tanks.
Therefore, if the tank is contaminated in this manner, polishing the fuel may be helpful, however, it's not a long term solution. Additionally, that debris may not be a problem, until the vessel finds herself in a seaway, where the washing machine effect stirs it up, and the fuel filters quickly clog.
Ideally, all fuel tanks should have inspection ports that allow access into each baffled chamber. Building a tank with these adds little cost, adding them after the fact is doable, but of course costs more. Every fuel tank I've ever designed and built includes clean out ports in every baffled chamber for these reasons. Additionally, the ideal tank would also include a water drain well, with a drain valve.
Clean out ports are available as kits (I have encountered some tank cleaning services that will install them, but that's rare, most just do the polishing), those from Sea-Built are reliable and well-designed, and if installed properly are leak-proof, I've used hundreds over the years.
The bottom line is, the dockside polishing service, while potentially useful, isn't s silver bullet for all tank contamination problems. If the tank bottom has a large accumulation of debris, fuel filter clogging will almost certainly continue, and it's likely to occur when the vessel is in a seaway, where this material is churned up by sloshing fuel. In those cases, the tank should be opened, adding inspection ports of necessary, and cleaned out thoroughly.
For such cleaning, if the accumulation is heavy, I've used a hot water pressure washer. This approach requires no solvents, and the interior of the tank need not be wiped down. The area around the tanks needs to be tented and placed under a slight vacuum using fans to extract fumes so they don't enter the boat. The oily water is pumped out of the tank during the wash process and allowed to settle, the diesel residue is sucked off the top and disposed of with fuel/oil waste.
Under no circumstances should oil absorbent pads be used inside a fuel tank, these shed fibers that are invisible when wet; which can accumulate and clog fuel valves, including Racor tandem selector valves, where they are very difficult to isolate and remove, as well as filters.
Bacteria found in our fuel and water tanks need source of energy to develop and grow. Those bacteria, called 'aerobic bacteria', mostly & usually get energy from oxygen of air & water.
However bacteria do need time to multiply to achieve a sufficiently large population by their dividing process then through a chain reaction to have a strong corrosive effect on the surface of the tanks walls.
Therefore by keeping our tanks full of fuel which reduce the volume of air, also by frequently draining off the remaining condensation water & water in fuel, this is depriving them of essential resources then bacteria are no longer being to develop.
However bacteria do need time to multiply to achieve a sufficiently large population by their dividing process then through a chain reaction to have a strong corrosive effect on the surface of the tanks walls.
Therefore by keeping our tanks full of fuel which reduce the volume of air, also by frequently draining off the remaining condensation water & water in fuel, this is depriving them of essential resources then bacteria are no longer being to develop.
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NewbieFromNJ
Senior Member
Good post and very clear, thank you.
Just one more point. I stated in the European Union. Polishing here is a technical element of the specification and operating operations to which the companies specialized in fuel purification are subjected, consisting in centrifuging.
Polishing systems are centrifuges capable of eject suspended water and impurities to one micron size, resulting in the most cleaner fuel. 2011 European Union requirements for 12 months or longer diesel fuel stored correctly at an ambient of 20 C.
For at least the millionth time it seems, running the fuel through filters is not polishing.
Polishing includes centrifuge and commercial polishing of a contaminated tank includes cleaning the tank as OMC described. In fact, it may include several rounds of cleaning as described before returning any fuel to the tank.
klee wyck
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Yes, the fuel was European and reported to contain significant proportion of bio derived fuel. We surveyed the ship and closed on it in April, it sat in Holland for a month and Belgium for two months before being loaded on her transport and spending seven weeks rolling at sea to get home.
We had an excellent survey with a highly skilled and very well equipped surveyor. The survey referred to a pending fuel issue with a recommendation to clean fuel and tanks when we got her home. The fuel tank was less than 1/3 full during these warm day, cool night months.
We also had an excellent contractor (Petroclean)do the work on this issue when we did make it home after the nightmare trip down the Frazer and Straight of Georgia. Seven foot beam seas aggravated the situation. During our delivery trip we plugged and starved out this V10 NA Mercedes at least 15 times. We went through all the filters on board and were hand washing them with diesel from a Gerry can on board after we went through our supply. During this ordeal we never had to crack an injector once. We cleaned or changed the Separs (Racor like on bulkhead primary filter pair), the screen in the glass bowls on engines both main and generator which were plugged solid, and repeatedly serviced one of the two series on engine filters. It is worth noting that the second in the series of two on engine filters remained pristine through the whole affair. We never had to change or clean that one. Good to see.
