Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

A few decades ago a Canadian exploration geologist named Chuck Fipke was intrigued with kimberlites that were found in western Canada. With his own skills, money and shoe leather he started walking upstream, hundreds of miles spread over several years.

Geez, who is crazy enough to think diamonds could be found in the Canadian tundra. Yup, hope mixed in with legendary skills allowed Fipke to eventually find the pipes in the Northwest Territories. Several multi billion dollar operations resulted.

The resource industry is filled with these stories. I and others on TF have worked with these guys, whether in minerals, oil and gas or making energy via tar sands or wind farms. I experienced it first hand; these visionaries just did it and you either run to keep up with them or surrender your slot to a faster runner.

Amadeus said:

They are all risk takers, as well as innovators. The availability of conventional financing is inversely proportional to the degree of innovation in the project. Many committed successful business owners have guaranteed unconventional loans with everything they owned, and sometimes stuff they didn't. A mis-step causes complete financial ruin.

Click to expand...

....and I'm sure they did everything they did to prep and reduce risk. And I'm sure they did a bunch of stuff in parallel (I know Elon Musk is a tyrant for that). No idea how that's a bad thing. But so be it.

I agree with Twistedtree and MVweebles. Sorta.

A lot depends on the skills, experience and mindset that a late starting boating person or couple has.

When I was a boat driving instructor, I had many, many couples buying 50' to 70' boats as their first that were able to successfully learn the skills required and boat safely. It usually begins with a several day orientation with the boat and docking maneuverers, followed up with additional training as the client gain confidence and proficiency.

The time required to get a client up to speed is dependent on the client’s experience, size of boat and their intentions with the boat. Time required varied from 2 days to several months. One couple took off from the PNW and transited Panama Canal to do the loop and other destinations 14 months after buying the boat, training and about 100 hours cruising the PNW. Another does the trip to Alaska every year. Many past big boat clients have had a successful, enjoyable, safe boating lifestyle.

There were not so successful clients too.

Had a client who bought a 50' OA for their first boat and required a check out by insurance. Spent over 40 hours and he was unable to calm down enough to handle the boat safely without running into things in the marina. He was a very excitable person. He refused to pay me for my “incompetent instruction” hired another instructor and spent another 24 hours with no improvement and refused to pay him too. Last I heard, he sold the OA.

Another bought a new 42' NP for first boat and a check out was required by insurance. He learned quickly and I was able to sign him off in 16 hours. I asked him where their first weekend destination will be and he replied San Juans, wife replied Poulsbo. Their boat was in Seattle. I suggested he start short distance cruising in calm weather to get his wife and kids acclimated. Six months later his wife called me and said the boat was for sale. Apparently, the husband did not heed weather reports or my advice and took the family out in not so calm conditions too many times, to the point the wife refused to set foot on the boat from fear of safety for the kids and her. He was a stubborn SOB.

One bought a 56’ something or other, previous boat a 16’ lake boat and he had to get a check out. This guy was an early Microsoft software engineer, who had started an internet company and had money that started with a B. He barely passed check out after 64 hours of instruction. He was an absolute klutz but he was only going to use the boat on Lake Washington on day trips.

Four months later, he called me and said that he bought a super-fast 92’ Italian boat and needed to get checked out for insurance. To show how much money this guy had, the dock in front of his Lake Washington home was not long enough and the water was too shallow for the 92. When he could not find close moorage for the boat, he buys a $12 M waterfront house near him just for the deep water and longer dock but left the house empty!

So we went out to get him checked out on the 92 and it was obvious to both of us that there was no way I was going to let this guy drive around in the 92 after two weeks. I found him a full time captain to hire.

Another client orders a new Selene 50 something after spending many years perusing the internet, getting instruction and chartering a similar boat several summers. Two months before the boat arrived, he buys a genuine Shelby Cobra and decides to sell the boat before he even gets it because he could not afford both!

Another bought a used N46 for a first boat to do around the world after hearing the Sinks describe their adventures at a Trawler fest. After getting checked out successfully, they spent two years doing a lot of unnecessary projects on the boat, buying unnecessary equipment, redoing things to his preference and overcomplicating the boat. They spent very little time honing their skills or going out in rough seas to learn skills or get acclimated. He was an engineer and enjoyed researching and discussing technical aspects of boating more than actual boating. They did not want to depart until the boat was perfect.

They finally departed the PNW to start their around the world adventure but wanted to stop at Dana Point to get some work done by Nordhaven. I offered to come along but they were getting tight on funds after spending too much money on refitting and could not afford me.

