first time in fog

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As I mentioned in another post, I turned around on Friday on my way to get fuel. Much more open water, however I had to contend with commercial traffic and traffic coming from all directions. I decided I could get fuel another day.

I am not sure if I would have turned around in the Swinomish. I love that route, but even in good visibility, it is a stretch that requires close attention. I wouldn’t want to do it in the fog.

I have contacted Vessel Traffic in the fog. I don’t have a AIS transponder, only receiver. I wanted to be sure that all those big freighters moving at 20+ knots knew where I was as I tried to get out of their way.
 
Wouldn’t trust Marine Traffic. I love it to follow my friends but often there’s a sufficient lag it’s not reliable for navigation.
 
I almost always overlay radar over my charts. The only time I don't is if the radar image is obliterating the shoreline when nearby, and even then only briefly. I only have one MFD screen and if I split it between the chart and radar, they are only confusing since I always use north up on the chart and the radar is only heads up. It works for me. (Everything is on when I'm underway always.)
 
Wouldn’t trust Marine Traffic. I love it to follow my friends but often there’s a sufficient lag it’s not reliable for navigation.


I wasn't talking about the website with AIS data, I was talking about the Vessel Traffic Control. Some areas require commercial vessels to be in communication with them. Non-commercial and smaller vessels can participate on a voluntary basis. This is very region specific.
 
My must-haves in fog are

Autopilot

Radar

Redundant chartplotters

Auto fog horn (Fogmate)

AIS or Marinetraffic

VHF Comm with VTS in channels

Good pre departure planning


Good list FW, except for the redundant plotter. That may be a nice backup, but I wouldn’t say “must have.” Or do you own very unreliable plotters which go down all the time?
 
AIS is great in river systems and commercial traffic areas but hardy past nice to have...versus must have.

In many places, you are far more likely to hit something paying attention to AIS versus RADAR.
 
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Do any of you guys communicate with Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) of USCG to advise them of your position and intentions and receive traffic advisories of vessels they are aware of in your area? I always check in with them when operating in main channels during fog. We have lots of commercial traffic plying the waters here and they're all on VTS. ...

I find listening for ships required to check-in with VTS at designated locations to be sufficient.
 
Do any of you guys communicate with Vessel Traffic Service (VTS) of USCG to advise them of your position and intentions and receive traffic advisories of vessels they are aware of in your area? I always check in with them when operating in main channels during fog. We have lots of commercial traffic plying the waters here and they're all on VTS.



I don't have AIS, but use the cellphone repeaters like Marinetraffic and Boat Beacon to announce my position to others with Marinetraffic and observe local AIS targets...albeit delayed somewhat.



My must-haves in fog are



Autopilot

Radar

Redundant chartplotters

Auto fog horn (Fogmate)

AIS or Marinetraffic

VHF Comm with VTS in channels

Good pre departure planning



Not since getting ais. Ais is a game changer for commercial traffic. Better is that they can see me. I had to make a few trips without the ability to transmit, didn’t like it.
 
So we were in La Connor last night. Our first time running the Swinomish channel. When we woke up this morning real heavy fog which the weather had forecast so we waited for it to lift. It did around 11:00 and i saw other boats running so figured the coast was clear. About a half mile down we ran into the fog that hadn't lifted. It was thick enough that i could not see the water in front of the bow. I slowed way down and just followed the chart and the radar. Finally became clear after a couple of hours.
Should i have turned around?
Is there anything i should have done differently?
Since i could not even see the channel markers is it prudent to put that much trust in the charts?
The pictures were taken when we got out of the worst of it. I had my hands full but once out of the channel i relaxed a bit.



