Battery charger always on?

[luna]

The two pins at each end of a straight tube are connected together by the filament, so of course there will be some resistance between those two pins. Otherwise the tube would not light.

The only thing connecting one of the pins at one end of the straight tube to a pin at the other end of the straight tube is the tube's glass (non-conductive) and the enclosed gas, which is non-conductive if not energized.

Your circular tube is simply a straight tube rolled into a circle, two ends, four pins, two filaments still exist.

Did your You-Tuber bother to try to see if the two ends of the tube were connected?

 

[paulga]

The two pins at each end of a straight tube are connected together by the filament, so of course there will be some resistance between those two pins. Otherwise the tube would not light.

The only thing connecting one of the pins at one end of the straight tube to a pin at the other end of the straight tube is the tube's glass (non-conductive) and the enclosed gas, which is non-conductive if not energized.

Your circular tube is simply a straight tube rolled into a circle, two ends, four pins, two filaments still exist.

Did your You-Tuber bother to try to see if the two ends of the tube were connected?

after taking the connection fitting apart, I see why it's not conductive and the ohm meter has no reading.

the battery volt is 13.5V. using a Fluke 325, i got the current on the er lights circuit is 5.6A. the actual total watt is 75w, higher than the labeled 66w (22w x 3), or the fluke 325 needs to be calibrated.

 

[Jackets]

Sorry for the delay, Lots of good help here on this i see.
Yeah florescent tubes will not provide a useful measurement due to the ballast and i doubt you'd get a good reading from that.

Best bet is to find a resistive load to use for the test it doesn't need to be native to the boat, i had a couple 100W lights mounted on magnets for extra lighting when needed, something like that would work fine.

Now its 18w LED pods on magnets, i like them better as they are more compact and nicer to be around in the summer.

 

[paulga]

I saw this ANL fuse bus on the marinehowto article, it says for abyc compliance, fuses should be installed reasonably close to the battery + post for each device connected to the battery. I need to take these fuses into consideration when I change the charger. I didn't spot a similar fuse bus near my charger. where can I find these fuses?

 

[Portage_Bay]

Suggest you go to bluesea.com to learn about fuses. Choose the fuse you need. Once you have the blue sea part # it's easy to find them online.

There are other sources for info but blue sea is a good place to start. And blue sea gear is high quality.

 

[Davil1]

Amazon

 

[av8r]

One definition of a fully-charged battery is when at float voltage it accepts a charging current of less than 2% of its capacity, i.e, a 100 amp-hour battery is fully charged when it accepts less than 2 amps at float voltage. Since the bank is around 700 ah, a float current of something less than 14 amps would be reasonable.

 

[RickyD]

Do you have any draws that explain the charger staying on? As an example, things that are instant on, ofter have power draw even when off. Multi function displays that aren't turned off with a circuit breaker, often draw power. A refrigerator with an electronic thermostat, constantly draws power. TVs and computers with instant on, consistently draw power. An inverter / battery charger constantly draws power.

Not saying there aren't other issues, but first you need to know how much power is being used by things you think are off.

Ted

I'd just turn off all of the breakers to end any draw then check it out. I have two chargers charging my house bank. The main one is a 120 amp. The other is a back up 40 amp that charges 3 banks. #2 generator start batt. Main engines start bank and then the house bank. My little charger has a gauge that always reads something between 3 amps and 20 amps. My big charger sometimes reads 0.

 

[paulga]

One definition of a fully-charged battery is when at float voltage it accepts a charging current of less than 2% of its capacity, i.e, a 100 amp-hour battery is fully charged when it accepts less than 2 amps at float voltage. Since the bank is around 700 ah, a float current of something less than 14 amps would be reasonable.

The most recent readings I got are 10a. So the current charger appears still working fine.

 

[paulga]

Suggest you go to bluesea.com to learn about fuses. Choose the fuse you need. Once you have the blue sea part # it's easy to find them online.

There are other sources for info but blue sea is a good place to start. And blue sea gear is high quality.