The Pacific Ocean wore them down and scared the crap out of them. They put the boat up for sale at Dana Point.

Another one spent 5 years studying and planning and saving for a world cruiser when he hired me. He was not a young man. I suggested he purchase a used boat and skip the wait and start cruising immediately. He chartered a similar boat two summers. He ordered a N50 something 2 years after he hired me. He died three months after he ordered.

I have many more stories of successes and failures.

Go buy a boat, take the time to learn how to boat, cruise, and enjoy life NOW!

Waiting for the right time, enough money, the right boat, a perfect boat, may use up the time you have left to enjoy the boat.

You may consider as well the Selene brand in your search

D

PointDoc said:

Hello,

My wife and I are preparing to retire and travel. Have considered rv'ing, but wish to do more! Our sailing resume is short, but doing our work to prepare for this journey.


Desire is favoring coastal travel (home is the Seattle area), but would not like to be restricted to the point that we could not travel worldly (shipping vessel would be an option).

My list is as follows: KK, Nordhavn and Diesel Duck; Fleming, OR, Offshore, Horizon, Hampton; Shannon 52 RDP and N56.



I like the KK in particular for the hull shape;

I wonder if the hull shape contributed to this article? Or maybe another way to ask is would a different hull shape contributed to a different topic write-up?

Nordy knocked down to 69°

Nordhavn 52, Dirona, is mostly having a very enjoyable time on their travels. James and Jennifer came from the PNW and have a very well written and photo-documented blog at MV Dirona Recent Locations Travel Log Map So, a few days ago with a 25-30 kn southerly blowing they were at the east end...

www.trawlerforum.com

As many times I go through my list and adjust for the given priorities, the Shannon 52 RDP remains;

As of today KK, Fleming, Shannon 52RDP and possibly the N62 are top of my list. This list is fluid depending on the depth of my search and priority order. The reason for KK is the hull shape, economy and living quarters, resale. Fleming is the engineering, redundancies, history, resale, living quarters are marginal when compared to a Nordhavn/KK, but acceptable, I also favor the low profile and lower cg. Shannon is having sails as an option and economy, also I find a sailboat attractive, dual engines, U.S. built, quality, but living arrangements above/below is very marginal. N63 whats not to like about this vessel other than it is dated and free space is marginal in the engine area, also I found the passage ways and staircase narrow.


If a comment/observation I have made does not seem reasonable, please bear with me as I go through this journey and any thoughts will be read repeatedly and appreciated!




~PD

Click to expand...

syjos - great post, thank you!

Airstream345 said:

syjos - great post, thank you!

Click to expand...

Steve,

We got screwed out of seeing your boat at the BW rendezevous by C19, maybe next year.

You were able to sell the BW? Where did it go?

PointDoc said:

Hello,

My wife and I are preparing to retire and travel. Have considered rv'ing, but wish to do more! Our sailing resume is short, but doing our work to prepare for this journey.


Desire is favoring coastal travel (home is the Seattle area), but would not like to be restricted to the point that we could not travel worldly (shipping vessel would be an option).

My list is as follows: KK, Nordhavn and Diesel Duck; Fleming, OR, Offshore, Horizon, Hampton; Shannon 52 RDP and N56.



I like the KK in particular for the hull shape;

I wonder if the hull shape contributed to this article? Or maybe another way to ask is would a different hull shape contributed to a different topic write-up?

Nordy knocked down to 69°

Nordhavn 52, Dirona, is mostly having a very enjoyable time on their travels. James and Jennifer came from the PNW and have a very well written and photo-documented blog at MV Dirona Recent Locations Travel Log Map So, a few days ago with a 25-30 kn southerly blowing they were at the east end...

www.trawlerforum.com

As many times I go through my list and adjust for the given priorities, the Shannon 52 RDP remains;

As of today KK, Fleming, Shannon 52RDP and possibly the N62 are top of my list. This list is fluid depending on the depth of my search and priority order. The reason for KK is the hull shape, economy and living quarters, resale. Fleming is the engineering, redundancies, history, resale, living quarters are marginal when compared to a Nordhavn/KK, but acceptable, I also favor the low profile and lower cg. Shannon is having sails as an option and economy, also I find a sailboat attractive, dual engines, U.S. built, quality, but living arrangements above/below is very marginal. N63 whats not to like about this vessel other than it is dated and free space is marginal in the engine area, also I found the passage ways and staircase narrow.


If a comment/observation I have made does not seem reasonable, please bear with me as I go through this journey and any thoughts will be read repeatedly and appreciated!




