Winterization fluid

[Comodave]

One possibility in the short term could be to drain the water system and use bottled water. I believe you said that you would shower ashore so other water consumption would be fairly small.

 

[paulga]

One possibility in the short term could be to drain the water system and use bottled water. I believe you said that you would shower ashore so other water consumption would be fairly small.

Keep freshwater pump on, open all faucets until no water comes out. There would still be water remaining in the lines, p trap, etc. Can I use an air compressor or vacuum to blow these water out of faucets?

If not, I would fill AF to the line following DM's post, but I have not figured out how to shut off water inlet hose to the water heater

The tubing wrenches arrive tomorrow. If I can remove the nut and find proper plugs to the tubing, its done. It's still easier life with tap water running for washing dishes and hands

 

[Wxx3]

Paul appears to be a new boater, or just new to trawler size boat and is exercising extreme caution. Kudos.

The following is for boats left in the water year round.
My boat(s) do not get winterized unless you count the airvents to engine room are covered leaving standing air (uncirculated) in the ER. Water tanks and most plumbing is below waterline. I also use my boat year round and want it ready to go.
The outside air temperature this morning is around 32*F, the ER temp is 54*F. I know this as I have remote monitoring with thermostats in various boat locations, one being ER.
The ER air temp is maintained by the body of water it sits in which around here is about ~55*F. Notice the unheated ER temp is close to the water temp not the outside air temp.
NYC water temp shows to be ~50*F. Do you know the temp of your unheated ER?
I have to ask if winterizing is necessary to the extent being discussed every year?

Exactly my experience also, even in Alaska with extended periods near Zero F. Water in the harbor with ice on top is just a thin layer of 28 to32F ice. The water the boat is floating in, is still much warmer than freezing.

And to be changing antifreeze in engine and gen to something else to winterize is the most senseless thing I have heard in a long time.

Folks, sometimes less is better.

 

[twistedtree]

I just want to be sure we are talking about the same things here, because there is a lot of potential confusion...


I don't think Paulga is talking about changing the anti freeze in the engine and gen. If he is, then stop now. That's not needed. Hopefully he's just talking about winterizing the raw water cooling system for each engine? And some or all of the fresh water system?


Paulga, can you confirm?


And also to be clear when talking about "antifreeze", we are talking about non toxic, propylene-glycol, possibly with some alcohol included. Under no circumstances should automotive "coolant" type antifreeze be used, or anything containing ethylene glycol. Those are toxic and shouldn't be dumped in the ocean, and certainly not put in the fresh water system.

 

[paulga]

Yes, the AF in my posts refers to the pink fluid sold at 3.89 at Lowe's or 6.99 at wm. Not the Prestone fluid in the closed coolant system. So I put "winterization fluid", not "antifreeze" in the title to avoid confusion.

I just want to be sure we are talking about the same things here, because there is a lot of potential confusion...


I don't think Paulga is talking about changing the anti freeze in the engine and gen. If he is, then stop now. That's not needed. Hopefully he's just talking about winterizing the raw water cooling system for each engine? And some or all of the fresh water system?


Paulga, can you confirm?


And also to be clear when talking about "antifreeze", we are talking about non toxic, propylene-glycol, possibly with some alcohol included. Under no circumstances should automotive "coolant" type antifreeze be used, or anything containing ethylene glycol. Those are toxic and shouldn't be dumped in the ocean, and certainly not put in the fresh water system.

 

[paulga]

I hope you are correct that the engine and water lines will be fine in NYC zone without any winterization precautions, even with extended power outage. However I'm not sure about it. It's also important to know the correct steps of winterization .

Exactly my experience also, even in Alaska with extended periods near Zero F. Water in the harbor with ice on top is just a thin layer of 28 to32F ice. The water the boat is floating in, is still much warmer than freezing.

And to be changing antifreeze in engine and gen to something else to winterize is the most senseless thing I have heard in a long time.

Folks, sometimes less is better.

 

[Comodave]

The problem with not winterizing is that if the various things freeze it is too late to go back and winterize things after they burst…

 

[twistedtree]

I hope you are correct that the engine and water lines will be fine in NYC zone without any winterization precautions, even with extended power outage. However I'm not sure about it. It's also important to know the correct steps of winterization .

I tend to agree with you, having lived in the NYC and New England areas my whole life.