Petroclean removed the fuel for polishing and then spent considerable time inside of the tank using a high pressure nozzle to clean all compartments with fuel. They could not get physically into all three compartments but they could reach a wand through the holes in the baffles to clean these areas. The steel hull integrated tank is 700 gallons. They took measurements of the whole tank and provided a drawing of it as part of the service for future reference.
I agree with your assessment of this and do not expect to enter these tanks again if I acquire and maintain clean high quality fuel during my ownership of this vessel.
In retrospect, I should have had this service completed before the ship left Holland it seems based on the survey findings and recommendations. Because there was no issue during the sea trial, I did not properly assess the significance of the finding at survey.
HeadedToTexas
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Excellent post.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. NJ. This product works by the same process as oil absorbent pads, I would guess but unlike the potential contamination as suggested above the absorbent media is probably (one would hope) contained sufficiently so as not to further contaminate the fuel. I may have missed it but I didn't see diesel specifically mentioned.
Mr. NJ. This product works by the same process as oil absorbent pads, I would guess but unlike the potential contamination as suggested above the absorbent media is probably (one would hope) contained sufficiently so as not to further contaminate the fuel. I may have missed it but I didn't see diesel specifically mentioned.
Ken E.
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To Steve D'Antonio........I read your articles in Passagemaker magazine for many years and thoroughly enjoyed them. You passed on a lot of knowledge to the readers. Are you presently writing for a magazine or blog?
Heron
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Yup....(excellent post) Likely the black slime issue (Asphaltine). I had it, can be dispersed with the correct chemicals. No issues since (2 years)...
Believe it or not, this filter was still passing fuel (300 hours, 5 years at the point I acquired the boat) and the boat showed no problems. There were 2 other filters between this one and the engine. One of the benefits of having a LARGE capacity primary filter in the mix. There are many fans of the sequential filtering technique...Obviously I am one of them. All the crap is caught there and it's capacity allows continued running. If this was just a Racor between the tank and the engine, I'd have gone broke replacing filters. Asphaltine dispersed and all filters now happy.....Filtering fuel is now the least of my concerns.
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FF
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For a cruiser that simply does not want the engine to stop the simpelest solution would seem a centrifuge setup.
These clean the fuel, well enough for even a modern high pressure injector system.
AS long as the crud is not so heavy that it blocks the supply feed from tank to centrifuge the engine should keep operating.
New smaller a bit cheaper units are being made now so there not just for the big boys any more.
These clean the fuel, well enough for even a modern high pressure injector system.
AS long as the crud is not so heavy that it blocks the supply feed from tank to centrifuge the engine should keep operating.
New smaller a bit cheaper units are being made now so there not just for the big boys any more.
Ken:
Thank you, it's always nice to know when material I've published resonates with readers, this is always my primary goal. I very much enjoyed my time at PassageMaker, a decade under Bill Parlatore's Editorship, where he gave me a free hand to write about any subject I believed worthy.
Since you asked...Presently I write for several magazines and online pub's, I'm the Technical Editor of Professional BoatBuilder, a publication written for the marine industry, but accessible to anyone both digitally and in print. I publish a monthly online "Attention to Detail" column with ProBoat as well, the most recent edition covers infrared pyrometer use, it, and archives, is available at Systems Archives - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine
I write a monthly maintenance column for Cruising World (the current edition carries an article on ELCI shore power circuit breakers, archives are available on line Monthly Maintenance: Caulking | Cruising World), I'm a regular contributor to PropTalk, the current issue Read PropTalk Online - PropTalk includes an article about working effectively with boat yards and the marine industry, and of late I'm writing once again for Ocean Navigator, the last issue carried an articl I wrote about cruising above the Arctic Circle Under power in the frozen North - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2017 and the upcoming issue carries an article about shore power transformers.
Finally, I publish a feature technical article, and a technical photo essay, each once a month, on my own blog at Marine Systems Excellence Ezine | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting (the archives on this site also include hundreds of articles) and weekly tech tips on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/stevedmarineconsulting
So, no editorial moss is gathering on this stone;-)
My apologies, I posted the commercial service company centrifuged the diesel fuel aboard my boat to 1 micron. After reading my order's specifications it appears their process worked down to a coalescence of 0.5 micron. Not a big difference, just want to post here a more accurate information.
Attachments
Yes, I agree !