Welcome to fogtember. If you are going to be out in Sept/October you had better practice up as this pretty normal. Should you have turned around? Well, as this very excellent thread has pointed out, that particular patch of water is not the easiest. But the more important point is there is only ever one person you can count on to know that answer. Nobody else can tell you, ever. You can neither lack confidence nor be over confident. The answer is not specific to the location or your skills and it can change from one day to the next. The most important skill to learn first, is an accurate self assessment. Best way I know to do that, is to not be afraid to admit when things get a little close to the edge and open talk (debrief) about them. So congratulations for developing that feedback loop, most don’t and as a result take longer to learn.

I’ve never found the channel to be particularly difficult to read, it does provide its own feedback if you watch for it, but there are a couple pointers. There used to be a shoal just south of the shelter bay entrance that comes and goes between dredging. Favor the Southeast side in that area until about half way to hole in the wall on a lower tide. As mentioned learn to steer a compass course and match your speed to your awareness. Auto pilot is a huge help in the fog, but the heading sensor on my boat has always been sensitive enough to double as a magnetometer. Just south of hole in the wall, there used to be a steel cable on the bottom. Running on auto pilot would cause a sudden course change in that spot, so I learned to hand steer. Once you reach the island with the log dolphin tie ups, it was fine. Then just make sure you don’t cut the corner on the final leg. In deep fog, I tend to pick a course that is going to be a different than the exact point to point waypoints. Try not to be exactly where everyone else is. Try not to run close to shore in the shallows. That’s an old trick for boats without radar, running just close enough to shore to get a glimpse every now and then. Same idea, don’t run where others are likely. Watch out for known fishing spots, often reefs or where two currents meet. Lots of fishing boats without radar, going 25+ knots on gps alone.

The biggest tip of course, already mentioned, is running the radar on nice days. We have a lot of “canyons” where you are surrounded by steep hillsides and narrowing passages. Radar likes to produce echos in those locations. Best to get used to where to tune, change ranges n nice days.

Don’t worry about pushing the limits, you will get caught often enough to get plenty of practice. If you find you are not having fun, or stressed, listen to the inner voice. If you hear the external voice, listen double to that one if you don’t want to sleep alone.
 
Well that’s a shame Conrad. It was nice knowing you, but obviously you’re going to die!

(See cj47’s comments in post 118)

[emoji3]

Ha! Yes, I'm definitely going to be involved in a major collision of some sort and my tombstone will say something like "He Overlayed"...
 
Wouldn’t trust Marine Traffic. I love it to follow my friends but often there’s a sufficient lag it’s not reliable for navigation.

Today, with fog, I heard a freighter out front, I located it on BoatBeacon and on Marine Traffic.
BoatBeacon had it where the sound was, Marine Traffic had it 1/2 mile behind.
A closer look at Marine Traffic had its last contact 2 minutes behind what BoatBeacon had.

I have checked BoatBeacon against visual several times and occasionally it is behind, but most of the time it is right on. Marine Traffic, when I have checked it, is behind most of the time, only occasionally right on.

The other difference is; Marine Traffic is free, BoatBeacon has to be purchased. Currently $20.99US, or part of a $36.99 bundle with Navigation.
 
On our last trip to the San Juans it was during the big fires in Sept. The smoke was pretty bad (perhaps some fog too), probably 1/4 to 1/2mile visibility. I used that opportunity to practice with the radar and try overlay of radar and AIS. It was interesting to see the lag in the AIS and after a while have more confidence in the radar signal after some tuning but using them together would take some practice. This is a new to me boat and although my last boat had a Garmin MFD it had a separate Raymarine radar which didn't overlay on the chart. I got a lot out of that practice session in the smoke and realized I should do a lot more of that to get really comfortable with the electronics.
 
Welcome to fogtember. If you are going to be out in Sept/October you had better practice up as this pretty normal. Should you have turned around? Well, as this very excellent thread has pointed out, that particular patch of water is not the easiest. But the more important point is there is only ever one person you can count on to know that answer. Nobody else can tell you, ever. You can neither lack confidence nor be over confident. The answer is not specific to the location or your skills and it can change from one day to the next. The most important skill to learn first, is an accurate self assessment. Best way I know to do that, is to not be afraid to admit when things get a little close to the edge and open talk (debrief) about them. So congratulations for developing that feedback loop, most don’t and as a result take longer to learn.