Any outside fixtures WILL freeze. So any hose spigots, outside sinks, swim showers, etc. definitely need to be winterized.


My next priority would be interior fresh water lines and fixtures that are more exposed to exterior temps. This will be very boat specific depending on where the pipes run, and what areas of the boat are coldest, and how good and dependable your heating system is.


Of least concern would be engine raw water systems. First, salt water freezes at a lower temp than fresh water. Plus, intakes tend to be deep in the water, and hoses, strainers, engines, and mufflers (all the things that hold raw water) on the interior, typically in the ER. So the question becomes what temp can you maintain in the ER, or anywhere else that you have raw water like HVAC systems, water maker, etc. Again, it will be very boat specific. I would be least concerned about the raw water system UNLESS by ER or other equipment space is subject to freezing.


I suppose you could monitor the temps in these spaces, and if they start to get dangerously low, then treat with the pink stuff. But you would have to be in a position where you can keep a close eye on it.

 

[SteveK]

having lived in the NYC and New England areas my whole life

Twisted, so you are not down under, but in NYC area? Hmmm OK

 

[ranger58sb]

Keep freshwater pump on, open all faucets until no water comes out. There would still be water remaining in the lines, p trap, etc. Can I use an air compressor or vacuum to blow these water out of faucets?

If not, I would fill AF to the line following DM's post, but I have not figured out how to shut off water inlet hose to the water heater

When we do winterize, we use compressed air for the fresh water system.

1) Open the water heater drain, let it "empty".
- Our water heater maker manual says if residual freezes, it wont hurt anything; steel tank will be fine. (Yours might be different.)
2) Attach compressor to dock water inlet, blow away.
- Don't bother to exceed rated PSI of your dock water pressure regulator
3) When substantially empty, close the water heater drain.
4) Open and close hot/cold spigots/faucets back and forth, furthest to closest, closest to furthest... a few times... until all you get from each is a mist
5) Let the system rest a bit (have a beer or whatever)
6) Restart the compressor and repeat step 4 a few more times
7) End by opening all spigots/faucets, so the system it totally open, and let the mist blow from them all a bit more

Don't forget interior and cockpit showers, exterior washdowns, anchor washdown, etc etc etc

When we're serious about it, after all that... we disconnnect the freshwater pump inlet and outlet, use the pump itself to draw an ounce or two of pink through (and then out of) the pump. (You may not want/need to do this step if living aboard.)

WE DO NOT INJECT POTABLE (PINK) ANTIFREEZE INTO OUR FRESHWATER SYSTEM. (It would take about 3 years (hyperbole) of flushing to clean that out...)

If it helps, when we do the AC systems, we use a transfer pump to inject pink. Happens we use Groco fittings, or TRAC makes replacement lids for Groco strainers, to attach a garden hose from transfer pump. The transfer pump will force pink right through our AC raw water pump and thenceward (?) throughout the rest of the system.

Turn pump on, feed it with pink, watch pink outflow from each AC-related thru-hull. Takes about 10 minutes just for the winterizing part.... although I add a bit more time because I also clean the strainer and put in a clean basket at the same time.

-Chris

 

[paulga]

Water lines concern is a related topic, it's discussed in post 25-30

I ordered 8 gallons AF from wm, will do the engine and Genset next month

I tend to agree with you, having lived in the NYC and New England areas my whole life.


Any outside fixtures WILL freeze. So any hose spigots, outside sinks, swim showers, etc. definitely need to be winterized.


My next priority would be interior fresh water lines and fixtures that are more exposed to exterior temps. This will be very boat specific depending on where the pipes run, and what areas of the boat are coldest, and how good and dependable your heating system is.


Of least concern would be engine raw water systems. First, salt water freezes at a lower temp than fresh water. Plus, intakes tend to be deep in the water, and hoses, strainers, engines, and mufflers (all the things that hold raw water) on the interior, typically in the ER. So the question becomes what temp can you maintain in the ER, or anywhere else that you have raw water like HVAC systems, water maker, etc. Again, it will be very boat specific. I would be least concerned about the raw water system UNLESS by ER or other equipment space is subject to freezing.


I suppose you could monitor the temps in these spaces, and if they start to get dangerously low, then treat with the pink stuff. But you would have to be in a position where you can keep a close eye on it.