~PD

Click to expand...

So, back to OP (newest incarnation of OP). For serious coastal cruising, which I consider PNW to Maine to be, there are a wide array of options that get shut off of ocean crossing is included.

My criteria.

1. 1500 nm range. I pick this for no great reason other than it gets me from PNW to Socal, then to alcapulco, them to Panama, then to Florida. Not saying I wouldn't stop, but I wouldn't be sweating over fuel either. Downside is that's a lot of fuel to carry of you're not using it.

2. Stabilization. My Willard 36 has hydraulic fins, but I probably should have considered para vanes more closely.

3. Engine room with adequate size for stuff. Mine is super tight. A Willard 40 would have been better, but Ive owned my boat for 22 years and I decided the boat I have is the one I'll go with. Plus it's an iconic design and I'm sort of a retro guy.

4. Bridge clearance. I do not want to rule out the Loop. I think 16 feet shuts off part of the loop, 19 feet and there is no loop. Something like that. I will be at 14 feet.

5. Electronics. This is where many get wrapped around the axle. My philosophy is to keep the networks minimized, and reduce the number of IP Addresses on the boat. The appeal of wireless is seductive. I work in tech so I have a reverse reaction. I don't want it. But personal choice.

6. Size. Most folks want a large, house like feel. We don't. If we started from scratch, would have a second stateroom, but again, we will dance with who we have..

7. Sedan. I spent several years as a full time delivery captain. You'd think I'd love pilot houses. I do when I'm underway, but at anchor, not so much. I like sedans. PH are somewhat close. I guess when the boat gets over 60 feet, the PH has its own deck sometimes. But in the end, having a dedicated control house just isn't that important to me. Underway less than 5%of the time. Not worth the cost and east.

8. Flybridge. Really personal decision. We will spend a lot of time at anchor on warm, moist weather. Enclosed flybridge is awful for our tastes. Hard top vs Bimini is great.

9. Protected running gear. Especially because we will be in Florida and Bahamas.

10. Get home. Would be nice. No room so not an option. I guess some twins would be decent.

My dreamboat is probably a Willard 40. Because I like the engine room. The defever 44 +5 is also a nice boat. The DDs are okay but not enough outdoor space and the interior is a bit cave like for my tastes.

But honestly, there are a ton of boats I'd do the trip in. I recently saw a Defever 40 single engine trawler for in Florida. Couple had cruised her from San Diego over 2 years and were ready for an RV. Simple boat at $50k asking price. Several years ago when I did the Baja Ha Ha, I met a couple of ex Sailors on a Hershine 37 trunk cabin trawler. Another simple boat that easily made it to Cabo, over 1000 nms from LA where they started. They were on an open ended cruise, probably Similar to one well be doing.

Very long post to say the boat matters less than just going. I know, sounds opposite to my recent posts, but not really. Get a boat with decent accommodation and not too many baubles. And go. There are a million reasons not to go. There are many, many $100k boats capable of this trip. Invest in yourself, not the boat (says the guy who's doing a major refit on a 50 year old boat).

syjos said:

I agree with Twistedtree and MVweebles. Sorta.

A lot depends on the skills, experience and mindset that a late starting boating person or couple has.

When I was a boat driving instructor, I had many, many couples buying 50' to 70' boats as their first that were able to successfully learn the skills required and boat safely. It usually begins with a several day orientation with the boat and docking maneuverers, followed up with additional training as the client gain confidence and proficiency.

The time required to get a client up to speed is dependent on the client’s experience, size of boat and their intentions with the boat. Time required varied from 2 days to several months. One couple took off from the PNW and transited Panama Canal to do the loop and other destinations 14 months after buying the boat, training and about 100 hours cruising the PNW. Another does the trip to Alaska every year. Many past big boat clients have had a successful, enjoyable, safe boating lifestyle.

There were not so successful clients too.

Had a client who bought a 50' OA for their first boat and required a check out by insurance. Spent over 40 hours and he was unable to calm down enough to handle the boat safely without running into things in the marina. He was a very excitable person. He refused to pay me for my “incompetent instruction” hired another instructor and spent another 24 hours with no improvement and refused to pay him too. Last I heard, he sold the OA.

Another bought a new 42' NP for first boat and a check out was required by insurance. He learned quickly and I was able to sign him off in 16 hours. I asked him where their first weekend destination will be and he replied San Juans, wife replied Poulsbo. Their boat was in Seattle. I suggested he start short distance cruising in calm weather to get his wife and kids acclimated. Six months later his wife called me and said the boat was for sale. Apparently, the husband did not heed weather reports or my advice and took the family out in not so calm conditions too many times, to the point the wife refused to set foot on the boat from fear of safety for the kids and her. He was a stubborn SOB.

