Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-04-2020, 10:12 AM   #1
Guru
 
South of Heaven's Avatar
 
City: Sharon, Ma
Vessel Name: Slow Lane
Vessel Model: 2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,112
BAD captain

https://boattest.com/article/captain...fire-killed-34
__________________
Advertisement

South of Heaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 12:45 PM   #2
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,130
I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats. I used to keep my dink on davits over my forward hatch. After it was pointed out here on TF that my egress was now restricted, I devised plan B for dink storage on the swimstep.

My fwd steps are held in a latch, not hinged, so they can be repositioned and used to assist in exiting thru the fwd hatch.
__________________

__________________
My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al

@DeltaBridges - 25 Delta Bridges in 25 Days
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 01:47 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Medic's Avatar
 
City: Hilton Head, SC
Vessel Name: Mimi's Oasis
Vessel Model: North Pacific 49
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 94
On "Mimi's Oasis" the forward hatch is not directly above the bed, but rather aft of it by a foot or more. It would be incredibly difficult to exit through under even non-emergent conditions, and impossible for all but those who were both incredibly agile and had very good upper body strength.

A friend who has been with us on both Mimi's Oasis and Dix-Sept (Nordhavn) designed and built a stainless steel ladder that folds up into the "well" of the hatch. A decorative piece of plasticized material with velcro edges makes the hatch look almost invisible from the cabin, and nothing changes from outside. A small triangular handle dangles about 4 inches below the hatch space and is easy enough to grab for someone standing on the foot of the bed.

Make sure nobody is standing below, yank on that handle and the ladder falls, pushes aside the decorative piece and five sections cascade down and LOCK into position. The ladder is then rigid, terminates on the floor and provides egress. It takes about 1-2 minutes to re-stow the ladder, but so what. In a real emergency that is irrelevant, and in drills it is time well spent.

Even if the hatch was directly above the bed, perhaps on another boat, I think I would have my friend build a similar, but shorter ladder.

I would hope everyone actually practices getting out of a forward hatch. If you lack the upper body strength to pull yourself up and out, consider getting some sort of ladder.

At least on my boat the forward hatch would be the ONLY egress for those aboard who were in either of the two cabins or either of the two heads. It is an incredibly horrible thing to think of being trapped, perhaps at night, with no way of escaping.

Some might think "Well, if fire was licking at my butt I'll pull myself through that hatch", but guess what, you won't.

Helluva way to go.
Medic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 02:10 PM   #4
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport north of Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,735
Had not considered that the generally unused Bomar hatch on the cabin top of my downeast style boat is an escape hatch as well as a ventilator and skylight. One can stand on the bed and be far enough out the hatch to easily exit.
Attached Thumbnails
DSC01011.jpg  
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 02:59 PM   #5
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,409
On Hobo, the forward hatch is over the bed but it is still too high to pull ourselves up and out. We never really thought much about it till the Conception sank. As a suggested on the Forum, we bought a collapsable ladder for $70. As with all our safety gear, hopefully weíll never need it.
Attached Thumbnails
21F402FD-5D18-4848-9B46-EBAC15188FC5.jpg   F4C34BE5-584D-40BD-88B0-A331E5F18959.jpg  
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:02 PM   #6
Guru
 
timb's Avatar
 
City: Oriental N.C.
Vessel Name: true heading
Vessel Model: marine trader 38 dc
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 528
I wander if I can push hard enough to rip the canvas cover that is holding my hatch from opening . Maybe I should move the snaps to above the base
timb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 02:53 AM   #7
Veteran Member
 
DC36Monk's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Dream Catcher
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
On Hobo, the forward hatch is over the bed but it is still too high to pull ourselves up and out. We never really thought much about it till the Conception sank. As a suggested on the Forum, we bought a collapsable ladder for $70. As with all our safety gear, hopefully weíll never need it.


