Boating Straight - Page 3

skipperdude · 10-26-2010, 10:43 AM

In my experience copper tubing is fine as long as it is hard mounted with a flex at both ends. (Some sort of flexable hose.)
Sort of like an earthquake flex hose on the gas line mounted to houses in earthquake pron areas.
got to have something to counter the vibrations so it won't vibrate loose.

SD*

-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 26th of October 2010 04:02:48 PM

Tom.B · 10-26-2010, 01:03 PM

I don't think you replied in the correct thread SD>

skipperdude · 10-26-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:

jleonard wrote:

Then they told me I needed copper tubing but I've talked to numerous others that say copper tubing is a maint nightmare

I thought I was on the right page.

SD

*

Tom.B · 10-26-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

GonzoF1 wrote:

Hey y'all,

Sorry to dig up another old thread of mine, but I wanted to touch on this subject again as we are getting ready to pull Skinny Dippin' out for some routine work. I'd like, once again, to ask your opinion based on the pics I am posting. (I found them just the other day. Figured it might help you see my issue.)

I am now back on the side of doing nothing, even though I have just changed sides after seeing the pics. My memory thought the rudder was closer than it appears to be in the pics. Add to the fact that I don't know any other boat but this one. I spoke with someone with way more experience than I and he said, all single-screws wander around. He did qualify it by saying that it is more of a problem with the CHB trawlers because of their smaller rudder, but unless you can make it, and the screw, MUCH bigger, it's going to happen. I won't be able to go dead straight without any helm input very often.

One thing he said to try was to remove the zincs and see if that helps... I will try that in the future. I will also try what others mentioned here and bleed the hydro steering system. Perhaps explore slightly heavier oil in it.

*NOTE* The additions are not quite as thick as the original rudder. 1/16th smaller, or so.

Anyway... chack out the pics... See if I should just leave it alone or cut off the addition(s).

Thanks,
Tom-

Oh... You're right, just not to the "new" question. My mistake.

*

Marin · 10-26-2010, 03:50 PM

So GonzoF1---- what if anything did you decide to do about your rudder?

Tom.B · 10-26-2010, 04:34 PM

I think I am going to leave it alone for now. Chatted with a delivery captain today. He said every single-screw boat he's ever delivered, needs constant input to go straight. That said, he also said that I may have made it worse with the extensions, BUT that the handling I gained at slow speed and in reverse, surely offsets it.

Still, if you have any opinions based on the photos, don't hesitate to express it. I know how reserved you can be sometimes.

Marin · 10-26-2010, 04:47 PM

The only thing I would say is that I think the delivery skipper you talked to is off the mark. We charterd a single-engine GB36 before buying our own boat and it tracked just fine. It had an autopilot but we never used it--- we always steered by hand as we do on our boat. The effects of waves and currents aside, that single-screw GB tracked perfectly. No wandering tendency at all.

Carey on this forum has a single-engine custom lobsterboat and I've never heard him comment on any steering "wander" on his boat. I believe he has hydraulic steering, the GB we chartered had cable-chain steering.

Last summer we talked to a number of lobstermen on Prince Edward Island and while we never talked about steering specifically I did ask them about the handling of their boats when they were empty and loaded, in the rough seas they get, and so on. None of them talked about a need to stay on top of it due to inherent steering wander.

And I've never heard anyone on the GB forum--- and there are a lot of single-engine owners there from GB32s on up to GB42s--- talk about any wandering tendency whatsoever in their boats.

So based on all that I'm not sure I'd put too much credibility in that delivery guy's "constant input to go straight" statement. In wind, waves, currents, sure, all boats will need steering corrections. But if he's saying that all single engine boats wander even in dead calm conditions, I don't go along with that one.

But if your boat's handling is something you can live with and you like the improvement to it's low-speed maneuvering, then do as you're doing.

Tom.B · 10-26-2010, 05:03 PM

Well, perhaps I should qualify that because GB's (and other quality trawlers) have MUCH larger rudders. We were on the hard next to a Eagle and it had a rudder easily twice the size of ours. We have a cheap CHB (Senator), I think the guy was generalizing some, however, my mistake was really changing it before I knew all the facts or given myself enough time to get used to the stock rudder. I still have a few things to check before I start hacking off what I have already committed to.