Fuel Filters Simplified :
Fuel Filters Simplified | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting
Secondary Fuel Filter :
Photo Essay – March 2015 | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting
Diesel Fuel Additives - Part 1 :
Diesel Fuel Additives – Part I | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting
Diesel Fuel Additives - Part 2 :
Diesel Fuel Additives – Part II | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting
Thank you Steve.
It's in the Ocean Voyager issue, which usually comes out in March.
Jbear
Senior Member
Reading the OP I think his problem may be a different one than just dirty fuel. If it is failing because it is sucking air then there is a leak in the draw up from the tank. This will cause the problem reported. If the filters had been replaced because of suspected dirty fuel my guess is they did not get sealed up properly on installation. Ask me how I know....?
Jeff
Jeff
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. J. Yup, could be an air leak like I suggested in post #3 or again, a blocked fuel line. Your "Ask me how I know...." comment tweaked another thought.
I was experiencing a motor shut down at one point where I would bleed the system, motor would run for 20 +/- minutes or so then quit. Got REALLY good and fast at bleeding on our 5 hour run. Traced the problem down to a fuel line (rubber) where the innermost lining had delaminated and was collapsing under lift pump suction. So essentially a blockage which caused an air leak at the Racor. Changed the line and viola!
Mr. J. Yup, could be an air leak like I suggested in post #3 or again, a blocked fuel line. Your "Ask me how I know...." comment tweaked another thought.
I was experiencing a motor shut down at one point where I would bleed the system, motor would run for 20 +/- minutes or so then quit. Got REALLY good and fast at bleeding on our 5 hour run. Traced the problem down to a fuel line (rubber) where the innermost lining had delaminated and was collapsing under lift pump suction. So essentially a blockage which caused an air leak at the Racor. Changed the line and viola!
Jbear
Senior Member
RT- I saw your comment but it seemed like it may have been missed.
I run dual manifold Fram filters and there are a lot of places air can wreak havoc in the fuel delivery. Good thing is you know immediately what has happened when your normal running motor spins down to pure quiet...
I run dual manifold Fram filters and there are a lot of places air can wreak havoc in the fuel delivery. Good thing is you know immediately what has happened when your normal running motor spins down to pure quiet...
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. J. Not a problem. Worth repeating for sure. Hopefully the OP will report back...
Mr. J. Not a problem. Worth repeating for sure. Hopefully the OP will report back...
We all have air in our fuel tanks. Air is drawn in to replace the fuel that we burn. The air is on top and the fuel is on the bottom.
You can't clean diesel fuel (or gasoline) by pouring some magic chemical into tank. You can't clean the tank that way either. You have to remove it and run it through a series of filters. To clean the tank you have to remove the fuel and spray solvent on every surface (or clean the tank manually if there are cleanout ports).
Pay the man or get estimates from some other companies.
My tanks have the pickup near the bottom on the side. Not low enough that they could be used to drain water though.
I can see where it might be a bit safer to have an internal tube from the bottom to the top though.
Trundlebug
Veteran Member
Not wanting to cause an argument, but I disagree.
There are filters, and then there are filters.
Standard particulate filters, as fitted as OEM to most older engines I agree do not polish fuel.
But coalescing filters that remove dissolved and entrained water and moisture content as well as particulates do polish the fuel.
They don't clean the tank of course, but they do polish the fuel.
Centrifuging etc is a way of removing moisture and saving some work for a coalescing filter, but ultimately a coalescing filter will do everything.
Examples of moisture absorbing filters are Racor and Fleetguard, but I'm sure there are others.
Personally I'm staggered at what some posters have paid for fuel polishing. Surely far more than the fuel was worth?
By specifying and installing the correct grade of coalescing filter you can polish your own fuel easily and at very low cost.
My DIY system, using a Fleetguard filter and filter head, electric fuel pump and some fuel hose cost me around $100 a few years ago. Replacement filters are less than $20 each. Now the fuel is up to a good standard the filters last ages, although when I first started I used up two filters getting it there. Hardly in the same expense league as some on here, but maybe my 80 imperial gallons are but a teaspoonfull compared to some.
People who charge $000's to polish your fuel will of course make all sorts of wild technical claims and criticise anyone who does it themselves, but then they would say that wouldn't they, they have a huge amount to lose...
The simple fact of the matter is, fuel bug lives in water and feeds on fuel.
Remove the water content and you remove the habitat for the bug to live in, so you remove the bug.
Proper filters remove water. That's not difficult to achieve yourself, you really don't need to engage the expensive services of a professional who makes it sound complicated.
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