Older Boat Question

[Fleming]

One other comment, and this isn't specific about Burr - I actually have not had any dealings with them. But I think the comments about how everything will be fine since Burr is selling the boat is just bat-**** crazy. I would never, under any circumstances, place that much blind faith in any broker or dealer no matter how much I like and/or trust them

Burr isn't just a yacht broker. They also run impressive service yards, the main Fleming service yards where many owners have their Flemings serviced. All new owners get a two week training course on operations and maintenance of their new Flemings at the Burr facilities. They work hand in hand with the manufacturer and know the boats well. There's a very good reason why you don't often see used Flemings listed for sale by brokers other than Burr.

 

[Blissboat]

I'm pretty sure the cheapest way to own a boat is to buy a good example of a marquis brand boat and keep it in good condition. For the most part, you will resell it for what you paid for it, minus the upgrades. And you get to use the boat from Day 1 - not spending a bunch of time and money in the yard, chasing repairs, etc.

Unless you're someone who likes projects as much as boating, I generally agree with the above strategy.

 

[Nepidae]

We have an '86 with a lot of life left in her.

Hobbs meters show under 1800hrs on the 2 FL 135 engines.

Just finished an 8yr Great Loop and IF I was interested, she'd be ready to go again.

Have a good survey done on the whole boat and if it passes that, enjoy.

 

[Simi 60]

Burr isn't just a yacht broker. They also run impressive service yards, the main Fleming service yards where many owners have their Flemings serviced. All new owners get a two week training course on operations and maintenance of their new Flemings at the Burr facilities. They work hand in hand with the manufacturer and know the boats well. There's a very good reason why you don't often see used Flemings listed for sale by brokers other than Burr.

I agree with Twisted tree.

I'm following the rebuild of a boat here in Oz that has been " meticulously maintained" for decades by one of the "best" boatbuilding firms in Australia - so says everyone.

Now that they are looking under the "lipstick" we get to see the pig
As an ex boatbuilder myself I'm appalled at the real condition this vessel is in.
Seems to me there has been little addressing actual issues in her past, just slap on more lipstick.

Unless I am actually witnessing the work being done I have little faith in work done these days - the pride has gone, now it's all about the $$

Of course, the yard you mention may be different.

 

[bowball]

Burr is highly respected.

I imagine it will be solid, though I haven’t looked at the photos. For that vintage there have been meaningful upgrades, starting from 3208 to Cummings, which is the biggest change.

What might be necessary to budget though is the teak decks or some portion of them but for a boat of that value it’s not a huge percentage item.

One nice upgrade beyond the usual electronics is the davit to a steelhead 1000.

There are many improved/fancier items in the newest boats like fuel manifolds, monitoring systems, different toilets and showers, induction stoves, etc. they change them but the hull.

 

[twistedtree]

Burr is highly respected.

I imagine it will be solid, though I haven’t looked at the photos. For that vintage there have been meaningful upgrades, starting from 3208 to Cummings, which is the biggest change.

What might be necessary to budget though is the teak decks or some portion of them but for a boat of that value it’s not a huge percentage item.

One nice upgrade beyond the usual electronics is the davit to a steelhead 1000.

There are many improved/fancier items in the newest boats like fuel manifolds, monitoring systems, different toilets and showers, induction stoves, etc. they change them but the hull.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think it would cost to replace the real decks on that boat?

 

[jjorgenson3]

I did my fore decks and it was 8k in materials and 10k in labor. About 18’ by 12’.

 

[Comodave]

Burr isn't just a yacht broker. They also run impressive service yards, the main Fleming service yards where many owners have their Flemings serviced. All new owners get a two week training course on operations and maintenance of their new Flemings at the Burr facilities. They work hand in hand with the manufacturer and know the boats well. There's a very good reason why you don't often see used Flemings listed for sale by brokers other than Burr.

That is my understanding too. I would not just take their word but I would take their word over 98% of brokers.

 

[bowball]

Just out of curiosity, what do you think it would cost to replace the real decks on that boat?

All decks, guessing $50k to $60k plus at a top place? Obviously depends on labor rate. Mexico would definitely be cheaper.

 

[fgarriso]

If you can get the records from 1992 forward and everything has been serviced and kept up to date then I would not be afraid of it. Fleming is known for high quality work. Just check to make sure you can reach everything in the engine room. Make sure you get a surveyor the has done Flemings before.
Contact Bur Yacht Sales (410) 798-5900.

 

[twistedtree]

All decks, guessing $50k to $60k plus at a top place? Obviously depends on labor rate. Mexico would definitely be cheaper.

Ok, I was thinking $50k, and thought I might be high. I expect a Steelhead crane, installed, would be another $50k, perhaps more. So two things and you have spent 20% of the asking price. And electronics update could be another $50k for nothing fancy.