No, my confusion here is not what fuses to buy. It's about the wiring of the charger. There are no fuses near my charger so I thought the installation is a straight forward swap. I was able to follow that mht article until it started talking about the fuses.

In the article, the fuse bus is next to a genasun gv-10. The article did not give any introduction of this gv-10, I'm not clear what it is and how it is wired to the charger.

The third fuse from the left is called battery charger, so it should be wired to the charger?

 

[Trawlerdream]

It is always a risk to leave a battery on charge. A 12V battery has 6 cells. About 2 V each. (6x2=12) When batteries ages it is not uncommon that one cell shorts out. That means you have a 10V battery. The Charles battery charger will pump in 14.6V and overcharge the other 5 cells until the battery gets very hot and boils dry. (In worse case you have a fire) More modern chargers Victron etc. have a temp. Sensor that you attach to the battery to prevent this from happening. The problem is that a typical house bank have more than one battery. The typical charger only have one sensor. So if the sensor is not attached to the battery with a problem the charger will continue to overcharge all batteries in the bank.
To prevent this from happening you could put your charger on a timer. Set the timer to be on 4-5 hours one day/week. 4-5 hours is sufficient to top up your batteries. But 4-5 hours is short enough not to overheat a failed battery.

 

[paulga]

It is always a risk to leave a battery on charge. A 12V battery has 6 cells. About 2 V each. (6x2=12) When batteries ages it is not uncommon that one cell shorts out. That means you have a 10V battery. The Charles battery charger will pump in 14.6V and overcharge the other 5 cells until the battery gets very hot and boils dry. (In worse case you have a fire) More modern chargers Victron etc. have a temp. Sensor that you attach to the battery to prevent this from happening. The problem is that a typical house bank have more than one battery. The typical charger only have one sensor. So if the sensor is not attached to the battery with a problem the charger will continue to overcharge all batteries in the bank.
To prevent this from happening you could put your charger on a timer. Set the timer to be on 4-5 hours one day/week. 4-5 hours is sufficient to top up your batteries. But 4-5 hours is short enough not to overheat a failed battery.

Yes it's a problem - I have 7 batteries but the new charger only has 1 temp sensor port.

One 5 hour session per week or per day?

Do you have a picture of such a timer?

 

[Portage_Bay]

No, my confusion here is not what fuses to buy. It's about the wiring of the charger. There are no fuses near my charger so I thought the installation is a straight forward swap. I was able to follow that mht article until it started talking about the fuses.

In the article, the fuse bus is next to a genasun gv-10. The article did not give any introduction of this gv-10, I'm not clear what it is and how it is wired to the charger.

The third fuse from the left is called battery charger, so it should be wired to the charger?



View attachment 155024

OK, you want to know where to put the fuses? You've got what I think is a typo making your question difficult to understand. I think you are referring to Installing a Marine Battery Charger ? on Marine How To? I'm familiar with that article having consulted it for the installation of the charger on my last boat. You're asking about a "genasun gv-10" A quick scan of that article and I can't find that term. A typo perhaps?

What Rod is telling you is to be ABYC compliant put a fuse near the battery. Please read these two paragraphs from Rod's article. My bolding

You will also note the three bused ANL fuses on the left which protect the ALTERNATOR, HOUSE BANK and CHARGER wiring. The ABYC requires that any device connected directly to a battery be fused within 7″ of the + battery post to protect the wiring. These fuses are not intended to protect the devices but rather the wiring in the case of a dead short to ground. While the 7″ rule is often very tough to meet always try to get the fuses as close as you can to the battery + post. The wire marked HOUSE BANK + FEED is about 16″ long but runs in a conduit for about 9″, under the quarter berth, then comes out at the fuse.

Because the alternator and charger do not use the same size wiring as the house bank feed to the battery switch, they each need their own fuse to protect the wire.