 

[paulga]

Thanks. This is different from the previous approach. So you remove all water from the lines , without filling AF to the lines. Are the faucets left open? Or it doesn't matter?

What compressor is good for that? I think it would be bulky. I'm living aboard, so I don't need to blow the whole system. I could blow the supply lines to the transom shower and sundeck if I could separate the lines like discussed in post 25-30. There are a washer dryer and a sink on the sundeck. I placed a small heater under the sink, but it'd be best to blow the lines.

When we do winterize, we use compressed air for the fresh water system.

1) Open the water heater drain, let it "empty".
- Our water heater maker manual says if residual freezes, it wont hurt anything; steel tank will be fine. (Yours might be different.)
2) Attach compressor to dock water inlet, blow away.
- Don't bother to exceed rated PSI of your dock water pressure regulator
3) When substantially empty, close the water heater drain.
4) Open and close hot/cold spigots/faucets back and forth, furthest to closest, closest to furthest... a few times... until all you get from each is a mist
5) Let the system rest a bit (have a beer or whatever)
6) Restart the compressor and repeat step 4 a few more times
7) End by opening all spigots/faucets, so the system it totally open, and let the mist blow from them all a bit more

Don't forget interior and cockpit showers, exterior washdowns, anchor washdown, etc etc etc

When we're serious about it, after all that... we disconnnect the freshwater pump inlet and outlet, use the pump itself to draw an ounce or two of pink through (and then out of) the pump. (You may not want/need to do this step if living aboard.)

WE DO NOT INJECT POTABLE (PINK) ANTIFREEZE INTO OUR FRESHWATER SYSTEM. (It would take about 3 years (hyperbole) of flushing to clean that out...)

If it helps, when we do the AC systems, we use a transfer pump to inject pink. Happens we use Groco fittings, or TRAC makes replacement lids for Groco strainers, to attach a garden hose from transfer pump. The transfer pump will force pink right through our AC raw water pump and thenceward (?) throughout the rest of the system.

Turn pump on, feed it with pink, watch pink outflow from each AC-related thru-hull. Takes about 10 minutes just for the winterizing part.... although I add a bit more time because I also clean the strainer and put in a clean basket at the same time.

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Twisted, so you are not down under, but in NYC area? Hmmm OK

Neither, really. I live in Vermont in the US, but grew up outside NYC until my early 20s. I've been in New England ever since.

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks. This is different from the previous approach. So you remove all water from the lines , without filling AF to the lines. Are the faucets left open? Or it doesn't matter?

What compressor is good for that? I think it would be bulky. I'm living aboard, so I don't need to blow the whole system. I could blow the supply lines to the transom shower and sundeck if I could separate the lines like discussed in post 25-30. There are a washer dryer and a sink on the sundeck. I placed a small heater under the sink, but it'd be best to blow the lines.

All those outside fresh water fixtures should be blow out or have antifreeze run through them ASAP. I too prefer compressed air. Whether you use compressed air or antifreeze, you will have to isolate the winterized plumbing from whatever plumbing you want to keep using while on the boat. That will likely be the hardest part of the project installing valves, etc, but you will only have to do it once then it will be done for future years.

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks. This is different from the previous approach. So you remove all water from the lines , without filling AF to the lines. Are the faucets left open? Or it doesn't matter?

What compressor is good for that? I think it would be bulky. I'm living aboard, so I don't need to blow the whole system. I could blow the supply lines to the transom shower and sundeck if I could separate the lines like discussed in post 25-30. There are a washer dryer and a sink on the sundeck. I placed a small heater under the sink, but it'd be best to blow the lines.

Yes, we remove water from all the lines, no antifreeze required. Yes, I do leave the faucets open after blowing, but I suspect it's not really necessary at that point.

Our compressor is an old small 120VAC plug-in model, Craftsman I think. We don't usually leave it on board, since it does household duty too. There might be some that run on batteries now (if so, Milwaukee would match our battery family, for example) and wouldn't be a bad thing to have on board.

