orcas attacks... which protection for rudder and fins on trawlers?

[balder8]

Hello every body, Merry Christmas and Happy new year!Fair winds, following sea!

I have decided to relocate my trawler Balder VIII from south atlantic spain ( Andalucia) to french atlantic coast ( Royan) where I have a berth and further north later, I hope, Brittany, Channel Islands, UK, North Sea as a new playground etc.
When I left the Med last summer from Valencia with a safe passage in Gibraltar, I opted to the safiest way to avoid bloody orcas attacks: motor in less than 20meters depths and travel daylight only with some "accessories" aboard like firecrackers,pingers ( here, different green lobbies and politician have forbidden use of these firecrackers and so on, considering orcas attacks are like a "revenge" of these "friendly" animals against nasty and rich humans destroying our small planet and firecrackers noises dangerous for orcas !!!. I can tell you that other official recommandations like stop engine, put the sails down ( hands up?) are always finishing by a total disaster: rudder distroyed, sometimes, fiberglass boats sinking etc..and tow by the Salvamiento rescue ship in a Portuguese or spanish marina..

On some forums, different DIY options were found: one of them was to add some spikes to rudders to help orcas learning that is is not fair to sink a gentle family cruising with a peacefull mind along the coast for holidays...of course, doing their best to avoid harming the orcas. I bought myself some of theses polyurethane spikes ( 2,5cm high - 1 inch).

I plan to fit these spikes on my very strong polyurethane fins from Key power. I am very confident and happy with this stabilizer system and always found here in Europe a very friendly and professional support from Mr Dean Yule, now Kobelt Keypower. I wonder how fix it in this material, screw or glue with some sikaflex for underwater use??? Add a piece of thin wood with epoxy or other material on which spikes should be glued or screwed?

Considering the rudder, I have a steel hull and do not expect to see the shaft seriously bent but we know now that orcas are pushing the rudder, sometimes too much distroying the limits and hydraulics system. So not so good and in a need as well of protection on this steel rudder.

We know here that some of PNW mariners are familiar with orcas. Did they encountered this kind of attacks? And how did they protect their yachts/boats?

Below a picture of the polyurethane plates I want to install covering more or less 70 to 80% of the fin surface.

 

[Bmarler]

In the PNW we don’t really see any attacks from orcas. I’m certainly not an expert, but I think it may be due to primary diets of the pods. resident orcas feed primarily on salmon, transient pods feed more on mammals like seals, sea lions, etc…
In other areas, orcas will capture other whales for food. Maybe it’s those pods that are attacking boats too?

 

[Delfin]

Hello every body, Merry Christmas and Happy new year!Fair winds, following sea!

I have decided to relocate my trawler Balder VIII from south atlantic spain ( Andalucia) to french atlantic coast ( Royan) where I have a berth and further north later, I hope, Brittany, Channel Islands, UK, North Sea as a new playground etc.
When I left the Med last summer from Valencia with a safe passage in Gibraltar, I opted to the safiest way to avoid bloody orcas attacks: motor in less than 20meters depths and travel daylight only with some "accessories" aboard like firecrackers,pingers ( here, different green lobbies and politician have forbidden use of these firecrackers and so on, considering orcas attacks are like a "revenge" of these "friendly" animals against nasty and rich humans destroying our small planet and firecrackers noises dangerous for orcas !!!. I can tell you that other official recommandations like stop engine, put the sails down ( hands up?) are always finishing by a total disaster: rudder distroyed, sometimes, fiberglass boats sinking etc..and tow by the Salvamiento rescue ship in a Portuguese or spanish marina..

On some forums, different DIY options were found: one of them was to add some spikes to rudders to help orcas learning that is is not fair to sink a gentle family cruising with a peacefull mind along the coast for holidays...of course, doing their best to avoid harming the orcas. I bought myself some of theses polyurethane spikes ( 2,5cm high - 1 inch).

I plan to fit these spikes on my very strong polyurethane fins from Key power. I am very confident and happy with this stabilizer system and always found here in Europe a very friendly and professional support from Mr Dean Yule, now Kobelt Keypower. I wonder how fix it in this material, screw or glue with some sikaflex for underwater use??? Add a piece of thin wood with epoxy or other material on which spikes should be glued or screwed?

Considering the rudder, I have a steel hull and do not expect to see the shaft seriously bent but we know now that orcas are pushing the rudder, sometimes too much distroying the limits and hydraulics system. So not so good and in a need as well of protection on this steel rudder.