Again I suggest some research on selecting the correct type of fuse. Blue Sea has a lot of info but you have to dig for it. Rod on Marine How To has this article Battery Banks & Over-Current Protection. As you read his or any other trustworthy info on fuses consider the AIC rating and if you need a high AIC rating or not. Quoting Rod again.

Ampere Interrupting Capacity (AIC) – the maximum short-circuit current that an over-current protection device can safely interrupt under standard test conditions.

Simply put if the fuse cannot safely blow when the full current of the battery bank is passing through the circuit, in the event of a short to ground, then the wrong kind of fuse can blow yet in the process weld itself together so that the current is not interrupted. A fire results. If you've ever seen a dead short across a battery, I have a screw driver dropped across the posts of a starting battery, it's very impressive how much energy flows instantly and how hot things get. Our battery banks store an impressive amount of energy. Even a well depleted aging FLA bank. Don't give all that energy the chance to all get out at once through a dead short and failed fuse.

Your question I did not respond well to originally in your post #64 was where to find the fuses. Determine which fuse you need, Blue Sea is as good a place as any, use the Blue Sea # to search for the fuse and holder. Amazon is one place. Trustworthy marine suppliers are another. Caution, be sure you are buying genuine Blue Sea gear not knock offs. Example I have just ordered a Blue Sea Class T 125 AMP fuse. Blue Sea part # 5113. Blue Sea says to use holder part # 5007100. Found both on Amazon. Next I looked carefully at the images on Blue Sea and on Amazon to be sure I have a good chance of ordering the correct items. When I get the shipment I will double check. There are reports of knock off fuses not fitting the holder. If the fuse doesn't fit what else did they get wrong?

Knowledgeable people here may point out that Blue Sea doesn't manufacture some or even most of their parts. The do market quality gear. If you can't determine that on your own buy from an outfit like Blue Sea.

 

[Bmarler]

I’ve stayed out of this thread as there is plenty of input, but, I thought I’d mention, the genasun gv-10 is a charger. It’s a solar mppt charger. Are there solar panels on board? They would wire to that.
Second, you said you have an inverter, is that right Jay?
Is it an inverter/charger?
Just looking at the layout of your system, I see it’s well done and labeled for easy identification. Likely done by someone who knew what they were doing. (Not always though)
You just don’t have a full understanding of it yet. Just be careful to wait till you completely understand the system as it is before making changes.
To my thinking a guy that obsesses over labels like that probably likes independent or redundant systems, so a stand alone inverter and charger seems probable. It’s a shame though, as the combo units work together so well, and give you data back that you can use to determine how well the system works, and how the batteries are holding up.
I live aboard too, and my inverter/charger is on 24/7. I monitor what it’s doing daily. It holds the batteries at the float voltage I programmed it to do, and makes power to supply the house needs so the batteries are just resting. I’ll turn off shore power now and then so I can cycle the batteries and check the solar output to see if everything is ok.

 

[SteveK]

@paulga has a 60A Charles battery charger for the start batteries. He did have an inverter/charger that was reverse wired */- and which was to be replaced which went to the 7 battery house bank.
Post 7 picture is two start batteries which are not required to have an output fuse between battery and starter.
So then are we talking about an external battery charger fuse, in addition to the internal fuse, then he needs an 80A fuse for the + feed line to the battery that can be located within 72 inches from charger (weird). I would put it near the charger outlet to protect charger from a short in the charge line.

What size and type of fuse is the charger fuse and the house out fuse?

Personally, I do not leave the the start battery charger on all the time as they hold the charge quite well between starts and will get a top up charge on next engine start. The charger is for a what if event.

 

[paulga]

OK, you want to know where to put the fuses? You've got what I think is a typo making your question difficult to understand. I think you are referring to Installing a Marine Battery Charger ? on Marine How To? I'm familiar with that article having consulted it for the installation of the charger on my last boat. You're asking about a "genasun gv-10" A quick scan of that article and I can't find that term. A typo perhaps?