One bought a 56’ something or other, previous boat a 16’ lake boat and he had to get a check out. This guy was an early Microsoft software engineer, who had started an internet company and had money that started with a B. He barely passed check out after 64 hours of instruction. He was an absolute klutz but he was only going to use the boat on Lake Washington on day trips.

Four months later, he called me and said that he bought a super-fast 92’ Italian boat and needed to get checked out for insurance. To show how much money this guy had, the dock in front of his Lake Washington home was not long enough and the water was too shallow for the 92. When he could not find close moorage for the boat, he buys a $12 M waterfront house near him just for the deep water and longer dock but left the house empty!

So we went out to get him checked out on the 92 and it was obvious to both of us that there was no way I was going to let this guy drive around in the 92 after two weeks. I found him a full time captain to hire.

Another client orders a new Selene 50 something after spending many years perusing the internet, getting instruction and chartering a similar boat several summers. Two months before the boat arrived, he buys a genuine Shelby Cobra and decides to sell the boat before he even gets it because he could not afford both!

Another bought a used N46 for a first boat to do around the world after hearing the Sinks describe their adventures at a Trawler fest. After getting checked out successfully, they spent two years doing a lot of unnecessary projects on the boat, buying unnecessary equipment, redoing things to his preference and overcomplicating the boat. They spent very little time honing their skills or going out in rough seas to learn skills or get acclimated. He was an engineer and enjoyed researching and discussing technical aspects of boating more than actual boating. They did not want to depart until the boat was perfect.

They finally departed the PNW to start their around the world adventure but wanted to stop at Dana Point to get some work done by Nordhaven. I offered to come along but they were getting tight on funds after spending too much money on refitting and could not afford me.

The Pacific Ocean wore them down and scared the crap out of them. They put the boat up for sale at Dana Point.

Another one spent 5 years studying and planning and saving for a world cruiser when he hired me. He was not a young man. I suggested he purchase a used boat and skip the wait and start cruising immediately. He chartered a similar boat two summers. He ordered a N50 something 2 years after he hired me. He died three months after he ordered.

I have many more stories of successes and failures.

Go buy a boat, take the time to learn how to boat, cruise, and enjoy life NOW!

Waiting for the right time, enough money, the right boat, a perfect boat, may use up the time you have left to enjoy the boat.

Click to expand...

Writing the previous post, finally struck me that there are a few things you simply cannot know without experiencing them.

1. Overnight runs. Multiple overnight runs. Some folks love them, most don't. Some are willing to adapt, many won't. Let's face it, it's scarier at night.

2. Being at anchor vs being at a marina. Dream vs reality.

3. Rough seas. Especially at night. Again, some adapt, others don't want to.

4. Fixing stuff. Some folks are mechanically inclined, others aren't. I am but am increasingly put off by maintenance so simple is better.

5. Style of boat. Sedan, pilot house, etc. I know, this is a trawler list and PHs are exalted space, but not everyone wants one. I personally prefer sedans as I find them nicer at anchor, which is over 95% of the time even for active cruisers.

6. Space. Will the kids and neighbors really show up? OldDan gavr a decent example where he chose wrong.... Twice

My point is that the table top exercise is interesting but until you have some sense of how you'll use the boat and how it fits you personally,, brand makes little difference. I was off on a sidetrack about seamanship skills which I still believe, but in the end, until you've spent some time out there, there are questions which cannot be answered.

syjos said:

Steve,

We got screwed out of seeing your boat at the BW rendezevous by C19, maybe next year.

You were able to sell the BW? Where did it go?

Click to expand...

I know, super bummed but I'm sure we'll find you out there some day soon.

Sold the Bluewater quickly to a marina neighbor who had admired her as soon as we brought her home. Worked out pretty well for everyone. They have a look and capabilities that really appeal to certain people.

Here's a quick pic of our "moving day" from the BW to the KK54.

Airstream345 said:

Sold the Bluewater quickly to a marina neighbor who had admired her as soon as we brought her home. Worked out pretty well for everyone. They have a look and capabilities that really appeal to certain people.

Click to expand...

Jeez! The BW looks puny next to the K

Lifetime warranty until the marina neighbor moves?