Where did you get it?
DC36Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 04:08 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Spinner's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Spinner
Vessel Model: 2003 Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 337
I bought a very similar ladder for exiting the forward hatch (too high to get out without a ladder). I saw picture of a Fleming with a similar ladder that was built it. I contacted Fleming and was told that most of their boats have the folding ladder as shown, and only one model had the built in ladder, and it is created in-house.
__________________
Regards

Sue
42 Nordic Tug Spinner
Spinner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 08:17 AM   #9
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC36Monk View Post
Where did you get it?
Amazon. The price has gone up.
Attached Thumbnails
83E4B540-1C43-42D4-824C-51D0594FC689.jpg  
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 08:19 AM   #10
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by South of Heaven View Post
This post makes a very good point.
Until now I had the attitude that I'm guessing many had... this situation is a terrible example of what can go wrong on a commercial vessel and something should be done so it doesn't happen again. What took way to long for me is that it applies equally to recreational vessels!
I feel bad that as a volunteer USPS Vessel Safety Examiner, I didn't make the recreational boater connection sooner and without this posts provocation.
Thanks guys... I got the message now and will take some appropriate action to pass it on the fellow examiners to include with their other discussion items with owners.
Many experienced boater, even many here on TF, are pretty vocal about how useless USPS / USCG Aux Vessel Safety Checks are and that would not allow a VSE aboard. I think some of these safety related discussion are possibly more important that simply checking whether boat owners carry the required equipment. The discussions helps encourage the proper mindset re: safety vs just having the right equipment to avoid a summons and fine. Safety goes WAY beyond just having the right equipment.
THANKS AGAIN
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 10:27 AM   #11
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,023
I think the thing to take away from this is how if any of the major items in the "rule of threes" had not happened this wouldn't have even made the news. It really was a very easy thing to have at the very least had smoke/fire detectors in working condition. I feel that was the major thing that would of prevented this tragedy. The "roving watch" requirement is a good idea .. but crew can fall asleep and that needed to be planned for.

Make sure you have adequate smoke and CO detectors!
HOLLYWOOD
hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 03:41 PM   #12
TF Site Team
 
City: Westerly, RI
Vessel Name: N/A
Vessel Model: 1999 Mainship 350 Trawler
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats.
To me there were really a few key issues that should have been addressed:

1) The number of electronic devices (phones, tablets, cameras, go-pro's) and their batteries demands for electricity have slowly grown over the years. I doubt the electrical system was ever upgraded to accomodate that.

2) The location of where those electronic devices were being charged.

3) Lithium Ion batteries. :|

4) The vessel owner should have never placed a bunk below the auxilliary escape hatch. That should have been an open space with a vertical ladder and adequate lighting, along with a safety debriefing that advised of its location and use.

#4 is really key, as it is my understanding that most didn't know that hatch was there, or how to find it in the dark and smoke.
Shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 04:30 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
This post makes a very good point.
Until now I had the attitude that I'm guessing many had... this situation is a terrible example of what can go wrong on a commercial vessel and something should be done so it doesn't happen again. What took way to long for me is that it applies equally to recreational vessels!
I feel bad that as a volunteer USPS Vessel Safety Examiner, I didn't make the recreational boater connection sooner and without this posts provocation.
Thanks guys... I got the message now and will take some appropriate action to pass it on the fellow examiners to include with their other discussion items with owners.
Many experienced boater, even many here on TF, are pretty vocal about how useless USPS / USCG Aux Vessel Safety Checks are and that would not allow a VSE aboard. I think some of these safety related discussion are possibly more important that simply checking whether boat owners carry the required equipment. The discussions helps encourage the proper mindset re: safety vs just having the right equipment to avoid a summons and fine. Safety goes WAY beyond just having the right equipment.
THANKS AGAIN
There are so many safety equipment and emergency considerations that are not required by law but are still essential for ageing (and young) rec boaters like us. We could start a thread of important safety items and plans that go above and beyond the simplistic USCG/State requirements. I bet many here on TF have installed equipment and made contingency plans for their safety. I'd sure like to hear what others have come up with as a plan.

For example, I felt that having smoke detectors in all areas including my inverter cabinet and ER cameras to view while underway were important. While I have dealt with some false smoke alarms, I have also been alerted to ER smoke (fried alternator) and inverter smoke (fried inverter) through these systems. Now I'd never have a boat without them.

Pilots are always taught to foresee the problems and have a plan before they materialize. I try to carry that mentality into boating but am sure I've overlooked issues in the process, like when I positioned my dink over my fwd hatch.

I look fwd to hearing that others have planned for and how they've address it.
__________________
My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al

@DeltaBridges - 25 Delta Bridges in 25 Days
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 04:37 PM   #14
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
I think the point about ensuring adequate egress from all cabins is often overlooked on many pleasure boats. I used to keep my dink on davits over my forward hatch. After it was pointed out here on TF that my egress was now restricted, I devised plan B for dink storage on the swimstep.

My fwd steps are held in a latch, not hinged, so they can be repositioned and used to assist in exiting thru the fwd hatch.