I’ve never found the channel to be particularly difficult to read, it does provide its own feedback if you watch for it, but there are a couple



pointers. There used to be a shoal just south of the shelter bay entrance that comes and goes between dredging. Favor the Southeast side in that area until about half way to hole in the wall on a lower tide. As mentioned learn to steer a compass course and match your speed to your awareness. Auto pilot is a huge help in the fog, but the heading sensor on my boat has always been sensitive enough to double as a magnetometer. Just south of hole in the wall, there used to be a steel cable on the bottom. Running on auto pilot would cause a sudden course change in that spot, so I learned to hand steer. Once you reach the island with the log dolphin tie ups, it was fine. Then just make sure you don’t cut the corner on the final leg. In deep fog, I tend to pick a course that is going to be a different than the exact point to point waypoints. Try not to be exactly where everyone else is. Try not to run close to shore in the shallows. That’s an old trick for boats without radar, running just close enough to shore to get a glimpse every now and then. Same idea, don’t run where others are likely. Watch out for known fishing spots, often reefs or where two currents meet. Lots of fishing boats without radar, going 25+ knots on gps alone.

The biggest tip of course, already mentioned, is running the radar on nice days. We have a lot of “canyons” where you are surrounded by steep hillsides and narrowing passages. Radar likes to produce echos in those locations. Best to get used to where to tune, change ranges n nice days.

Don’t worry about pushing the limits, you will get caught often enough to get plenty of practice. If you find you are not having fun, or stressed, listen to the inner voice. If you hear the external voice, listen double to that one if you don’t want to sleep alone.


Very well written post that should read slowly to let you point sink is.
I was quite calm and was weighing my options by the minute. I think flying aircraft helps one kept there head in right. I was going with the current so the rinks of contacting debris were minimized which was the number one reason for not turning around and going up stream .I was reading the charts and not traveling where i would like to since that would likely find traffic. I kept the bow and stern thrustsers active so i could jump sideways in a hurry.
What i leaned was i need to do more research in verifying whats ahead. Perhaps a cell call to a business down stream.The weather reports were just saying the fog was going to lift.
I am glad this is resulting in an informative chat around the fire pit.pricless
 
Don’t know the west coast. In the northeast good to scan 9,13 and 16. MarineTraffic is highly variable. Outside near coastal can be quite delayed. Of interest Rotterdam and other places have flipped back to LORAN for harbor traffic control.
 
Don’t know the west coast. In the northeast good to scan 9,13 and 16. MarineTraffic is highly variable. Outside near coastal can be quite delayed. Of interest Rotterdam and other places have flipped back to LORAN for harbor traffic control.

LORAN - really? Do you have reference for this fact?
 
Question on Vessel Traffic Service:


Never used it as I don't believe I have the need, but do boat in the Tampa/St. Pete area a lot where they have it. While I don't cross the shipping lanes, I do enough to probably get to know the service.


What is the protocol for calling them? Give position and course or?


Thanks.
 
Question on Vessel Traffic Service:


Never used it as I don't believe I have the need, but do boat in the Tampa/St. Pete area a lot where they have it. While I don't cross the shipping lanes, I do enough to probably get to know the service.


What is the protocol for calling them? Give position and course or?


Thanks.

I have found VTS not really interested in recreational traffic UNLESS said recreational traffic is a hazard to navigation, like fog. Having AIS makes it all a lot easier for you, VTS and commercial traffic.

In Canadian VTS in B.C. as a recreational boater you can voluntarily enter "The system." Then they track you like any other commercial vessel (or recreational vessel over 68ft LOA) but that requires you to track your self to the next reporting line/position. Then once you report in, they want an ETA for the next reporting position (you have to know where that point is).

Believe me when I say you only do it once and then you won't do it again.