We know here that some of PNW mariners are familiar with orcas. Did they encountered this kind of attacks? And how did they protect their yachts/boats?

Below a picture of the polyurethane plates I want to install covering more or less 70 to 80% of the fin surface.

Seal bombs should fix that problem.

 

[Steve1.0]

So harpoons are off the table? Just askin?

 

[Tator]

Sorry, can't help other than to say that in 33 years of boating in Alaska waters I've never seen or heard of an orca attack in this area. I've been involved in humpback whale research for many of those years and was once surrounded by a mega pod of over 60 transient/resident orcas for over two hours who just ignored us.

My only physical contact interaction was with a female/male couple when we were at anchor. One early morning I had noticed a bull's fin outside of our salon window about 15' off of the boat. I walked out into the rear cockpit to get a better look and glanced down at the swim platform to find that the female was resting all of it's 6' wide head on the platform and gazing up at me! Some hilarity ensued in me trying to get my wife's attention down in the stateroom. No damage was done. Sounds like the pods in your area have much different behavior.

Tator

 

[balder8]

Sorry, can't help other than to say that in 33 years of boating in Alaska waters I've never seen or heard of an orca attack in this area. I've been involved in humpback whale research for many of those years and was once surrounded by a mega pod of over 60 transient/resident orcas for over two hours who just ignored us.

My only physical contact interaction was with a female/male couple when we were at anchor. One early morning I had noticed a bull's fin outside of our salon window about 15' off of the boat. I walked out into the rear cockpit to get a better look and glanced down at the swim platform to find that the female was resting all of it's 6' wide head on the platform and gazing up at me! Some hilarity ensued in me trying to get my wife's attention down in the stateroom. No damage was done. Sounds like the pods in your area have much different behavior.

Tator

Yes indeed, from 2020, we saw more than 500 attacks and /or interactions from Gibraltar to North Brittany with a maximum near Portugal and several boats sunk. A very good friend of mine attacked by a group of orcas near the entrance of Barbate marina saw them turning around the yacht and looking yeys in the eyes at him and his wife when they were breathing at the surface. He ask to be towed, no more rudder and autopilot system damaged. During the tow with the spanish life boat, orcas were still bumping and pushing his yacht... This is now a serious concern for all boaters siling from the north to go to Med or back from Med to UK, France, The Netherlands etc...

 

[SteveK]

Yes indeed, from 2020, we saw more than 500 attacks and /or interactions from Gibraltar to North Brittany with a maximum near Portugal and several boats sunk. A very good friend of mine attacked by a group of orcas near the entrance of Barbate marina saw them turning around the yacht and looking yeys in the eyes at him and his wife when they were breathing at the surface. He ask to be towed, no more rudder and autopilot system damaged. During the tow with the spanish life boat, orcas were still bumping and pushing his yacht... This is now a serious concern for all boaters siling from the north to go to Med or back from Med to UK, France, The Netherlands etc...

yacht must have that hull sonar cleaner or just the right depth sonar to attract them, turn it off in deep water.
I was in a dingy among feeding orca and never had a concern, each time they surfaced they confirmed my location.
I am sure boats getting hit are emitting a signal they do not like.

 

[Action]

Orca Rip Huge Hole in Boat and Swim Away With Rudder in Terrifying Attack

https://www.newsweek.com/orca-attack-hole-boat-swim-away-rudder-portugal-1757389

 

[KnotYet]

Orcas' brains are significantly larger than humans' and equally complex. It isn't
a great leap to consider that the new behaviors being observed are due to their
having perceived the yachts as a threat they've decided to do something about.
What that threat is may be unclear to us and their reaction may be inappropriate.

 

[SeaDogAK]

It is a learned behavior, for whatever reason. PNW cruising would change significantly if our orcas ever learn this behavior.

 

[Bmarler]

Orca Rip Huge Hole in Boat and Swim Away With Rudder in Terrifying Attack

https://www.newsweek.com/orca-attack-hole-boat-swim-away-rudder-portugal-1757389

They were just playing…
I wonder if they have a rudder collection in their orca living room.

 

[soin2la]

Let’s be realistic.
With a comfortable estimate of 50,000 killer whales world wide and a suspected count of up to 80,000, 15,000 inhabit the North Atlantic. Fewer than a couple dozen from one ecotype (Iberian orcas), have interacted with vessels in a fairly confined area, where only three boats have been abandoned, beached or sunk.