Have you ever heard of the zincs causing issues like this?

RT Firefly · 10-26-2010, 05:13 PM

Hiya,
** Can't comment on rudder size/design but I very much doubt your zincs have much effect on what you percieve as "wandering".* Leave the zincs on.* Could it be that you are running bow heavy?* THAT will definatly affect straight line performance and contribute to loose tracking.

Marin · 10-26-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

GonzoF1 wrote:Have you ever heard of the zincs causing issues like this?

No, but I haven't heard of a lot of things

I would be surprised if the zincs would cause the rudder to move back and forth unless there's only a zinc on one side.* But my knowledge of hydrodynamics is minimal at best and is confined to pretty basic stuff like how floatplane floats work.* So I'd ask a pro about the zinc thing.* And I think RTF is right--- don't take them off at this point.

A larger rudder can make for a more rapid response to steering input but I'm not sure that size alone is the significant factor in rudder "wander."* I think it's much more to do with design and balance.

*

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 26th of October 2010 06:24:03 PM

rwidman · 10-28-2010, 07:27 AM

I recall reading about an "articulated rudder", where the rudder was in two parts (fore and aft) and it worked well at all speeds.

Perhaps a web search will turn up more information and perhaps this would solve the problem.

Sailor of Fortune · 10-31-2010, 07:06 AM

You shouldn't have "wander" in your steering system at all.
screw boats don't wander!
Either your wander is in the system or its environmental effects on the hull itself(wind/current).

Your boat has high freeboard and a large cabin, if the effects are caused by wind, they would be more pronounced than say a lobster boat such as Careys'. Lobster boats by design are made to "Stay on the gear", meaning that when working a trawl they have to maintain a course while
hauling trawls (more than 1 pot on a groundline). Notice that they all have a relatively deep forefoot, long keel and minimal above deck windage. They don't add articulated rudders and
other goodies to maintain their mission. There is nothing wrong with articulated rudders-but adding them to a pleasure boat for "improved handling" is just plain nonsense.

Find out from a competent source if your steering system has issues, and deal with them if it does.
Your boat will never maneuver as well as a lobster boat but who cares? You want predictable,reliable steering within the parameters of your hull design.

Steve · 10-31-2010, 07:54 AM

Passagemaker Mag. had an article on a trawler with an articulated rudder, I believe Sept 2007. Additional underwater linkeages from the "flap" to the hull were used, not for me.
Steve W.

FF · 10-31-2010, 11:21 AM

I would guess its slop somewhere.

Too much lead on a rudder makes for unstable turns.

Feed in a couple of deg for a slight turn and it tightens and turns more sharply as you go.

If you can create a mild turn , and the boat continues in that radius , the lead is fine.

I would have someone put a large wrench on the top of the rudder , and as you steam slowly, and see if they can wobble the rudder against the steering gear.

Hyd , look for air or a shot steering cylinder .

Cables , just keep looking , an you will see something stick and release , or have slop.
Wih little or no lead a barn door takes GOOD effort at all times, but a balanced rudder will require far less force , showing up play.

Nomad Willy · 10-31-2010, 12:18 PM

I think FF is right on. Been think'in slop has almost got to be the problem for at least a week.
Doug Dupuis,
I saw a picture of a Fales 32 on a brokers page and the Fales had a rudder considerably larger than my Willard. Could that be a stock Fales rudder?
Here is my rudder for reference.

Tom.B · 11-01-2010, 05:25 AM

I really don't think it's a problem with the rudder moving when it shouldn't be. I mean, I guess it COULD be, but I can make small adjustments with the rudder and feel them. The problem comes in correction of drift away from "setting the helm" to keep us going straight ahead, then, after a few small adjustments, she'll start to go slightly off course (be it from wind, current or whatever) and a small adjustment to port (just a few degrees on the wheel) to try and correct may go too far, but then it takes a full turn to starboard to correct it back. At that point, the back and forth begins all over again until I can again settle her back down to a somewhat straight course. It's a zigzag pattern that I have some concerns with a) in tight quarters b) when people are following me and I look like a dill-weed

The wheel is very easy to turn to starboard and there is a bit of resistance when turning to port. I have to assume that it's because of the prop wash for my anti-clockwise screw. Hydraulic steering system.