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Drain, blow air, 100 RV potable fluid. Heat wraps on cold hoses and pipes at low points or near entrance/exit for those that need to be used. The electric ones draw little amps. Stuff freezes at night. If living aboard decide which head you will use (if any), which lines need to stay open. Which tank you will use. Put heating element in that tank. Wrap to extent possible. Don’t don’t fully fill. Avoid using holding tank although it’s less likely to freeze than fresh water. Use every thing daily.
Hydronic heat is wonderful. We use it even when reverse AC would work at night. It’s exceptionally quiet and a dry even heat. Circulates the air throughout the boat as well.
If you blow air after draining and do two flushes winterizing fluid taste and color is gone. There aren’t full tanks so it takes a little amount of time. If air is unavailable use several flats of bottled water for drinking and cooking until it’s gone. The stuff doesn’t affect quality of showers or cleaning use.
Shrink wrap is wonderful in the winter. Even the translucent acts as a hot house.
If specing a high lat boat it would be metal. Fully insulated . Standpipes and seachests. A strip of close cell foam in them. Even on the hard I’m concerned about through hulls typically leave them open with bronze wool in the hole. Don’t like marelon. Even on Al. Brittle when really cold.

 

[paulga]

Is this compressor what you refer to?

What adapters are needed to connect the compressor to the water lines?

Yes, we remove water from all the lines, no antifreeze required. Yes, I do leave the faucets open after blowing, but I suspect it's not really necessary at that point.

Our compressor is an old small 120VAC plug-in model, Craftsman I think. We don't usually leave it on board, since it does household duty too. There might be some that run on batteries now (if so, Milwaukee would match our battery family, for example) and wouldn't be a bad thing to have on board.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

Is this what you refer to?

What adapters are needed to connect the compressor to the water lines?

Not exactly, but looks like it'd work. Ours is probably 25-30 years old, and the output hose is fixed... not a separate coupling. And our tank is a completely separate unit... that I've never actually had to use. (Only got the extra tank in case I might have needed to inflate a tractor tire waaaaayyyy out in the yard we had then, further than a 300' extension cord could reach.)

Adapters just depend on what's on the end of the hose that leads from the compressor. Something that fits the hose end, and gives you a (probably female?) garden hose thread at the other end so you can attach it to your (probably male?) dock water inlet. Generally available from McMaster-Carr or similar if your local hardware store doesn't have it.

Edit: If you have battery-powered tools on board, you might look at what's available that uses the same batteries. In our case, looks like Milwaukee makes serious 18VDC compressors, and even a smaller 12VDC "inflator" that would maybe work... if it'll run continuously...

Latter, for example: https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-El...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413736087938&psc=1

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/2475-20

-Chris

 

[Turtle Blues]

2c worth: Bucket head from Home Depot. Open faucets, hold hose over end with hand or painters tape in place. Vacuum out lines then reverse hose and blow out. Close seacocks, open and empty strainers, fill with AF if you desire. I empty and disconnect pumps and tanks. Don't like even RV AF in the potable system.

 

[Larry M]

If you use a compressor, don’t exceed 50 psi. 35 psi is even better.

If you have shore side water hookup, you can use an RV blowout adapter. It has a schrader valve and the male hose threads. You can get them online or at any rv parts store for less than $10.

 

[paulga]

"2) Attach compressor to dock water inlet, blow away"

Is the dock water inlet nozzle that has garden hose male threads, you can connect dock water hose to for continuous water supply?

My boat has two such inlets, one is next to the transom shower (shown below), the other one is next to the power reception sockets. Does it work if I blow one after the other?

Not exactly, but looks like it'd work. Ours is probably 25-30 years old, and the output hose is fixed... not a separate coupling. And our tank is a completely separate unit... that I've never actually had to use. (Only got the extra tank in case I might have needed to inflate a tractor tire waaaaayyyy out in the yard we had then, further than a 300' extension cord could reach.)

Adapters just depend on what's on the end of the hose that leads from the compressor. Something that fits the hose end, and gives you a (probably female?) garden hose thread at the other end so you can attach it to your (probably male?) dock water inlet. Generally available from McMaster-Carr or similar if your local hardware store doesn't have it.

Edit: If you have battery-powered tools on board, you might look at what's available that uses the same batteries. In our case, looks like Milwaukee makes serious 18VDC compressors, and even a smaller 12VDC "inflator" that would maybe work... if it'll run continuously...

Latter, for example: https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-El...hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584413736087938&psc=1

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/2475-20

-Chris

 

[paulga]

If you use a compressor, don’t exceed 50 psi. 35 psi is even better.