What Rod is telling you is to be ABYC compliant put a fuse near the battery. Please read these two paragraphs from Rod's article. My bolding



Again I suggest some research on selecting the correct type of fuse. Blue Sea has a lot of info but you have to dig for it. Rod on Marine How To has this article Battery Banks & Over-Current Protection. As you read his or any other trustworthy info on fuses consider the AIC rating and if you need a high AIC rating or not. Quoting Rod again.



Simply put if the fuse cannot safely blow when the full current of the battery bank is passing through the circuit, in the event of a short to ground, then the wrong kind of fuse can blow yet in the process weld itself together so that the current is not interrupted. A fire results. If you've ever seen a dead short across a battery, I have a screw driver dropped across the posts of a starting battery, it's very impressive how much energy flows instantly and how hot things get. Our battery banks store an impressive amount of energy. Even a well depleted aging FLA bank. Don't give all that energy the chance to all get out at once through a dead short and failed fuse.

Your question I did not respond well to originally in your post #64 was where to find the fuses. Determine which fuse you need, Blue Sea is as good a place as any, use the Blue Sea # to search for the fuse and holder. Amazon is one place. Trustworthy marine suppliers are another. Caution, be sure you are buying genuine Blue Sea gear not knock offs. Example I have just ordered a Blue Sea Class T 125 AMP fuse. Blue Sea part # 5113. Blue Sea says to use holder part # 5007100. Found both on Amazon. Next I looked carefully at the images on Blue Sea and on Amazon to be sure I have a good chance of ordering the correct items. When I get the shipment I will double check. There are reports of knock off fuses not fitting the holder. If the fuse doesn't fit what else did they get wrong?

Knowledgeable people here may point out that Blue Sea doesn't manufacture some or even most of their parts. The do market quality gear. If you can't determine that on your own buy from an outfit like Blue Sea.

Thanks for recommending the blue sea resource.
I want to focus on the wiring of the charger for now and do the fuse research later.
Genasun was not mentioned in letter in that article. It only showed in a picture in the fuse section. According to @Bmarler , this is a solar charger. so the third anl fuse should be wired to the solar charger and the batt charger on the other end. But the "charger out" post is not wired, instead is bussed to the other two fuses' posts. I have yet get the design of this fuse bar

 

[Bmarler]

@paulga has a 60A Charles battery charger for the start batteries. He did have an inverter/charger that was reverse wired */- and which was to be replaced which went to the 7 battery house bank.
Post 7 picture is two start batteries which are not required to have an output fuse between battery and starter.
So then are we talking about an external battery charger fuse, in addition to the internal fuse, then he needs an 80A fuse for the + feed line to the battery that can be located within 72 inches from charger (weird). I would put it near the charger outlet to protect charger from a short in the charge line.

What size and type of fuse is the charger fuse and the house out fuse?

Personally, I do not leave the the start battery charger on all the time as they hold the charge quite well between starts and will get a top up charge on next engine start. The charger is for a what if event.

I should have stayed out of the conversation. I didn’t realize the pictures weren’t from Jays boat, but we’re from an article. Photo credits would have been a good thing.
I would agree with you that start batteries typically don’t need to be always on the charger, just monitored and topped as needed.
Mine however, are connected via a path maker relay with adjustable set points. All of my batteries are the same agm gc2. 6 for the start bank and 10 for the house. All installed at the same time. I just let them all float together.
But, back to Jay. As usual, his threads can take a meandering path. At this point I’m not even sure what he’s trying to accomplish.
He seemed confused about the buss/fuse picture.
The buss can be a two way street. Some power coming in and some going out. The charger in can actually mean charger output…

 

[paulga]