A friend sold his 34' boat to his non boating next door neighbor and encourages the neighbor to join his yacht club. My friend now spends time at YC cruises fixing things on the old boat out of guilt. He sold the boat to buy a newer boat in order to boat more, work on it less!

You probably should'nt have any worries since your buyer is a boater and your BW looked in pretty good condition when you bought it, from the videos posted on FB. And the roof replacement solved the leaking issues so the buyer got a pretty good boat.

My friends boat was a mess. It was his fathers boat that he inherited and was unable to stay ahead of the repairs.

Really good points to consider from MVWeebles above. We can't give you the answer to the "what boat" question, but we can give you the questions to ask yourself.


Re Pilot House, to me it's all about whether you plan to do many night passages. I see a pilot house as akin to a dark room, for us old timers who still know what a dark room is (was). You need lights-out while the rest of the boat wants light-on, and hence need separate, isolated spaces.


There also is a boat-size factor. Below around 50' I think you only want to allocate space to a pilot house if you will really need a pilot house. Above around 50' you start to have the space for the PH to both be an operations center AND a place for others to hang out. It becomes like the kitchen in a house, i.e. the place where everyone ends up hanging out. In that case it can actually be a really nice place for everyone while underway with great visibility, etc.

The newbie wants us to tell/guide him on what boat to buy?
I’m still trying to decide if I should by Apple stock at $1.35/share.
I think we are both missing out.

Simi 60 said:

The rest of us need to be a bit smarter with our hard earned.

Click to expand...

Of course the above is absolutely true for most who agonize over decisions like which boat to buy. But getting back to the Gates, Musks & Ray Krocs of the world, I don't care what anyone says, I have studied those guys like you can't believe and actually applied some of their philosophies! They certainly worked for me but there has been one component missing from this thread and that is "perseverance." I don't care how smart or well financed you are, there will be times when things look very bleak and those that gut it out are the ones that reap the rewards. I think that really applies to buying a boat. Pick one you like, jump in and buy it and deal with the "oh shits" because they are definitely going to be there! (Regardless of which boat you decide on.)

PointDoc, you may already know this but there are owners' organizations for most of
the boats you are interested in. There is probably no better way to narrow down your
choices than to get on board and talk to the owners of these boats which the owners
groups or certain brokers might facilitate. Additionally, once you buy one the owners
group will be there to help you get the most out of the boat.

I am sure you have gotten more info than you ever expected and no, I did not read it all but if you are still listening here is my advice. I have been chartering boats over the past eight years, everything from a 29' Ranger Tug to helping transport a 70' Offshore from CA to Bellingham, WA. In-between I chartered a 55 Fleming and I have to say, if you can afford one, get it. Absolutely an amazing boat with redundancy everywhere. I would feel comfortable going anywhere in a Fleming.

Amadeus said:

..... Long distance passagemaking is not rocket science and contemporary technology makes it much easier. If PointDoc has the cash he should buy the boat he wants. Move aboard and hire a pro to help him cruise and learn the ropes. In a couple of months he'll know enough to get out on his own and learn by experience. He'll be out there having a great time and he'll be challenging himself constantly - the ultimate rush.

For some, time is way more precious than cash. Putting off a dream to "pay your dues" as defined by someone else, burns time and opportunity. If you've got it, spend it; you can't take it with you. Trade experiences for cash if you can. We don't live forever.

Click to expand...

Totally agree with that, especially the statement I have highlighted. It really worries me the number of folk who come on here, and talk about when they retire, they will do this or that, and asking for advice on which boat to buy, etc.

If my wife and I had waited until we retired, which was only 18 months ago, we would have missed out on the 16 years of pleasure we had from our modest vessel, (all we could afford), as my wife has developed a medical condition which now precludes her from any boating activity - even an ocean cruise on a liner would be a major challenge. Especially now with Covid lurking.

I might add with a wry smile, if I had seen all the amazing advice and other stuff we have on here, and all the horror stories of what can be wrong with buying a used vessel, I think I'd have run a mile. Possibly again, missing out on the fun we had refurbishing an older boat, and the sheer satisfaction that doing just that can bring.

So, my advice is to learn all you can. Take on board the advice and stories, but don't let it discourage you to take on a bit of a challenge all the same. And most of all...do it as soon as you feasibly can, as none of us know what's around life's corners.

PS. I think Walt on Codger2 (#403) summed some of what I've tried to say damn well, when he said...

I don't care how smart or well financed you are, there will be times when things look very bleak and those that gut it out are the ones that reap the rewards. I think that really applies to buying a boat. Pick one you like, jump in and buy it and deal with the "oh shits" because they are definitely going to be there! (Regardless of which boat you decide on.) I like that Walt, and so true...

