Engine stopped mid passage. Why?

[sunchaser]

Weebles question is not an idle one. Simple drive systems, well designed fuel flow layout, adequate spares and redundant engines are the oft used insurance.

But failures indeed happen, even to the best of well designed and superbly crewed vessels. 27 months ago we were on the Queen Mary 2. She has 4 Wartsilla diesels and two gas turbines. Total connected HP is about 120,000. All engines drive generators which in turn drive 4 external pods with electric motors. The switch gear is to say the least, impressive.

At 1:00 AM one morning the vessel went dead in the water. All except the emergency lights went out. Our trusty IPad with Navionics said we were drifting at about 1.5 knots with the Gulf Current. Numerous assurances came over the speakers saying all was OK but stay in our cabins. This stoppage lasted for about an hour then all came back on and away we went.

The cause for the stoppage was failure of one of the primary transformers. A spare (very large) was on rails nearby keeping warm ready to be slid into place. The QM2s drive system has not been reliable. Rolls Royce has paid tens of millions to Cunard to attempt fixes, not totally successful.

Thus the onboard crew is ready and prepared for the next one. Well, maybe I better buy that spare macerator pump which has been on my spares list for awhile.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I've not made ocean crossing passages. Most of my propulsion failures could have been resolved mid ocean. There have been three that would have crippled the boat necessitating assistance or rescue at sea.

Two crippling failures were both material failure of a soft disc between the engine flywheel and transmission input. There was no possible work around. Even with a spare in hand it would have had to be flat calm to accomplish the change out.

The third was a blown head gasket.

One failure that might have been possible to solve at sea, but very unlikely to happen. The shaft backed out of the transmission end coupling while backing away from the dock. Probably wouldn't happen at sea on passage.

The rest were remedied without assistance.

• Bad fuel or water in the fuel. 3 instances.
• Chaffed fuel line.
• Control linkage failure at the transmission.
• Sea water pump seal failure.
• Overspeed shutdown failed and tripped.
• Battery isolators failed, voltage dropped and killed the computer controlled common rail engines. This one was quite a puzzle. The dash voltmeters never budged. The digital display did not indicate low voltage, it indicated excessive water in the fuel. Sure enough there was some water in the fuel. It took quite a while to find the problem causing the shut down.
• Niad stabilizer failure that threatened to rip out of the bottom of the boat.

In addition to redundancy it is important to have spares, tools and above all knowledge of the boat, her systems and the resourcefulness to find the solution.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

Great thread, great info.

Not a diesel, but I had a 2 stroke OMC that lasted forever. It was 30 years old and looked 50 when I sold the boat. Left me stranded one time, but I was able to limp it home at low speed. Zero electronics on that other than the starter and plugs.

Fast forward, two modern Yam outboards, elect everything. IF I got more than 20-hours on those engines without either one acting up, it was a minor miracle. FI problems, over and over. NONE of which could be addressed while under way. Sold the boat.

The new boat has electric steering. Why? I have no idea. But it's already failed twice. I pull the plugs/connectors and clean em, shoot em, etc and get back on the road. But here's the rub....there is NO interconnect between the engines so if ONE steering side fails you have no idea where that engine is going to POINT. I have heard of guys just about getting tossed out of the boat when one steering unit fails at speed. Well, what the hell was wrong with hydraulic steering and an interconnect? Never had a problem other than a leak and that was easily addressed while at sea.

I only post this because I'm looking forward to buying a boat with a big dumb diesel and minimal electrons flying around the engine room. The more they bolt-on, the more that will fail later on.

 

[Hippocampus]

Still have a seagull on the transom of a square back canoe. An eighth of the moving parts. Not sensitive to what fuel I put into it. I can make parts for it myself in my basement.
Was my father’s. I remember fishing with it when I was in single digits. Will pass it on to my kids. Unlike the plastic parts in my 9.9 merc or the computer in my Suzuki 4 stroke simple and reliable.
Progress isn’t always progress.

 

[AusCan]

Simplicity is a good thing on a boat and most of the time it is directly related to reliability.

Another important factor regarding reliability is knowing your boat. Become familiar with your fuel, cooling and electrical circuits. Do the basic checks daily and know what your temperatures should be. Investigate unfamiliar sounds. Small problems found are easily rectified before they become big problems. Don't wait until your engines stop.