My point is not about this specific boat, because I know virtually nothing about it. My point is that you can spend a lot of money really fast on refit projects, so it’s really important to be sober and objective about what you are taking on.

Experienced owners know that there are always more projects than meet the eye, projects always take more time, never less, and they always cost more, never less.

 

[tiltrider1]

Ok, I was thinking $50k, and thought I might be high. I expect a Steelhead crane, installed, would be another $50k, perhaps more. So two things and you have spent 20% of the asking price. And electronics update could be another $50k for nothing fancy.

My point is not about this specific boat, because I know virtually nothing about it. My point is that you can spend a lot of money really fast on refit projects, so it’s really important to be sober and objective about what you are taking on.

Experienced owners know that there are always more projects than meet the eye, projects always take more time, never less, and they always cost more, never less.

I always say, when you start one project, you’ve start five.

 

[bowball]

But it’s doubtful all the teak needs to be done. Aft and fore decks, side decks (which are covered), fly bridge. And the core.

I see plenty of that vintage 55’s in BC and most have the original cranes, with very happy owners.

But there’s a reason new ones are close to $3mm.

 

[bowball]

Also, I was thinking Canadian dollars too! Sorry!

 

[slowgoesit]

Am I the only one who is wondering why BOTH engines required rebuilding on a 1992 build boat?

At the time of rebuild (2015, according to the ad) the engines were only 23 years old . . . Both engines requiring rebuild is not generally an example of random mechanical failure.

I suppose it's possible both engines failed because of a single, isolated human error failure, for example starting both engines with the cooling water seacocks closed, but I'm just speculating.

IMHO, it is more likely evidence of poor overall maintenance or lack of attention to detail with respect to the mechanical aspects of the boat. If that is the case, there could be lots of potential time bombs from poor/lack of maintenance . . . = $$$$

Without more information (like detailed work orders/invoices on the "rebuilds" we're just whistling in the wind!)

I would want a VERY extensive survey, by a Unicorn, . . sorry, I meant to say a competent qualified professional surveyor. Might have better luck finding a unicorn though . . . .

 

[tiltrider1]

I really can’t tell anything by the listing. At first blush it looks like too good of a deal.

Cat 3208TA’s at 435 HP are not knOwn for longevity if run hard. At 375 HP they are known to last a long time.

I can’t say run because the only red flag is the price. I can say proceed cautiously.

 

[bowball]

I really can’t tell anything by the listing. At first blush it looks like too good of a deal.

Cat 3208TA’s at 435 HP are not knOwn for longevity if run hard. At 375 HP they are known to last a long time.

I can’t say run because the only red flag is the price. I can say proceed cautiously.

Running hard is on sport fishing boats though, not trawler speeds.

 

[Insequent]

I started to look at Flemings a while back, around 2011 from memory. I noted a few things. Firstly, early ones were a bit shorter:
F50 11 1985-1990 #18 last hull
F53 17 to 1992 #33 last hull
F55 206 as at winter 2014 hull #229

Secondly, they dropped the Cat 3208's for Cummins engines around year 2000. I didn't want Cats, and didn't want to spend $1m as import to Australia added 15% to the sticker price as well. So I didn't continue to seriously consider buying one.

At the time it seemed to me that Burr were the price-makers, managing (manipulating?) prices. They were the dominant USA broker and to me there was not as much variation of price for condition given we all know that how a boat was maintained is the real driver of what a boat is worth. Brands often try to manage the market, and there are pro & con for it.

Here is a graph of the data I had, up until 2014 when I stopped collecting it.

I've not looked at the listing the OP is considering, but price to me is about as expected. Also expected would the the expenses for deferred maintenance that would be inevitably found.

 

[Kapn]

Am I the only one who is wondering why BOTH engines required rebuilding on a 1992 build boat? .

Is it possible that hours were high after 23 years and the owner wanted peace of mind?
How many hours have been put on them since then? Where have they traveled?

These forums are maddening when there’s a conspiracy floating every time money is put into a nice boat.
Get a good survey and congratulations on the next step!

 

[tiltrider1]

Is it possible that hours were high after 23 years and the owner wanted peace of mind?
How many hours have been put on them since then? Where have they traveled?

These forums are maddening when there’s a conspiracy floating every time money is put into a nice boat.
Get a good survey and congratulations on the next step!

The listing said something like 2900 hours. That would be very low time for Cat 3208's. On the other hand, 3208's are know for blowing head gaskets if they get hot. Possible that an impeller failed and the result was a blown head gasket that turned into an engine refresh. As someone one else once said, one man's paint job is another man's overhaul.

I don't think there is any conspiracy theory going on. The boat appears to be priced much better than one would expect. This means one should pay attention. I don't think any one is saying run, just procced cautiously.