I’m a bit concerned about the following post so apologize to start. Just spent an hour reading this thread and learned some but also thought “that’s just not true” more than once.
I’m going through the same matrix but on a smaller scale.
1. There’s a difference in build between boats. I had an Outbound 46 built for me launched in 2013. She’s on the level of Hinckley, Morris, Oyster, Hylas. From the get go both the NA and the builder of these stick built boats were aimed at voyaging and passage making. Production boats can do this as well but I’d go to sea in a 30 year example of any of the above and seen production boats rendered unsafe after a single passage.
2. KISS holds true but has become increasingly difficult to do. We have 3 chart plotters, navionics on 2 IPads, open source OPN and other charting on a toughbook and a laptop. In spite of that still carry paper, do DR and carry a cheapo sextant with sight reduction books/sheets.
Know how to triangulate with the Steiners or follow a depth contour with a lead line. T storm comes up the portable electronics go into the stove. In short all the bother about nav is simply not true. BTW with a pencil you can follow a latitude until you sort yourself out. BTW if I blew out an engine I would get on the fleet one or the SSB or worse case set off a epirb. and get help if in mid passage.
99.9% of vessels out there are single screw. Ships have no back up engines. This is changing with self docking ships and more non Panama ships, ULCC, huge container vessels. But just like your mast can fall down single screw shouldn’t be a hang up. Folks have moved on from split rigs a long time ago.
3. On any ocean going vessel you need three spares of everything and enough consumables to last until your next landfall where you know you can resupply Any old landfall just won’t do. Has to be one where you can your needed stuff (best) or have it shipped/flown in in a reasonable time frame. So the big space issue is where to put things and tools. Focus of living, lounging spaces is secondary. Moving things to get to things is a PIA.
4. Coastal is more dangerous then ocean. Even when leaving in a fleet such as the Salty Dawg Rally or ARC a day out you see no one. Have gone from US east coast to Leewards multiple times with never seeing a boat nor ship. Collision avoidance is a not issue. Once you leave the continental shelf it’s a desert. Nothing to hit. No fish, whales nor detritus. Sailing routes rarely match shipping lanes either. Shipping containers aside it’s the hard edges that sink you.
5. Wave height is irrelevant for any boat designed for open waters. It’s the wind waves on top of the swells that are stressful to you and your boat. Period is much more important than height and superimposed trains coming from different angles leading to the washing machine effect more important yet. I’m happy in 3 or 4 meter swells but miserable in wind against wave in the Gulf Stream with a squall coming in from due East.
6. Most people in the world are never alone. Hiking a plane goes overhead. Coastal your cellphone still works as you dodge traffic not following colregs. There’s something totally magical being on watch in the middle of the night with the heavens alight, boat with a bone in her teeth, phosphorescent wake and just the sound of wind and water. Passage is never boring.
7. I’m looking at trawlers and speaking with brokers and it’s like I’m speaking a different language. I’m interested in the AVS (angle of vanishing stability), comfort quotient, gyradius and Gz curve. Sure we’ve come a long way from Beebe but even now weather can be fairly reliably predicted for 3 days, decently for 5 days but past that it’s a crapshoot. My average passage is 1500-2000m so we’re well past 5 days. So you want a boat that can survive a knockdown and self right. I know in my current boat even when singling I can put out a Jordan series drogue button up and survive just about anything. I use a weather router but a days work is 180-200 nm if things go right. So if your voyaging as the OP wants to why aren’t these established numbers available. The Norhavn site gives you hype but no real numbers. For any blue water sailboat you know you want a AVS of at least 120 and 130 is considered good.
8. Good sea berths depend on a lot of things. Without bundleboards doubles are generally worthless. Leeclothes or other confinements are very helpful. Being as close as possible to the center of motion and center of gravity is very helpful but being aft of these is great. My wife spent 16 days on one passage sleeping in the forward queen. She’s only 4’10” so could also align herself perpendicular to the dominant motion and she has a iron stomach but she’s the exception. Also the boat is narrow with a fine entry so doesn’t pound.
9. Ventilation is key if your not doing marina hopping. We’ve spent much of the last 7 years in the tropics. Rarely ran the AC. A good breeze with you wearing wicking synthetics and being in the shade ends up being more comfortable. The boat stays dry so no mold. Fuel use decreases. Noise decreases. Sure the AC goes on immediately when there’s no wind or it’s real muggy.
Going fishing thanks for letting me ventilate.

