An interesting development

[OldDan1943]

This most definitely off the boating subject but it is an example of arriving at the dock needing a ‘recharge’ and prior planning.
I read an article about steam locomotives and sort of a hybrid philosophy. I do believe it occurs in the RR yards in the UK and ‘yard’ engines. These engines are designed to move loads around the yard and ‘building’ trains. The locomotives would be ‘charged’ with high pressure steam….guessing 1200psi, based upon the projected usage. The engine would spend the work day, chugging around the yard, moving and shifting various loads. At the end of the work period, the locomotive, no more steam, sits at a recharging station waiting on the next ‘work period’ and ‘charging’. With proper planning, it could be applied to recreational boating. Pretty neat, eh? Sure would lighten the boat, no generators, no main engine, space for extra batteries etc. Yup, still lots of ‘holes’.

 

[Northern Spy]

People gripe about ABYC codes. Can't imagine ASME BPVC, B31, NBIC and the like for a pleasure craft.

 

[phillippeterson]

Here is a sane system for combo diesel/electric.

 

[JWellington]

This most definitely off the boating subject but it is an example of arriving at the dock needing a ‘recharge’ and prior planning.
I read an article about steam locomotives and sort of a hybrid philosophy. I do believe it occurs in the RR yards in the UK and ‘yard’ engines. These engines are designed to move loads around the yard and ‘building’ trains. The locomotives would be ‘charged’ with high pressure steam….guessing 1200psi, based upon the projected usage. The engine would spend the work day, chugging around the yard, moving and shifting various loads. At the end of the work period, the locomotive, no more steam, sits at a recharging station waiting on the next ‘work period’ and ‘charging’. With proper planning, it could be applied to recreational boating. Pretty neat, eh? Sure would lighten the boat, no generators, no main engine, space for extra batteries etc. Yup, still lots of ‘holes’.

Turns out they all reject steam, for electric.

 

[JWellington]

Here is a sane system for combo diesel/electric.

Thanks for showing YET ANOTHER one! This one is in 'parallel, rather than in series, like some of the other ones.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks for showing YET ANOTHER one! This one is in 'parallel, rather than in series, like some of the other ones.

That one is a sailboat though, which seems like a good use case for the current tech. On a sailboat, the sails are primary propulsion, so ideally the electric drive will cover most of your needs with the diesel being there pretty much as a backup. And it looks like that setup mechanically couples the diesel to the prop at times anyway, which means it has far lower drive losses in that mode.

 

[JWellington]

Of all the electric boats out there already, here is YET ANOTHER interesting one, the ZEN50, a carbon fibre cataran. 16Kw of solar, and huge battery banks. One version has not a drop of any fuel at all. Another version is available with a modern, automated wing sail. With this version you can circumnavitate the world, without a drop of fuel. For those who are paranoid, they will install a genset if you want.
Thus, in the version witout genset , who will try to say it doesnt get good milage? Who will say its not zero emissions,?

 

[backinblue]

Maybe they should have figured out the answer to their own question "Why has nobody done this before?"

 

[JWellington]

Maybe they should have figured out the answer to their own question "Why has nobody done this before?"

They do say, and it turns out the tech wasnt as advanced. Not just the solar panels, and battery banks, but all the electric controller stuff. And it keeps getting better. The Damen company says their modern military submarines are way bettervthan the old ones. Apparently the Swedish and German sub
marinecbuilders do too. Not sure if the american, what is it...General Dynamics, Electric Boat company does too. But ill bet theyre better as well.

 

[PierreR]

JWellington, the big elephant in the room that everyone else sees, is that all of these designs are not economical, market driven solutions. The are all politically driven legislative driven solutions. When you enter that realm, you are outside of common sense and good engineering.

 

[JWellington]

JWellington, the big elephant in the room that everyone else sees, is that all of these designs are not economical, market driven solutions. The are all politically driven legislative driven solutions. When you enter that realm, you are outside of common sense and good engineering.

I dont believe that all those countries are being mandated by their governments. And I see no evidence of such. They did research, experimented, tested, and now are building them, and customers are buying them..