I’ve stayed out of this thread as there is plenty of input, but, I thought I’d mention, the genasun gv-10 is a charger. It’s a solar mppt charger. Are there solar panels on board? They would wire to that.
Second, you said you have an inverter, is that right Jay?
Is it an inverter/charger?
Just looking at the layout of your system, I see it’s well done and labeled for easy identification. Likely done by someone who knew what they were doing. (Not always though)
You just don’t have a full understanding of it yet. Just be careful to wait till you completely understand the system as it is before making changes.
To my thinking a guy that obsesses over labels like that probably likes independent or redundant systems, so a stand alone inverter and charger seems probable. It’s a shame though, as the combo units work together so well, and give you data back that you can use to determine how well the system works, and how the batteries are holding up.
I live aboard too, and my inverter/charger is on 24/7. I monitor what it’s doing daily. It holds the batteries at the float voltage I programmed it to do, and makes power to supply the house needs so the batteries are just resting. I’ll turn off shore power now and then so I can cycle the batteries and check the solar output to see if everything is ok.

my boat has two inverters -

1. Xantrex PRO XM 1800, it provides AC 110v

2. Cobra inverter, provides 110v AC dedicated to the fridge

their on off switch and somewhat confusing selectors b/t 12v and 110v. Either 12v or 110v is a pass-through. I don't know why there is a need for the pass through.

I noted each of the inverters' pos cable has a fuse. I understand both fuses are to protect the battery/wire loom. what I don't follow is in the marinehowto article:

the 3 outputs are jumped to create a "single output", the pos and neg cables are said to connect to a "charge distribution system". next, the article comes to the fuse bus, this is where I cannot figure out which is connected to which.

(photo source: marinehowto.com)

(photo source: marinehowto.com)

 

[fgarriso]

Yes, you should leave the charger on full-time. Also, you have a bank of 7 batteries at 10 amps charging that has each battery absorbing 1.428 amps at float charge. Charging battery's is not 100% efficient. Just make sure you don't have 1 battery in the bank that is getting hot.

 

[Portage_Bay]

You are trying to understand

the 3 outputs are jumped to create a "single output", the pos and neg cables are said to connect to a "charge distribution system".

I think your answer is in the quote below from Collins article. Do keep in mind he is specifically talking about the Sterling charger. This is for the Sterling or one similar. It probably would not apply to your Charles charger.

Technically with this charger you don’t need to “jump” the unused outputs if using it as a single output charger. The US distributor feels, and I agree, that it is a wise idea to equally load the output FET’s so I chose to jumper than to even load the outputs. The two red jumpers are jumping output 1, 2 & 3 to load all the output FET’s equally. This essentially makes the charger a single output 20A charger rather than a three output 20A charger. All current in this installation will feed to the house bank and the starting bank will be charged via a Blue Sea Systems ACR relay. You would do the same with an Echo or Duo Charger.

Next you are trying to understand

next, the article comes to the fuse bus, this is where I cannot figure out which is connected to which.

I wouldn't try to mimic Collins setup. It looks like he did a full tear out and re-do. Keep in mind as you already are aware the fuses protect the cable and go as close to the power source as possible. You'll have to roll your own with these concepts in mind. So, one fuse fore each circuit. Either at the battery or if using a (+) buss then at that buss where the cable sizes step down. In other words if you have a 2/0 or 4/0 from the battery then a fuse close to the battery the big cable is protected between the battery and (+) buss. From the (+) buss to devices and other circuits the cables will be smaller. Put their fuses as close to the (+) buss as possible sized to protect that smaller cable.

Collins is a wealth of freely shared information but unfortunately a bit challenging to read.

 

[paulga]

Yes, you should leave the charger on full-time. Also, you have a bank of 7 batteries at 10 amps charging that has each battery absorbing 1.428 amps at float charge. Charging battery's is not 100% efficient. Just make sure you don't have 1 battery in the bank that is getting hot.

is there a cheaper solution than to purchase 7 bluetooth Victron batt monitors?

 

[Bmarler]

Thanks for listing the photo credits.
When rod says the three outputs, is it three different charge sources? I looked briefly at the article but didn’t see what was confusing you.
I think the goal is to limit the number of connections on the battery post. Using a common bar to make the connections and then one lead to the battery. So, all three charge sources connect to that bar, and all have fuses at that bar.
Even though that buss bar is a collection point for all the chargers, it can also be a place to pull power for an inverter or other item.
One only needs to consider the power going in and out so you size it to carry the load.