Hippo,

I read your post and I think you already have the right boat for you.

Optimizing a boat for long offshore passages in bad conditions results in a boat that not many would want for typical cruising. Seems to me a bit like buying a 4x4 truck to drive to the grocery store because it might snow twice a year. But get what you want and enjoy it.

My preference would be: None of the Above. The 462 steel-hulled Seahorse Marine Diesel Duck, to me, would be the perfect passage maker, as its designer, the late George Buehler, designed these boats for passage making from the keel up. As Buehler made his plans available to everyone, even backyarders, it's best to specify Seahorse Marine as the builder. Very few DDs are on the market. Some original owners still have their Ducks after 25 or so years, still going strong. Also, the new 462s are very affordable at under $1 million, and semi-custom built.


See: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2020/seahorse-diesel-duck-462-1175275/

My boats for sale.Unloaded it from the ship today. Signed contract with a broker. I’m moving on and getting a trawler.You guys are stuck with me. I have a great sailboat but want a great trawler. Have a lot to learn and hoping you’ll share your knowledge and experience to help me get there.
With prior boats generated a short list of 3 or 4 I was happy with. Then had the wife pick one. Found that made her feel it was her boat as well as mine. That approach has worked in the past. She only got involved once any boat on that short list was just fine with me.
Long list is:
Norhavn
KK
DD
One off in steel or Al
I’m clueless about which model, and what features are on the definite yes I want it and the no go list. Before building my last boat I had a definite list of things I wanted and list of things if present I knew I didn’t. That allowed me to pick a builder. Final list was Boreal, Outbound and Hylas. Wife picked Outbound. I’ve owned center consoles but am a complete newbie to trawlers. Have helped friends on transits so kind of know what I’m getting into. . So far think I don’t want a semi displacement boat. Fast trawlers are off the list. I have a 50’ slip available to me. So 50’ or below. I want to do the Loop so assume fins or sea keeper would be better than fish. I’m fine with single screw. I fart dust. Took me a year to spec the last boat and a bit over a year for them to build it. Not interested in waiting 2 years again or going through the stresses of a new build. The same brands come up here. But when out cruising saw dutch built boats, polish, French and Italian. Have no knowledge about them all. Would appreciate anybody’s thoughts as to whether their are full displacement trawlers beyond just DD,KK and Norhavn? Thanks

Have also a look at the Selene brand, your wife may like them

Hippocampus said:

. So 50’ or below. I want to do the Loop so assume fins or sea keeper would be better than fish. I’m fine with single screw. I fart dust. Took me a year to spec the last boat and a bit over a year for them to build it. Not interested in waiting 2 years again or going through the stresses of a new build. The same brands come up here. But when out cruising saw dutch built boats, polish, French and Italian. Have no knowledge about them all. Would appreciate anybody’s thoughts as to whether their are full displacement trawlers beyond just DD,KK and Norhavn? Thanks

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Nice Ductch boat recently had a refit. Distress sale, but in San Diego.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/lowland-kotter-long-range-cruiser-trawler-lrc--3544720/

I suggest you look up JMYS.com. They are brokers that specialize in trawlers. They can guide you through the process.
Jeff Merril is the owner.

Anybody know what happened to the OP?

Last post on TF was at the beginning of April.

This thread has been dormant since May.

Duck for Sale

Might be of interest. Info only, not an endorsement.

https://mvmobyduck.com/

The DDs check a lot of boxes. Talked with them. Their NA is a chinese lady who sent me incomprehensible stability numbers. Apparently the chinese use a system all their own.
My only issue is the bride wants to do the loop. Think having fish would increase bridge clearance. Think removing the poles, even if cf, and replacing them would be a pain as well as unstepping the mast. Would prefer fins or sea keepers.
The Dutch boat link is greatly appreciated. Never did the canal. Always wanted to see the lake. Friends said that part was fun but the rest of it a chore. Having just done a shipping from St. Lucia to Newport would estimate an additional $25-30k to get a boat from the Nederland to here. However, similar boats look capable of doing Netherlands-Portugal-Azores-Antigua. Been to the Azores on a invite from the Portuguese government due to a research project on machado Joseph’s disease. It one of my favorite countries. Would be enthralled to go back there and show the wife around. So it’s not out of the range of possibilities.
Have a boat broker who’s a personal friend. Hear what you’re saying about Jeff Merrill. That house does have a good reputation so thanks for that suggestion as well but may use my friend. He’s a US dealer for Zeelander and some other powered craft so knowledgeable but admits trawlers aren’t his specialty whereas it is for Jeff. Much to think about.