As a land traveller, you would simply avoid any areas where muggers are known to be. So your best option at sea is the same thing and no one can do more than generalize, or speculate about what is going on. Great social media fodder though.

As to that shipboard spike belt, I shudder to think how a pissed of killer whale might react to being handed that toy; perhaps we will read of a documented case where they lived up to their common name.

Watch Orca Scientist Monika Wieland Shields’ take on it in a non-hysterical manner.
https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/experts-call-nuance-people-view-orcas-101062065

PNW cruising would change significantly if our orcas ever learn this behavior.

As for PNW and BC cruising, more than 1,400 individual mammal eating killer whales were identified in Georgia Strait in 2023. Gawd help us.

 

[Pascall]

As far as I know, it is only sailboats that are being attacked.

Pascal.

 

[bshanafelt]

just don't provide the orca's with the internet - then they will coordinate worldwide.

 

[Solstice1981]

Orcas

Here in the Exhumas I have only seen attacks on sail boats in the news. Have Trawlers also been a Target near Gibraltar?

 

[balder8]

Here in the Exhumas I have only seen attacks on sail boats in the news. Have Trawlers also been a Target near Gibraltar?

Yes, several morocan fishing boats, some large dinghys also and during last summer in Med not to far from the Strait. The truth is that many yachtsmen cancel their project going north from south and vice versa. The only safe recommandation is to stay within the 20 meters depth. This is not very easy considering the swell on the portuguese coast, nets and fog sometimes. From north brittany to La Corogne, you cannot avoid navigation quite offshore. From Gibraltar to Cape Saint Vincent, more easy but only daylight... We definetly need an efficient and reliable deterrent.

 

[soin2la]

Yes, several morocan fishing boats, some large dinghys also and during last summer in Med not to far from the Strait. The truth is that many yachtsmen cancel their project going north from south and vice versa. The only safe recommandation is to stay within the 20 meters depth. This is not very easy considering the swell on the portuguese coast, nets and fog sometimes. From north brittany to La Corogne, you cannot avoid navigation quite offshore. From Gibraltar to Cape Saint Vincent, more easy but only daylight... We definetly need an efficient and reliable deterrent.

Gosh. I wonder if these highly intelligent animals, which communicate amongst themselves, have had this same discussion and decided THEY needed to come up with an efficient and reliable deterrent.

 

[Mambo42]

It has indeed been well documented. When we were lying in Corfu, 2 years ago, next to us was a 60' catamaran sailing yacht with a full time captain onboard. He told me he had lost both his rudders due to orca's when he was near Gibraltar. He made it safely to port and had new rudders installed.

What to do about it ? I have no clue, but from what I read it is mostly sailing vessels that get attacked, not motor vessels. Could be wrong of course.
What would I do if I would be sailing there ? I understand they like to eat seals and other fat mammols. Kind of difficult to invite my late mother in law, but she would have made the perfect distraction during an attack.

 

[Action]

Lol

 

[CharlieO.]

So are the sailboats getting attacked while undersail? Are they getting attacked if at the same rate if they are using the engine for propulsion?

 

[kthoennes]

This conversation is making me glad that I only have to worry about deadhead trees and occasional cast-off water-skiing tow ropes in my props.

 

[CharlieO.]

This conversation is making me glad that I only have to worry about deadhead trees and occasional cast-off water-skiing tow ropes in my props.

I always remind myself we have it pretty easy boating here on Lake Champlain too. I do keep an eye out for Champ though.

 

[JDCAVE]

Hello every body, Merry Christmas and Happy new year!Fair winds, following sea…Below a picture of the polyurethane plates I want to install covering more or less 70 to 80% of the fin surface.

For the record, I’m a former salmon fisheries biologist, now retired. I have attended Orca symposiums put on by the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). I have also some professional background in using a DC electric field to deter seal predation on salmon caught in gillnets. This study was published in a North American Journal of Fisheries Management, available upon request.

So with that preamble, I would advise against modifying your “fins” and rudder:

1) I don’t think it would deter the whales. If they had a mind to attack your fins and rudder, they will. As alluded above, they are highly intelligent and will figure out a way to destroy them anyways, if so motivated.

2) Those spikes will surely compromise the fins and rudder, with unknown consequences.