 

[Bmarler]

is there a cheaper solution than to purchase 7 bluetooth Victron batt monitors?

Yes. Use one battery monitor. Note the nominal amp draw. If that changes, investigate.

 

[paulga]

Thanks for listing the photo credits.
When rod says the three outputs, is it three different charge sources? I looked briefly at the article but didn’t see what was confusing you.
I think the goal is to limit the number of connections on the battery post. Using a common bar to make the connections and then one lead to the battery. So, all three charge sources connect to that bar, and all have fuses at that bar.
Even though that buss bar is a collection point for all the chargers, it can also be a place to pull power for an inverter or other item.
One only needs to consider the power going in and out so you size it to carry the load.

the 3 outputs refer to the 3 pos output FET. he jumped them together to load them evenly. though this is not necessary technically, because only 1 FET is being used.

(photo 1 source: marinehowto.com)

Then he said the charger feeds all current to a house bank, there is a starting bank which will be charged via a Blue Sea Systems ACR relay. is it clear to you which cable in photo 3 is the red cable in photo 2?

(photo 2 source: marinehowto.com)

(photo 3 source: marinehowto.com)

 

[Bmarler]

Oh, I see. That charger has three separate output fet’s. It can support three banks separately. He jumps them so all three outputs are loaded evenly. I don’t know if this really helps or not. But if one fails, the others will take up the slack.
It is clear what cable is incoming from the charger because it’s labeled as “in battery charger.”
His labeling may be confusing till you make sense of it.
What he does, is label the in and out on the fuse ends, and the function in the middle. So the charger label, starting from the cable towards the buss bar would read, “in battery charger x amps out”
Or something like that. Only confusing till you see his method.

 

[paulga]

Yes. Use one battery monitor. Note the nominal amp draw. If that changes, investigate.

could you read from the monitor if the battery is doing floating charge?

one battery requires one monitor plus a temp sensor, so $130 x 7 = $910 for 7 batteries, very expensive.

 

[Bmarler]

could you read from the monitor if the battery is doing floating charge?

one battery requires one monitor plus a temp sensor, so $130 x 7 = $910 for 7 batteries, very expensive.

Nobody puts a temp sensor and monitor on each battery. The temp sensor is used when charging. The regulator wants that information to adjust the volt settings for temperature compensation. I’ve never seen anyone use them for an alarm system on the battery bank.
A decent battery monitor will give you the information you need.
Float charge is a voltage setting. I can look at my monitor and see it’s at 13.6 volts. That tells me I’m floating.
Look at the amps on the battery shunt, close to zero. Hardly anything going into the batteries.
Now I look at the charger output. I see about 10 amps. This is the power the boat is using for refrigeration, misc other stuff.
If something isn’t right, these readings will change. I can then investigate.

 

[SteveK]

The jumped charger reds is charging the start batteries, then the ACR is charging the house.

 

[paulga]

Nobody puts a temp sensor and monitor on each battery. The temp sensor is used when charging. The regulator wants that information to adjust the volt settings for temperature compensation. I’ve never seen anyone use them for an alarm system on the battery bank.
A decent battery monitor will give you the information you need.
Float charge is a voltage setting. I can look at my monitor and see it’s at 13.6 volts. That tells me I’m floating.
Look at the amps on the battery shunt, close to zero. Hardly anything going into the batteries.
Now I look at the charger output. I see about 10 amps. This is the power the boat is using for refrigeration, misc other stuff.
If something isn’t right, these readings will change. I can then investigate.

so only one batt monitor is needed. is it installed to any one house or start battery?

 

[SteveK]

could you read from the monitor if the battery is doing floating charge?

one battery requires one monitor plus a temp sensor, so $130 x 7 = $910 for 7 batteries, very expensive.

They call it a battery bank, the term when a number of batteries make up the whole. You only need one monitor, one heat sensor for non LFP batteries.