 

[Simi 60]

. On the other hand, 3208's are know for blowing head gaskets if they get hot. Possible that an impeller failed and the result was a blown head gasket that turned into an engine refresh. .

$100 is cheap insurance
Probe on exhaust elbow has shown rapid increase in water temp and saved us twice.

https://engineguard.com.au/shop/

 

[Max Simmons]

You can buy 15 of the used 55' for one used 78!

 

[Southern Boater]

$100 is cheap insurance
Probe on exhaust elbow has shown rapid increase in water temp and saved us twice.

https://engineguard.com.au/shop/

I’m about to fit this unit myself. Did you consider a probe for the raw water pump cover plate as well?

 

[Kapn]

I’ve spent time on a lot of Flemings so out of curiosity and because this vintage might be personally attainable one day I asked a Fleming owner if he knew about the boat. He said he thought it was 2900 hours since it was rebuilt in 2015. No mention of how many hours before rebuilds. He said he’s seen this boat and knows it’s done the loop twice since 2015. He kept reiterating to call Burr.
I’m not that curious.

 

[ronobrien]

2 1/2 years ago I bought a 1973 GB36 which needed a LOT of work (less now), for a very good price. I am able to do that work myself and I enjoy it. It all depends on what you are looking for in a boat and in life. The Fleming is a beautiful boat and that is not old.

 

[sunchaser]

The F55s do NT lend themselves to easy ER maintenance especially with the "wide" 3208s. The move to Cummins straight sixes decades ago was a big improvement for getting at things, but still not easy.

So a failure of some sort, whether due to an inattentive owner of hard running is easily explained IMHO given poor ER access. As mentioned earlier, detailed records as to what-why-where-when should be available and shed light on the 3208s.

Now, given the F55s ER space Achilles heel, smart savvy owners know how to deal with it. A multitude of owners not so much. Although not cheap, a pair of new Cummins could improve the value of this boat and more important the vessel's usability.

And yes, a Fleming "redone" is a worthy vessel to spend big bucks on, one of the few.

 

[kthoennes]

I always say, when you start one project, you’ve start five.

Ugh, that's so true. Tossed the Norcold fridge and installed a high-efficiency 110v residential fridge on a dedicated, single-purpose inverter. Simple, right? Silly me. Wires to the inverter (12 volt, former fridge wires) were surprisingly skinny, had to upgrade wiring. Then I figured the inverter and the fridge would generate some additional heat, a low-power fan in the cabinet would be good, fine. Then the inverter has an external control panel, fine, mount it to the side of the cabinet - silly to have to take the fridge out to access the inverter control panel every time. And as long as I'm in there, I might as well install a USB charging outlet off the inverter too, because it's got a ton of extra capacity that would never be used otherwise and everybody always needs to charge phones, etc., and that's an almost insignificant additional draw. Then while I'm in there, I find out wasps had built mud nests in the 4" air intake hoses that run way behind the fridge cabinet to the air intakes outside the hull, plugged them solid, need to detach, clean out, and reattach the hoses. Then some of the wasp mud went cascading down inside the hoses into the engine bay/bilge, need to shop vac that out. Then....

 

[Mdginc]

Hello Everyone, Thank you for all your advice while considering a purchase of an older boat. We learned a lot. The Fleming checked lots of our boxes however after the engine and hull surveys results we decided not proceed. Now to back to our the boat search.

 

[mmullins]

however after the engine and hull surveys results we decided not proceed. Now to back to our the boat search.

In regards to the hull survey, is this a cored hull or solid fiberglass?

 

[PhilPB]

Ugh, that's so true. Tossed the Norcold fridge and installed a high-efficiency 110v residential fridge on a dedicated, single-purpose inverter. Simple, right? Silly me. Wires to the inverter (12 volt, former fridge wires) were surprisingly skinny, had to upgrade wiring. Then I figured the inverter and the fridge would generate some additional heat, a low-power fan in the cabinet would be good, fine. Then the inverter has an external control panel, fine, mount it to the side of the cabinet - silly to have to take the fridge out to access the inverter control panel every time. And as long as I'm in there, I might as well install a USB charging outlet off the inverter too, because it's got a ton of extra capacity that would never be used otherwise and everybody always needs to charge phones, etc., and that's an almost insignificant additional draw. Then while I'm in there, I find out wasps had built mud nests in the 4" air intake hoses that run way behind the fridge cabinet to the air intakes outside the hull, plugged them solid, need to detach, clean out, and reattach the hoses. Then some of the wasp mud went cascading down inside the hoses into the engine bay/bilge, need to shop vac that out. Then....

It never ends. When you think you have one last project to do, that morphs into 3 more...then those 3 create 2 more projects for each of the 3....now your one last project created 9 more...then , when you have those done....it's groundhogs day and the cycle begins again!