Now, that being said, we had a marina party this weekend and the previous owner was around. I did have a chat with him and he said that it is something he dealt with too. On one hand, it did help me come to term with it. I have been thinking that the change was due to the extensions I put on... Apparently not. So I won't be cutting them off as previously planned.

On the other hand, the question still remains as to what exactly is going on. I will take a crack at bleeding the system, but I think it's just "the way those boats are" and I just need to get used to it. I at least know I didn't cause it and won't be chasing my tail to undo it only to find it didn't fix the issue.

Sailor of Fortune · 11-01-2010, 07:09 AM

I don't think your problem is in the water (rudder). It sounds like an air problem to me. If it drifts off to port for a second or two, a full turn of the helm to starboard should not be needed to correct.What kind of system is it?

Tom.B · 11-01-2010, 07:46 AM

Beats me... Books are down at the boat

Phil Fill · 11-01-2010, 08:59 AM

It does not sound like its the rudder leading edge or the rudder it self as you said it has gotten worse since you bought the boat?* Since you messed with the rudder had it gotten worse?* How do you know the rudder is straight?* Rudder indicator?* When we first got the boat it tended to drift to starboard. *To make the boat go straight the rudder had to be turn slightly, so I just reset the rudder indicator so it shows the rudder is straight.* Now it tracks straight solid according to the rudder indicator?* *****

*
So if your rudder post square post so you can get something on it to move back and forth.* Do you have an emergency tiller that looks like a big tire wrench thing to use to see if there is any play?* Many trawler have them!* We have a manual emergency tiller that fits over the top of the square rudder post.*

*
Is there play in the helm or is the helm solid?* If a three line system they are easy to bleed by turning the helm hard over back and forth to the stops and hold, which pouring fluid in the to helm to keep full.* If a two line system then have to actual undo a fitting at the piston, turning back and forth and adding fluid, which is more messier, but there is not that much fluid in the lines. Some pistons have a bleeder valve. Emergency Tape really works well even when the line is slippery and holds under pressure.* Great stuff to have around for temporary fix.*

*
Our hydraulic line developed a leak as it was run under the batteries and over the years, battery acid dripped on it.* Used plain domestic water pressure fit connection to fix.****

*

Tom.B · 11-01-2010, 09:28 AM

Wow.. Lots-O-Questions:

Has (it) gotten worse since you bought the boat? Since you messed with the rudder had it gotten worse? --- I wasn't sure until I talked to the PO. Apparently, it was like this prior to adding the extensions. My big mistake was adding the extensions only after owning the boat for a few months. I didn't have enough experience to make that call, nor did I look elsewhere for a problem. However, I now don't think it's the problem. I haven't checked the hydro steering system yet, but I don't think it's that either. My belief is that the single-screw CHB trawlers in general do this, but I don't know for sure until I hear from more of them. I just don't think there are that many of them here. I'm in a marina with 400 sailboats and only one other single-screw trawler with regular visiting owners. That's part of the reason we are relocating to Carolina Beach... MORE POWERBOATS... but that is a story for another thread.

How do you know the rudder is straight? Rudder indicator? --- We do have a rudder indicator. And while underway it DOES read about 10 degrees (or is it 20... DANG... I can't remember) steering to port, that is expected with an anti-clockwise screw wanting to walk the stern to port and steer the bow to starboard. Resetting the gauge won't fix anything except make it lie to me about the actual position of the rudder.

Do you have an emergency tiller that looks like a big tire wrench thing to use to see if there is any play? --- Yes. Not a bad idea to use it to look for play. It will surely give me more lever-arm that a pair of Channel-Lock pliers. Although, it looks nothing like a tire iron. It looks like a giant tiller

Is there play in the helm or is the helm solid? --- It seems solid. Well, solid turning it to port, but it's far easier to turn starboard. Again, propwash is causing this I think.