I'm surprised at the number of posts asking about "where does this hose/wire go?" It is good to ask (and sometimes the quickest way), but it's much better to see yourself with your own eyes, and build up your understanding of the complete circuit.


You don't have to be an expert mechanic/electrician. Just spend time at the dock crawling around in the bowels of your boat to get a good understanding of how it is put together. It's much easier than doing it a rough sea with a disabled boat.

 

[rslifkin]

With electronic stuff, electronics on an engine don't concern me much. But electric steering, or electric shift / throttle systems just don't seem to be build robustly and reliably enough for me to be comfortable with them. There's no excuse for it either. Building reliable electronics for fairly simple stuff isn't all that hard.

 

[mvweebles]

Still have a seagull on the transom of a square back canoe. An eighth of the moving parts. Not sensitive to what fuel I put into it. I can make parts for it myself in my basement.
Was my father’s. I remember fishing with it when I was in single digits. Will pass it on to my kids. Unlike the plastic parts in my 9.9 merc or the computer in my Suzuki 4 stroke simple and reliable.
Progress isn’t always progress.

Ah yes, the venerable Seagull. Only 4 moving parts. Unfortunately, one being the operators arm for repeated pull-start.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A technique I use on a new to me boat is to make simple one-line drawings. What serves what? Which goes where? They don't have to be pretty, to scale or use special symbols. The act of making your one-lines will burn into your mind where and what things are. One of the first marine engineers I worked with made all the greenhorns do that. If you don't know how to get started try starting with the fuel system. It's critically important and usually fairly straight forward.

Simplicity is a good thing on a boat and most of the time it is directly related to reliability.

Another important factor regarding reliability is knowing your boat. Become familiar with your fuel, cooling and electrical circuits. Do the basic checks daily and know what your temperatures should be. Investigate unfamiliar sounds. Small problems found are easily rectified before they become big problems. Don't wait until your engines stop.

I'm surprised at the number of posts asking about "where does this hose/wire go?" It is good to ask (and sometimes the quickest way), but it's much better to see yourself with your own eyes, and build up your understanding of the complete circuit.


You don't have to be an expert mechanic/electrician. Just spend time at the dock crawling around in the bowels of your boat to get a good understanding of how it is put together. It's much easier than doing it a rough sea with a disabled boat.

 

[cafesport]

Transmission damper plates have let loose but the engines kept running. Dropped an injector tip on a 6v92 that bent a rod and wiped out a turbo. Came home on the other one. Other boats stumbles and rpm surges at sea were resolved with seamanship or filter changes under way. Current boat has 14k+ hours on luggers with electronic controlled stanadyne fuel pumps and knock on wood no stoppages. I would worry more about a computer controlled lithium battery charge system now than an electronic controlled fuel injection pump so I guess that’s progress.

 

[psneeld]

I hope any Seagull engine proponents (or any ancient engine designs) never argue green in environmental threads.

 

[catalinajack]

Folks, think about the millions of vehicles on the road, all of which are controlled electronically and have been for thirty years. Yet, have we heard about widespread failures of electronic components? Nope. Yes, occasionally, very occasionally someone, car, truck, boat will experience a problem but hardly a reason for concern. I once had to have the injectors replaced on my truck. Soon after leaving the shop, the engine went into limp mode. A computer diagnostic (my own code reader) revealed an open circuit for one injector. Turned out the mechanic had not tightened a wire on one of the injectors. The point is, the code reader revealed the problem. The example cited in another response where a "mechanic" threw $5,000 of parts replacement, just guessing, is merely an example of an incompetent mechanic when it turned out to be a simple harness connection. A code reader would have revealed the open circuit.

Now, the real problem is that some manufacturers have set up their computers such that only a certified mechanic ($$$) can get into the computer to do the diagnostic. John Deere is one. There are many farmers who are not happy with Deere for this reason. There are even bootleg interfaces for getting into Deere computers. Imagine having a combine fail in the middle of a time-senstive harvest, having a propulsion failure, and the nearest Deere factory mechanic is 150 miles away.

I see no data on this. The diesel electronics seen to be rock solid . The failure is far more likely from a belt, pump or hose. Not a computer.