My first experience was bring ASD from S.F. to the Columbia. I called VTS as I was departing and not knowing much about it, I am sure I was more of a PIA for them.
 
Good list FW, except for the redundant plotter. That may be a nice backup, but I wouldn’t say “must have.” Or do you own very unreliable plotters which go down all the time?

I have a Garmin with an internal antenna that occasionally loses its position them snaps back. My Navionics does not do this. When this happens in the fog, it's very reassuring to have the other screen to verify position. Also, the different systems display info differently and one is sometimes easier to decifer than the other. It's probably the inner pilot in me but I'm a sucker for redundancy when practical.

Years ago, I organized a tour of the USCG VTS center on Yerba Buena Island in SF Bay for a group of about 10 TFers. It was a great way to learn about the services provided and talk face to face with the men and women providing that service. We all learned a lot and I highly recommend it for others when this Covid scare diminishes. It's interesting to see what special equipment they have at their disposal to find and identify vessels in their waters...both the ne'er-do-wells and the vessels in distress.

I always tune and listen to the freq for a period before calling to get a feel for what's happening.
When I call, I identify myself, describe my vessel (rec trawler), state my location and intentions and state my request...traffic advisories, info about ops along my route, fog report, etc. If they just read a caution to another vessel about a no wake zone along the route, I'll let them know I copied that so they won't have to repeat it to me again.

Like radar, I often contact them in good conditions so it remains a current skill set. They always seem happy to help and sometimes even appreciative of my call in congested waters.
 
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Google it. Multiple references. In commercial use. Also USCG has installed eLORAN throughout Europe. It’s resistant to EMF pulse or the satellite network going down.
 
Using LORAN is a step back into the future.
 
Question on Vessel Traffic Service:
Never used it as I don't believe I have the need, but do boat in the Tampa/St. Pete area a lot where they have it. While I don't cross the shipping lanes, I do enough to probably get to know the service.

What is the protocol for calling them? Give position and course or?

Thanks.

In Tampa VTS with a recreational boat your size you won't be required to participate. Best to go online to your local sector and download their VTS user manual. It will contain instructions on how to use the system and what VHF channel(s) to use. Here's a link to the Tampa VTS user manual https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Content/Attachments/861/VTS Users Manual 2010 edition.pdf You can call for information and advice such as requesting traffic information prior to crossing shipping lanes in reduced visibility.

If you elect to not call VTS it's still very useful to monitor their working channel(s) to get a heads up on traffic in your vicinity.

As ASD suggests, resist the urge to check in.
 
Question on Vessel Traffic Service:

What is the protocol for calling them? Give position and course or?


Thanks.

When I was driving a dinner cruise boat in San Francisco Bay - long before AIS, I would hail VTS with very compact comms.

"Traffic...... Wanderer."

"Traffic..... Go ahead Wanderer."

"Traffic... Wanderer. Requesting departure from Jack London Square at 1700 hrs. 37 persons on board. We will be transiting Echo Span (Bay Bridge) to the Golden Gate Bridge, taking Blossom Rock to Port. Return Jack London Square 2000 hours. Over"

"Wanderer.... Traffic. Copy 37 POB and 1700 departure. Be advised the vessel Hapag Crate will be departing Berth 37 at 1800 hours. Check in at the number two marker"(I forget the marker, but just outside Alameda ships channel).

VTS would advise of any ships coming in or our of the estuary. When I'd check in, they would advise I'd any ships traffic in or out.

At end of trip, I'd check out with VTS in same way.

If you wanted to hail them, would suggest similar approach, but a bit less truncated. "Vessel Traffic. This is Motoryacht Weebles southbound on approach to San Francisco sea buoy." Assuming VTS operates same as before AIS, they would be happy to give you inbond and outbound commercial traffic.

Peter
 
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Now that we know Russia can defeat GPS, what's next, Loran, LoranC or eLoran ???
 
When I was driving a dinner cruise boat in San Francisco Bay - long before AIS, I would hail VTS with very compact comms.