 

[JWellington]

Three more hybrids just sold.
https://www.damen.com/insights-cent...ns-contracts-with-damen-for-3-hybrid-fcs-2710

 

[backinblue]

JWellington, the big elephant in the room that everyone else sees, is that all of these designs are not economical, market driven solutions. The are all politically driven legislative driven solutions. When you enter that realm, you are outside of common sense and good engineering.

Good summary. If I could add one thing. If electric could easily replace diesel in an economic and viable way, why haven't elecrtic tractor trailors taken over? Bigger market and better infrastructure than boats. I know some companies are building them but the range is roughly 200 miles. That won't fit the use case of most tractor trailers and hard to make a business case for.

 

[JWellington]

Even a Scottish company bought a hybrid boat.
https://www.moenmarin.no/en/inverlussa-acquires-their-first-hybrid-catamaran/

 

[JWellington]

Good summary. If I could add one thing. If electric could easily replace diesel in an economic and viable way, why haven't elecrtic tractor trailors taken over? Bigger market and better infrastructure than boats. I know some companies are building them but the range is roughly 200 miles. That won't fit the use case of most tractor trailers and hard to make a business case for.

I dont remember anybody say, "easily replace". But even for trucks , some companies are working on it. I think i read Walmart just bought a few hundred delivery trucks, then theres Tesla, etc. And in ships, its more advanced.

 

[backinblue]

I dont remember anybody say, "easily replace". But even for trucks , some companies are working on it. I think i read Walmart just bought a few hundred delivery trucks, then theres Tesla, etc. And in ships, its more advanced.

OK maybe easily isn't the right word. Perhaps "resonably" or "realistically" is more appropriate. I disagree that electric boats are more advanced than a Tesla, and let's not bring nuclear subs into the discussion because that's apples and oranges.

Also, a local delivery van for Walmart might make sense as an EV but not quite the same as a long-haul tractor trailer use case. Just like my electric outboard is great for my dinghy for short trips to the beach, but I still wouldn't trade the diesel in my boat for electric as primary propulsion.

 

[Art]

Unfortunate but True:

Number of human lives [8 billion] on this planet and myriad of nature-abusive actions taken therein and therefrom is the most egregious condition of pollution on Earth.

If civilization could scale down to about 500 million... well there's the answer! LOL

 

[JWellington]

OK maybe easily isn't the right word. Perhaps "resonably" or "realistically" is more appropriate. I disagree that electric boats are more advanced than a Tesla, and let's not bring nuclear subs into the discussion because that's apples and oranges.

Also, a local delivery van for Walmart might make sense as an EV but not quite the same as a long-haul tractor trailer use case. Just like my electric outboard is great for my dinghy for short trips to the beach, but I still wouldn't trade the diesel in my boat for electric as primary propulsion.

Thanks for conceding that nobody ever said "easily". I think Elon Must said, worth trying out, worth experimentin on.
In boats, the HH 44 posted above, already cross the atlantic, and others have as well.

 

[JWellington]

Unfortunate but True:

Number of human lives [8 billion] on this planet and myriad of nature-abusive actions taken therein and therefrom is the most egregious condition of pollution on Earth.

If civilization could scale down to about 500 million... well there's the answer! LOL

Then you should be please that these hybrid boats pollute less.

 

[mvweebles]

..... these designs are not economical, market driven solutions. The are all politically driven legislative driven solutions. When you enter that realm, you are outside of common sense and good engineering.

The sailboat catamaran video of an HH is, I think, the same brand the folks on "Gone with the Wynns" are going with for their build. The Cruising World article Steve D linked up-thread mentions three examples, one of which being Vagabond sail who are also going with an electric build. To Pierre's point, there is an agenda for these early adopters, though not legislative - there is likely a marketing angle behind the scenes. I'm sure HH will sell at least a few extra boats to one of the Wynns 400k subscribers (guessing Vagabond has twice as many, if not more).

As Ralifkin noted, sail is a perfect use-case for battery-dependent vessel. The answer to "why hasn't anyone done this before" is simple. It has been done before - Duffy Boats has been making electric launches for over 50 years. Scale and range has been limited due to battery technology which is now rapidly changing. Now, challenge seems to be ability to recharge (an offshoot of range) - either onboard generation or dockside power availability. These are major barriers for a powerboat compared to a sailboat. Of interest, the HH video describes a 40kw battery - similar to an EV. But underway, I believe they said it was only good for a couple hours - and even for an incredibly efficient hull form. Fine for sail, not fine for power (except the Duffy use case).