Hippocampus said:

The DDs check a lot of boxes. Talked with them. Their NA is a chinese lady who sent me incomprehensible stability numbers. Apparently the chinese use a system all their own.
My only issue is the bride wants to do the loop. Think having fish would increase bridge clearance. Think removing the poles, even if cf, and replacing them would be a pain as well as unstepping the mast. Would prefer fins or sea keepers.
The Dutch boat link is greatly appreciated. Never did the canal. Always wanted to see the lake. Friends said that part was fun but the rest of it a chore. Having just done a shipping from St. Lucia to Newport would estimate an additional $25-30k to get a boat from the Nederland to here. However, similar boats look capable of doing Netherlands-Portugal-Azores-Antigua. Been to the Azores on a invite from the Portuguese government due to a research project on machado Joseph’s disease. It one of my favorite countries. Would be enthralled to go back there and show the wife around. So it’s not out of the range of possibilities.
Have a boat broker who’s a personal friend. Hear what you’re saying about Jeff Merrill. That house does have a good reputation so thanks for that suggestion as well but may use my friend. He’s a US dealer for Zeelander and some other powered craft so knowledgeable but admits trawlers aren’t his specialty whereas it is for Jeff. Much to think about.

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I read through much of the Moby Dick website/blog on Diesel Ducks built by Seahorse. Good reading if you're considering. Bit of an eye opener for me.

Peter

I agree that the DD is not the ideal craft for the loop. If the loop were my mission, I would prefer some additional speed, along with the the lower clearance and shallow draft.

It will be interesting to learn what you find that falls within your parameters - keep us posted, please.

Best Wishes

Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.
Can you offer advice?
What’s it like docking these things? We’re mom and pop. My knees are shot which is one of the motivating factors in getting out of sail. Wife fell off the ladder/sugar scoop when we put the boat on the hard in Grenada and fractured her ankle. She isn’t as quick since. To date very little marina time but every boating friend I have tells me the US isn’t the Caribbean and we be docking ten times more up here than we were island hopping.
I’m concerned by the absence of walkways. Do you just secure a stern line and go forward against it until you’re sorted out? In anything over 20 thrusters are just about useless on a sailboat. Same for trawlers? Currently our key line has been a midship spring. Is it the same for trawlers? Looking at cleat placement looks like most trawlers would pivot on that line.
Can anybody suggest good place to charter one in the northeast? Think I want to find a bouy away from traffic and play approaching bow first, stern first and along side. Short of that what’s good to read to learn about close quarter handling a single screw trawler?

Hippocampus said:

Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.
Can you offer advice?
What’s it like docking these things? We’re mom and pop. My knees are shot which is one of the motivating factors in getting out of sail. Wife fell off the ladder/sugar scoop when we put the boat on the hard in Grenada and fractured her ankle. She isn’t as quick since. To date very little marina time but every boating friend I have tells me the US isn’t the Caribbean and we be docking ten times more up here than we were island hopping.
I’m concerned by the absence of walkways. Do you just secure a stern line and go forward against it until you’re sorted out? In anything over 20 thrusters are just about useless on a sailboat. Same for trawlers? Currently our key line has been a midship spring. Is it the same for trawlers? Looking at cleat placement looks like most trawlers would pivot on that line.
Can anybody suggest good place to charter one in the northeast? Think I want to find a bouy away from traffic and play approaching bow first, stern first and along side. Short of that what’s good to read to learn about close quarter handling a single screw trawler?

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MY 1989 N46 used fresh water in the keel tanks as ballast.
The bow thruster was very underpowered until I put in a 12 hp (?) 2 prop BT.
That was a key issue to me. After it was dropped, all the windows needed to be reset and exterior teak replaced.
The first new owner did show it was a constructive loss. I think it was sold and now up for sale w/o mention of constructive loss. Hmmmm. (I put a non opening port in the shower door, looking into the ER. That to me was the give away that the boat was back on the market.
The N46 was a stout boat and with the hyd stabilizers could handle bigger seas than you or I wanted to experience.
I spent BIG bucks re configuring the fwd S/R. The original 20KW generator ‘ate’ up the space in the ER and made or all maintenance difficult. There was also an 8KW gen in the aft lazeret. (Sp)
If you stick with a 12KW gen, I am told LOTS more space in the ER.
The 47 was supposed to address the space problem in the ER too.
I did ask them why they stopped making the 46 and he honestly told me, sales dropped off. I would like to explore the 47 to see the differences.