If you have shore side water hookup, you can use an RV blowout adapter. It has a schrader valve and the male hose threads. You can get them online or at any rv parts store for less than $10.

If 35psi works, my Ryobi one+ 18v tire inflator should probably work?

 

[paulga]

This tool is new to me. Do you mean to connect the hose to the dock water inlet nozzle using painters tape to seal the connection?

2c worth: Bucket head from Home Depot. Open faucets, hold hose over end with hand or painters tape in place. Vacuum out lines then reverse hose and blow out. Close seacocks, open and empty strainers, fill with AF if you desire. I empty and disconnect pumps and tanks. Don't like even RV AF in the potable system.

 

[Mac G]

Cannot comment on how many gallons you need for your engine and genset as I have different models, but for the freshwater system I blow the whole thing out with compressed air - no antifreeze, no flushing in spring, no aftertaste to contend with.

I drain the tanks and HW heater into the bilge and pump that water out separately while using that water to give the bilges a good freshwater washdown. Rather than burn out my bilge pumps I drain that water by removing my depth sounder transducer plug while hauled and let it all drain into the boatyard parking lot (it is just freshwater - have clean bilges, no oil).

Then I set the pressure on my compressor to max out at same pressure as the FW system, in my case 40 psi. That is important because you could otherwise blow out seals if you just brought your compressor from another project that needed 120 Psi for something else!

Pressurize the system and then go around one-by-one and open each fixture and faucet to force the water out of the lines until it starts spitting air. Close that one and on to the next fixture and so forth until all have been done.

I then go back and open and leave open all fixtures and leave the drain plug in the pressure pump tank out and open as well.

 

[Turtle Blues]

No, just hold the hose over the end of the faucets. It is a vacuum cleaner head that snaps onto their 5 gallon pail. The hose can be reversed to blow. Advantage is that you can't over-pressure connections you can't see. Hoses clamped onto hard tubing etc.

 

[Larry M]

If 35psi works, my Ryobi one+ 18v tire inflator should probably work?

Probably not. It’s about cubic feet per minute (cfm) mostly The volume is what pushes the water out not the psi. Think about moving 4-5 cubic feet per minute through your water system at 35 psi vs your Ryobi at less than 1 cfm. You want to keep the psi below your system working pressure so you don’t blow any fixtures or hoses apart.

 

[paulga]

For washer dryer combo that does not have a faucet, how do you dry the water lines out?

No, just hold the hose over the end of the faucets. It is a vacuum cleaner head that snaps onto their 5 gallon pail. The hose can be reversed to blow. Advantage is that you can't over-pressure connections you can't see. Hoses clamped onto hard tubing etc.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Mine have the supply and discharge lines connected under the galley sink where I can disconnect them. I can also pull the WD forward enough to reach the hose connections if necessary. This is one of the things that varies a lot from boat to boat.

 

[ranger58sb]

"2) Attach compressor to dock water inlet, blow away"

Is the dock water inlet nozzle that has garden hose male threads, you can connect dock water hose to for continuous water supply?

My boat has two such inlets, one is next to the transom shower (shown below), the other one is next to the power reception sockets. Does it work if I blow one after the other?

I think I mis-spoke earlier. Our dockwater inlet is female garden hose threads. So our dockwater hose attaches -- female GHT to the dockside spigot, male GHT to our boat inlet.

And it happens right next to it, we have a washdown spigot with male GHT.

I can't tell what yours are, from the pics. It would be not uncommon to have an inlet and then a separate outlet too, latter for washdown or some such... like our setup... so if you have two "things" in close proximity you may have something like that too.

And then they may be attached on the same cold water hose line... or they may be on separate lines.

If they're on the same line, it probably won't matter which you use to attach a compressor, but... the dockwater inlet could well have a pressure regulator on it... and the washdown spigot likely won't.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

For washer dryer combo that does not have a faucet, how do you dry the water lines out?

When I winterized last time, I just disconnected the hot and cold hoses that lead to the washer/dryer... at our water distribution manifold end... and they drained.

But the instruction manual for our new W/D covers that. Two ways, IIRC. One is to start a load with water turned off, something like that. Haven't tried to do ours in either of those those two ways yet, so I'm a little hazy on what the manual says.

-Chris