 

[mvweebles]

.... A computer diagnostic (my own code reader) revealed an open circuit for one injector. Turned out the mechanic had not tightened a wire on one of the injectors. The point is, the code reader revealed the problem. The example cited in another response where a "mechanic" threw $5,000 of parts replacement, just guessing, is merely an example of an incompetent mechanic when it turned out to be a simple harness connection. A code reader would have revealed the open circuit.
.....

Was my example. Mechanic was a factory Cummins mechanic. But I think you're touching on the possible problem - marine engines are a relatively small portion of the diesel market, and the mechanics may not be as well trained as those in a garage environment where the engines [mostly] come to them.

Finding a decent mechanic who stays current on modern technologies is difficult at best, at least in the marine environment.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Was my example. Mechanic was a factory Cummins mechanic. But I think you're touching on the possible problem - marine engines are a relatively small portion of the diesel market, and the mechanics may not be as well trained as those in a garage environment where the engines [mostly] come to them.

Finding a decent mechanic who stays current on modern technologies is difficult at best, at least in the marine environment.

Peter

And that's exactly why if you travel far and wide where there many not always be a really good mechanic close at hand, I'd only want engines where it's possible and reasonable for me to obtain my own set of at least basic diagnostic tools for the electronics, a set of service manuals, etc. Having the right tools and information available makes a huge difference in being able to maintain a system and diagnose / fix it when a problem comes up.

 

[Simi 60]

There's going to be a lot more engines failing at sea in the future. These new, electronically controlled engines are unreliable. .

My thoughts as well.

Took a cray boat with an 855 to Espiritu Santo several years ago and we had blue plastic "snowtown barrels" on deck for fuel.
Low freeboard decks were awash during refueling en- route, must have been gallons of saltwater going in the tanks, motor never skipped a beat over the next few months I was aboard.
They can run on vomit.

Obviously we were draining the bowl on the 1000fg's and crud sump in tank, but no motor issue at all.

Ours has had no issues apart from belt driven raw water pump bearing flogging out and collapsing as we anchored.

I now carry a complete straight swap spare.
Plus filters, oil, belts and impellers some copper pipe and fittings for fuel + several meters of various sized silicone hose + clamps.

 

[markpierce]

Only when the fuel tank was empty. Required switching to one of the three remaining tanks.

 

[Lepke]

Vehicles on roads and vessels on the ocean are two completely different considerations. A marine engine needs to be 100% reliable.

My Ford diesel was towed 3 times in a month for the same problem. Bad cam position sensor. 2 faulty sensors. One worked for 3 weeks and one for 3 days. The engine without the electronics is great, powerful and no problems but for sensors. At least $300 each time it went to the dealer for a $15 part.

Unless you have an old car, you don't hear about car problems. Because in most cases a tow truck is available in a few minutes. It's probably fixed the same day. The driver didn't have to worry about sea conditions, going on the rocks, swift currents and all the other things that can happen at sea.

 

[Gabe n Em]

We've had numerous shut downs over the years, mostly in the (older) mainship, where the fuel got stirred up and the filters clogged to the point of stopping an engine. We did have twins and would simply change and re prime on the fly.

I also blew up a transmission once. And blew a hydraulic steering line. I was glad to have twins that day.

To prevent it from becoming a single vs twins debate, let me tell you a quick, true, story. Just last March, I went from Rhode island to Barbados to Cape Verde(Africa) and back to RI in a 42 year old boat with a (single) 42 year old diesel in it. Ok, ok, I'll fess up: this was for work.

 

[skyhawk]

not a diesel but a gas boat....but don't think that would have made a difference in my case
lightning strike on the radio antenna...got into the electrical system...melted the electronic ignition module on the engine.

 

[BruceK]

My thoughts as well.

Took a cray boat with an 855 to Espiritu Santo several years ago and we had blue plastic "Snowtown barrels" on deck for fuel.....

Someone will ask.....

 

[sunchaser]

Electronic engines are the only choice on a new build once above roughly 130 HP. It has been this way for over a decade. So for longer distance cruising on a roughly year 2005 or newer vessel electronic engines seem the norm. BTW, for those of us who follow James Hamilton has there been any mention of electronic engine issues?