The only method I know that works for certain is “lethal deterrence”. I realize that is not possible in most circumstances and probably illegal in most jurisdictions, but that is the only known method that works for certain. A few have suggested “seal bangers”. I can tell you from experience they DO NOT even work on seals. They would likely make the whales more aggressive. In British Columbia there is a herring roe fishery and sea lions dive over the cork line of seine nets to catch and eat the pursed herring. 100 or more sea lions can be inside those nets and the damage to gear and catch is extreme. Seal bangers do not deter this activity and only serve to upset the environmentalists.

I might suggest you travel in a small flotilla at speed if that is at all possible. Perhaps if one vessel is attacked, the others could assist with hazing.

I wish I had better news, but I don’t.

Jim

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I guess the best advice sounds like don't get a sailboat.

 

[AlanT]

As a land traveller, you would simply avoid any areas where muggers are known to be. So your best option at sea is the same thing and no one can do more than generalize, or speculate about what is going on. Great social media fodder though.

That might work on land, but not in the Med/Atlantic. There have been a number of attacks in the vicinity of Gibraltar. (You can't get in or out of the Med to the Atlantic coasts without transiting the Strait of Gibraltar).
~A

 

[Delfin]

For the record, I’m a former salmon fisheries biologist, now retired. I have attended Orca symposiums put on by the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). I have also some professional background in using a DC electric field to deter seal predation on salmon caught in gillnets. This study was published in a North American Journal of Fisheries Management, available upon request.

So with that preamble, I would advise against modifying your “fins” and rudder:

1) I don’t think it would deter the whales. If they had a mind to attack your fins and rudder, they will. As alluded above, they are highly intelligent and will figure out a way to destroy them anyways, if so motivated.

2) Those spikes will surely compromise the fins and rudder, with unknown consequences.

The only method I know that works for certain is “lethal deterrence”. I realize that is not possible in most circumstances and probably illegal in most jurisdictions, but that is the only known method that works for certain. A few have suggested “seal bangers”. I can tell you from experience they DO NOT even work on seals. They would likely make the whales more aggressive. In British Columbia there is a herring roe fishery and sea lions dive over the cork line of seine nets to catch and eat the pursed herring. 100 or more sea lions can be inside those nets and the damage to gear and catch is extreme. Seal bangers do not deter this activity and only serve to upset the environmentalists.

I might suggest you travel in a small flotilla at speed if that is at all possible. Perhaps if one vessel is attacked, the others could assist with hazing.

I wish I had better news, but I don’t.

Jim

Jim, I've read that the behavior has spread to other pods. Do you know if this is true, and if so, do we know if there is cross contact with pods globally? Thanks for the expertise.

 

[Mambo42]

From what has been in the news over the last couple of years I understand it is a group of around 12 Orca's living in the area of Gibraltar. The assumption is that the leader of the group (a female Orca named Gladys) most likely had a run in with a fishing vessel or other boat, which hurt her.
Since that time she has been attacking vessels and have been teaching the other Orca's in the group how to attack. During the last couple of attacks they have spotted also the younger Orca's attacking rudders.

You can find numerous videos online of the attacks by this group of Orca's. Some people say that if you stay close to land you won't be attacked, but is that true ? Also, if you would stay close to land you will run into other problems, one being the massive waves at the Portugese coast (20 - 30 mtr).
So what is the wise decision ?

 

[Benthic2]

Could you add a bottom rudder mount braced off the keel ? They could still bite the rudder but it would be sturdier.

some how put a cage around your rudder ?

Give all on board a 15 foot long spear and claim self defense.

George Costanza would suggest putting golf balls in the blowholes.

I wonder if a 20 foot cable hung from your rail every 3 feet or so around the back 10 feet of your boat would trail behind you enough that it would make the rudder harder to get to.

The legality of carrying ammunition can get tricky, but a powerhead or bangstick might be an option as well. If you aren't familiar it is a 3 or 4 inch cylinder that contains a shotgun shell or a handgun bullet. It is screwed on to the end of a Hawiian Sling Spear ( handheld spear launched with surgical tubing....if you need further info DM me ) When the projectile hits a fish the bullet discharges. A speargun may be easier to explain to the authorities but you could also mount it on a long pole like your boat hook. Now you are messing with the mamal protection act and more so legally this is probably not feasible in foreign waters.

 

[SteveK]

some how put a cage around your rudder ?

repurpose shark tank

If you want sea view...........buy a boat !

Used to say why look at the view, be the view.

 

[Mambo42]

Used to say why look at the view, be the view.

That is a good one, never heard it, but from now on will remember it.