I think the ultimate is to actually climb out of the designated escape routes, both you and your spouse, so you know exactly what's involved, and whether you can actually do it. I know of one route on our boat where it wouldn't surprise me if I couldn't get out, and it would surprise me if my wife could get out. So I'm expecting we will need some sort of a ladder.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 04:39 PM   #15
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 10,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by timb View Post
I wander if I can push hard enough to rip the canvas cover that is holding my hatch from opening . Maybe I should move the snaps to above the base
There is a company that makes hatch covers that attach to the lexan and so they donít have snaps going into the deck. The cover goes up and down with the hatch. They are a white plastic. But they donít do anything for leaky hatches like a canvas cover. Sorry, donít remember the name of the company.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 04:57 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
City: Santa Barbara
Vessel Name: TBD
Vessel Model: Californian 34
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 39
I am going to hold my most thoughts for now. I just want you all to know, The name of this thread be, "Freak Accident with tragic results"

My first job in Santa Barbara in the late 80s I was the 2nd Captain.
My 1st full time Job was on the sister ship and is what made it possible for me to move to Santa Barbara. I was the 2nd Captain and I worked directly under JB.

I can assure you he was far from a "Bad Captain" In fact he is one of the safest Captains around.

This freak accident could have happened while tied up at the dock. Remember, NOONE got out of the huge entrance or the escape hatch. I believe most if not all perished quickly by lack of oxygen.

The future will change when it comes to regulations and this is a good thing. I mean look how much we get searched at an airport for each battery we take onboard. Anyone remember Galaxy Note battery issue?

Anyway, JB is a good man and So is GF of T Aquatics.

I am deeply saddened for all 34 who perished as I am for their friends and family. I can assure you this is a very heavy load for any person to carry and JB will have to deal with that along with all the legal issues that come is way.

Tragic for all barley stats the depth of it.
SeaRow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 05:00 PM   #17
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,130
When I worked for the FAA, they'd send us back to Oklahoma City to the Civil Aero Medical Institute (CAMI) for survival, ditch and emergency egress training every 4 years. They have an old airplane fuselage that has been modified with glycerin smoke generators and they'd make you exit in zero visibility. That was, pardon the pun, quite an eye opener!!

As important as it is to know and practice the exit process, it's also helpful to add an element of urgency to the drill to challenge the crew. Maybe wear a blindfold and have someone yelling "GET OUT, SMOKE!" and barking orders and questions to simulate the actual environment on shock and confusion during an emergency egress.

Then have a drink over the debrief and figure out how to make it better next time.
__________________
My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al

@DeltaBridges - 25 Delta Bridges in 25 Days
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 05:38 PM   #18
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 10,556
As to it being a freak accident, sorry I donít buy it. It was no accident that there was no roving watch. That was a lack of leadership. The configuration of the boat is a completely different matter, but not assigning a watch or insuring that the watch is carried out is on the captain, plain and simple. That was not an accident. He may be your good friend, but he screwed up. We donít know why he screwed up but he did, it wasnít an accident.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 05:39 PM   #19
Guru
 
AlaskaProf's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma, WA & Ashland, OR
Vessel Name: SEEADLER
Vessel Model: RAWSON 41
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
To me there were really a few key issues that should have been addressed:

4) The vessel owner should have never placed a bunk below the auxilliary escape hatch. That should have been an open space with a vertical ladder and adequate lighting, along with a safety debriefing that advised of its location and use.

#4 is really key, as it is my understanding that most didn't know that hatch was there, or how to find it in the dark and smoke.

IIRC, it wasn't really an escape at all. In addition to the near-impossible access from below, it exited inside a cabinet in the galley which was the original area of involvement.


Not entirely sure whether to regard the captain as culprit or simply another victim, but criminal negligence has no meaning if it can't be applied to someone in this case.
AlaskaProf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2020, 06:01 PM   #20
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,023
Being a previous Santa Barbara resident I was shocked to see the accident happen, Truth Aquatics was known as a very good operation. As the Captain always takes responsibility everyone wants to put this on his shoulders. The vessel may have been equipped correctly with fire alarms and suffered an equipment failure, there may have been a person standing watch that fell asleep. If there was a fire event due to lithium batteries that could of produced absolutely toxic fumes that incapacitated everyone below prior to the crew being alerted to the fire.
In a event as this someone has to be the blame so deserved or not the Captain is that person in this case.

I hope as time and court cases proceed reasons why this happened will come to light and everyone learns form this tragedy.
HOLLYWOOD
__________________

hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×