 

[Simi 60]

Electronic engines are the only choice on a new build once above roughly 130 HP. It has been this way for over a decade.?

Its so new and shiny

Cummins NTA855-M350 Marine Engine - Brand New - Filter Discounters

 

[AusCan]

my thoughts as well.

Took a cray boat with an 855 to espiritu santo several years ago and we had blue plastic "snowtown barrels" on deck for fuel.

hahahahha

 

[FF]

"Folks, think about the millions of vehicles on the road, all of which are controlled electronically and have been for thirty years. Yet, have we heard about widespread failures of electronic components? Nope."

Most road vehicles sit on rubber tires , so in effect are Faraday cages that do fine with hiding electronics from lightning strikes ..

Faraday cage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Faraday_cage
A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure used to block electromagnetic fields. A Faraday shield may be formed by a continuous covering of conductive material, or in the case of a Faraday cage, by a mesh of such materials. Faraday cages are named after scientist Michael Faraday, who invented them in 1836.

 

[Mako]

Simi, is that 855 a China Cummins CCEC?

 

[Cythera 32]

Had my 1980 GB 32 stop on me in the middle of Vineyard Sound. Took 2 yards to discover there is a solenoid, not the one on the starter, that failed. Engine is a Cummins 6BT 5.9 engine. After the repair, the engine was flawless.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

If a diesel stops mid passage, it's almost certainly a fuel issue.

pete

 

[psneeld]

Another point of view.....


https://www.passagemaker.com/lifestyle/atlantic-anxiety

 

[sunchaser]

If a diesel stops mid passage, it's almost certainly a fuel issue. pete

Or:
Stop solenoid fails
Alternator failure
Aftercooler leak
Oil pump failure
Blown head gasket
Overheat due to a possible half dozen issues
Drift net around shaft
Thrown rod
Dropped a valve or two
Cracked head
Failed oil cooler

I've seen every one of these over 60 years of diesel operation. The most interesting was on a Wartsilla where the machining of several replacement heads was done to incorrect factory specs.

 

[Retriever]

I put about 4000 hours on a single engine Nordic Tug 37 (Cummins 6BTA), much of it in fairly remote areas. I was always worried something would go wrong that I wouldn't be able to fix, but that never happened. I did have to shut the engine down three or four times to deal with problems, but the engine never shut itself down and it never failed to start.

The problems requiring shutdown:

1. Failed, smoking alternator. I shut the engine down, let it cool off, turned the generator on to take over the charging duties, and then continued to my destination. I swapped the alternator when we weren't drifting. Thankfully the alternator didn't seize; that would have been a bigger problem.

2. Control cable clamp loose and transmission stuck in reverse. This caused a nervous few minutes in front of Dawes Glacier with my guests out in kayaks. I figured it out pretty quickly and tightened the clamp and all was well.

3. Coolant hose slipped off right after maintenance. Of course, all was fine at the dock, but as soon as I'm out of the marina (with 2 foot chop and 20 knots pushing me towards shore), I looked in the engine room and saw the coolant spraying everywhere. I dropped the anchor (only had a few minutes before I was on the beach), fixed the hose, and carried on.

4. Engine temp was creeping up at cruise. Sea strainer was clear, so I theorized that some kelp or other object was disrupting sea water flow. I gave it a shot of reverse and shut off the engine for a moment to relieve and suction. One of those solved the problem.

Even though I was never stranded, having the "get somewhere" wing engine on Akeeva is very comforting.

 

[catalinajack]

Lightning strikes, yes, because they happen so very often. And that non-electronically controlled engine in a boat struck by lightning, well, perhaps the starter is fried, or the start solenoids, who cares. Let's all now go out and buy meteor strike insurance.

"Folks, think about the millions of vehicles on the road, all of which are controlled electronically and have been for thirty years. Yet, have we heard about widespread failures of electronic components? Nope."

Most road vehicles sit on rubber tires , so in effect are Faraday cages that do fine with hiding electronics from lightning strikes ..

Faraday cage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Faraday_cage
A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure used to block electromagnetic fields. A Faraday shield may be formed by a continuous covering of conductive material, or in the case of a Faraday cage, by a mesh of such materials. Faraday cages are named after scientist Michael Faraday, who invented them in 1836.