"Traffic...... Wanderer."

"Traffic..... Go ahead Wanderer."

"Traffic... Wanderer. Requesting departure from Jack London Square at 1700 hrs. 37 persons on board. We will be transiting Echo Span (Bay Bridge) to the Golden Gate Bridge, taking Blossom Rock to Port. Return Jack London Square 2000 hours. Over"

"Wanderer.... Traffic. Copy 37 POB and 1700 departure. Be advised the vessel Hapag Crate will be departing Berth 37 at 1800 hours. Check in at the number two marker"(I forget the marker, but just outside Alameda ships channel).

VTS would advise of any ships coming in or our of the estuary. When I'd check in, they would advise I'd any ships traffic in or out.

At end of trip, I'd check out with VTS in same way.

If you wanted to hail them, would suggest similar approach, but a bit less truncated. "Vessel Traffic. This is Motoryacht Weebles southbound on approach to San Francisco sea buoy." Assuming VTS operates same as before AIS, they would be happy to give you inbond and outbound commercial traffic.

Peter


Peter,


Thanks, your post makes it easy. The info and manual I downloaded doesn't mention this basic stuff.



Next time I'm out in or crossing the shipping channels, I'm going to call them and get the feel of it. Would be handy, especially in the fog.
 
Now that we know Russia can defeat GPS, what's next, Loran, LoranC or eLoran ???


OldDan,


Loran is long gone. You "could" get yourself an ADF (low freq) receiver that points to a radio station and using two stations be able to at least find out about where you are. Horrible for setting up a track unless you're going two or from.

Next would be with a sexton... but that's our of my training skills.

And you can get a really good look at land around you with your radar.



So there's ways to get the job done.
 
You know we will scrap everything we now have eventually for something newer and better. 5G chart plotters or maybe 6G?
 
An amusing inadvertent use of the word "sexton" which means a member of clergy responsible for church and GRAVEYARD maintenance. Will not help as much a sextant!!
 
OldDan,


Loran is long gone. You "could" get yourself an ADF (low freq) receiver that points to a radio station and using two stations be able to at least find out about where you are. Horrible for setting up a track unless you're going two or from.

Next would be with a sexton... but that's our of my training skills.

And you can get a really good look at land around you with your radar.

So there's ways to get the job done.

Yup, LORAN is shut down. I think in the middle to late 60s. EVERYONE seems to be relying on GPS.
Sweden (?) has experienced the loss of GPS and attribute it to Russia.
Soooo, what's a plane going to do??
With recreational boats, a different story. Use your last know position and precede or retreat cautiously. I know we all write down our position hourly and have reasonably updated charts. Oh wait, you dont? Screwed again. LOL

Sextant? Yes, I have one. I dont have the skill to use it. SIGH
 
From Wikipedia..

.In November 2009, the United States Coast Guard announced that Loran-C was not needed by the U.S. for maritime navigation. This decision left the fate of LORAN and eLORAN in the United States to the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.[33] Per a subsequent announcement, the US Coast Guard, in accordance with the DHS Appropriations Act, terminated the transmission of all U.S. Loran-C signals on 8 February 2010.[2] On 1 August 2010 the U.S. transmission of the Russian American signal was terminated,[2] and on 3 August 2010 all Canadian signals were shut down by the USCG and the CCG.[2][3]

The European Union had decided that the potential security advantages of Loran are worthy not only of keeping the system operational, but upgrading it and adding new stations. This is part of the wider Eurofix system which combines GPS, Galileo and nine Loran stations into a single integrated system.

However, in 2014, Norway and France both announced that all of their remaining transmitters, which make up a significant part of the Eurofix system, would be shut down on 31 December 2015.[34] The two remaining transmitters in Europe (Anthorn, UK and Sylt, Germany) would no longer be able to sustain a positioning and navigation Loran service, with the result that the UK announced its trial eLoran service would be discontinued from the same date.
 
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