In the end, there are a lot of external forces in the market including legislative, and technology has made some step-improvements in batteries. Many challenges remain but in my mind, one thing is clear: the future holds more alternative energy propulsion and less internal combustion. There are headwinds for alternative energy to be sure, but there are also tailwinds and momentum. For hydrocarbons there are only headwinds and legacy.

Peter

 

[Northern Spy]

Here's a question for a submariner- if not for nuclear power, what new battery and diesel systems would be in use today given current technology? Would today's tech be reflected by faster submerged speed, greater range or greater reliability?

Speed, range, and reliability...

Hard to make a case against nuclear subs using the parameters of speed, range, and reliability.

Diesel electric submarines make a lot of sense for countries with littoral defence as their primary purpose. But because of stealth, not because of speed or range. The Europeans have made some really innovative submarines, but only for (relatively) short duration patrols.

Reliability? Wouldn't guess, I have read recently that the bathtub curve for electronics are more affected by the Weibull distribution of board component and material rather than just the simple infant mortality we've been led to believe it for the last twenty or so years.

I say that as most of the new technological benefits are electronic and not mechanical.

 

[rslifkin]

FWIW, one of my slip neighbors converted his sailboat to electric a couple of years ago. He only installed enough battery for something like 25nm of motoring range at a reasonable speed, but he's been happy with the setup so far.

 

[JWellington]

https://dataintelo.com/report/hybrid-boats-market/

 

[JWellington]

Somebody mentioned a sailed conversion. Thats happening more and more too.
https://www.nordicinnovation.org/news/meet-opal-worlds-first-retrofitted-plugin-hybrid-sail-boat

 

[backinblue]

FWIW, one of my slip neighbors converted his sailboat to electric a couple of years ago. He only installed enough battery for something like 25nm of motoring range at a reasonable speed, but he's been happy with the setup so far.

For most recreational sailors 25nm should be a reasonable range. In the sailboats I owned over they years, I doubt I've ever motored that far at one time. I wasn't crossing oceans but local day sailing or cruising to nearby harbors. I'd only motor when I couldn't sail and my destination normally wasn't outside of that range.

 

[backinblue]

Somebody mentioned a sailed conversion. Thats happening more and more too.
https://www.nordicinnovation.org/news/meet-opal-worlds-first-retrofitted-plugin-hybrid-sail-boat

But boats like that used to cross oceans with no motor, hence more green than even electric, so in some ways it's gone backwards, not advanced.

 

[JWellington]

For most recreational sailors 25nm should be a reasonable range. In the sailboats I owned over they years, I doubt I've ever motored that far at one time. I wasn't crossing oceans but local day sailing or cruising to nearby harbors. I'd only motor when I couldn't sail and my destination normally wasn't outside of that range.

Yes, and we always see studies about how most sail boats arent realling sailing much, but are in poet, partyinhg with others. And when the move to the next marina, they mostly motor.

 

[backinblue]

Yes, and we always see studies about how most sail boats arent realling sailing much, but are in poet, partyinhg with others. And when the move to the next marina, they mostly motor.

I'd agree if you said "some" instead of "most" if you want to argue grammar. In my own experience and observations, I don't see most sailboats motoring most of the time.

 

[Northern Spy]

I dont believe that all those countries are being mandated by their governments. And I see no evidence of such. They did research, experimented, tested, and now are building them, and customers are buying them..

Not yet, but there are incentives by the EU CFP for member states to have an increased quota based upon energy consumption.

"Within the fishing opportunities allocated to them, Member States shall endeavour to provide incentives to fishing vessels deploying selective fishing gear or using fishing techniques with reduced environmental impact, such as reduced energy consumption or habitat damage."

 

[JWellington]

But boats like that used to cross oceans with no motor, hence more green than even electric, so in some ways it's gone backwards, not advanced.

Most people who like sailboats refuse to havecthem with only sails, and for many good rrasons.