Great Harbour new N44 “concept”

Looks like Ken Fickett is designing another boat by himself, on a cocktail napkin. [emoji849]

No mention of involving a naval architect.

https://mailchi.mp/a68fbd9e61dd/new-n44-concept-shenanigans-on-the-waterways?e=fb3fc71115

Order today and you might get it in 2025.
As usual, the devil is in the details...or lack of them.

After all the troubles they had getting the TT35 to market, you'd have to be insane to order a boat from them.

If you do order one. Don't plan on ever receiving delivery, or getting you money back.

What a great read! No not the new Fickett design. The story below it titled "Wanted on the Water" Thanks Dude.

Benthic2 said:

After all the troubles they had getting the TT35 to market, you'd have to be insane to order a boat from them.

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Wow - good to know. I've been researching blue-water trawlers and the Great Harbor GH47 piqued my interest. Then I found a post from Great Harbor stating that the GH series is no longer being made. That they were going to concentrate on just making the TT35. This strategy seemed a bit strange to me. After reading the above posts is sounds like the company is a bit sketchy.

Their claim that their boat will recover from a 110 degree roll is hard to believe especially with the flat bottom hull and no ballast.

sunchaser said:

What a great read! No not the new Fickett design. The story below it titled "Wanted on the Water" Thanks Dude.

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Holy sh&t! I missed that! What a crazy story!

There's a long list of great boats not designed by naval architects, including all those by the legendary Charly Morgan and equally esteemed Sam Devlin. Meanwhile, there have been some truly atrocious boats, which were designed by degreed naval architects. In fact, a hell of a lot of them. The fact of the matter is this: Once a boat is built and in the water, it can be judged by its own merits and matters of pedigree recede in importance.

Pedro Delrio said:

There's a long list of great boats not designed by naval architects, including all those by the legendary Charly Morgan and equally esteemed Sam Devlin. Meanwhile, there have been some truly atrocious boats, which were designed by degreed naval architects. In fact, a hell of a lot of them. The fact of the matter is this: Once a boat is built and in the water, it can be judged by its own merits and matters of pedigree recede in importance.

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None of which has any relevance to this thread. If one chooses to speculate on a boat from Fickett, they're likely in for disaster based on history.

As to all the atrocious boats designed by naval architects, most of the ones I'm familiar with are quite good. I know many naval architects for whom I have tremendous respect. As this is your only post ever on TF in 8 years of being a member, you come across very much as a Fickett troll, if not a Fickett yourself.

Yes, you guru, me troll. Wasn't even defending this brand specifically just pointing out a couple facts, which are borne out by decades of maritime litigation. You seem angry. Actually this forum has become somewhat superceded by the various relevant Facebook Groups, hence my absence. This thread came up in a search and I just thought I'd make a small point, but if this is the way you welcome back a member after being gone for a while, I think I'll stick to more collegial forums. See ya.

Pedro Delrio said:

Meanwhile, there have been some truly atrocious boats, which were designed by degreed naval architects. In fact, a hell of a lot of them.

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Examples? Please.

It seem as though people are confusing boat designers/naval architects, which are the same thing, and naval engineers. There is a difference between a naval architect and a naval or maritime engineer. One requires no degree and the other does. A naval architect is simply a boat designer with a fancy name who might have gone to school. A naval engineer is a person who has a degree from an engineering college that specializes in maritime subjects.

For instance Westlawn is a naval architecture school, not a college. They are accredited by the Royal Institute of Naval Architects in the UK and can grant a certificate of completion, but not a degree. Whereas the Maine Maritime Academy’s naval engineering program is affiliated with the New England Association of Schools and Colleges and can grant an undergraduate degree.

Graduates of both can design good boats and both have done so. But anyone can hang a shingle calling themselves a naval architect with no training or experience to speak of: it is not required to have completed a naval architect program to call one’s self a naval architect. Not so with a naval engineer.

Yes I'm sure it's an exception but here's one example:

https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/an-object-lesson-in-buying-fast-boats

sunchaser said:

What a great read! No not the new Fickett design. The story below it titled "Wanted on the Water" Thanks Dude.

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“The Monroe County Sheriff's Office and Key West Police Department conduct periodic sweeps for individuals with outstanding warrants. Additionally, the capias will be entered into a nation-wide alert system, and if he has an encounter with law enforcement that results in a warrant check, he is likely to be arrested.”

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I highly doubt any warrant for this charge will be extraditable nation-wide, which means he won't get arrested in any state other then FL. I doubt the warrant will even show up in NCIC. Those types of inter-state warrants are for higher value targets, like killers, rapists, kidnappers etc.



Sorry for the thread hijack.

Update on the original

https://www.greatharbourtrawlers.com/our-favorite-fugitive-arrives-in-mexico.html

Woodland Hills said:

Graduates of both can design good boats and both have done so. But anyone can hang a shingle calling themselves a naval architect with no training or experience to speak of: it is not required to have completed a naval architect program to call one’s self a naval architect. Not so with a naval engineer.

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Not so, at least not in most states in the US.



Most states consider "naval architecture" to be a field of engineering and one who "hangs his shingle" as a naval architect needs to be a licensed professional engineer. The usual path to obtaining a professional engineer's license requires graduation from an accredited college with an appropriate degree, 5 years of relevant experience and passing of 2 exams. Not everyone in an office needs to be so licensed, but at least one person must, and he is "in responsible charge" of the work that comes out of the office.



Use of the term "boat designer" or "yacht designer" is not regulated and there are no legally mandated competency or experience requirements.


Think of it in terms of a land based work. An architect must be licensed, a house designer does not.



The differentiation is less clear cut in our field, as there is a blurry line to what must be done be a naval architect and what can be done by a yacht designer. This line is usually drawn by regulatory agencies - USCG or ABS for example - or the requirements of a specific contract. A individual looking for a boat design can do business with whoever best meets his needs.



But the takeaway is this - if an individual or company is representing themselves to the public as "naval architects" then there is a licensed professional engineer on staff. A company representing themselves as "boat or yacht designers" most likely do not have a licensed engineer on staff. As was pointed out, this is not a reflection on the competency of the work.


Lou

LouCodega said:

But the takeaway is this - if an individual or company is representing themselves to the public as "naval architects" then there is a licensed professional engineer on staff. A company representing themselves as "boat or yacht designers" most likely do not have a licensed engineer on staff. As was pointed out, this is not a reflection on the competency of the work.


Lou

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That was the point that I was trying to make, when I was so rudely confronted.

LouCodega said:

Not so, at least not in most states in the US.



Most states consider "naval architecture" to be a field of engineering and one who "hangs his shingle" as a naval architect needs to be a licensed professional engineer. The usual path to obtaining a professional engineer's license requires graduation from an accredited college with an appropriate degree, 5 years of relevant experience and passing of 2 exams. Not everyone in an office needs to be so licensed, but at least one person must, and he is "in responsible charge" of the work that comes out of the office.



Use of the term "boat designer" or "yacht designer" is not regulated and there are no legally mandated competency or experience requirements.


Think of it in terms of a land based work. An architect must be licensed, a house designer does not.



The differentiation is less clear cut in our field, as there is a blurry line to what must be done be a naval architect and what can be done by a yacht designer. This line is usually drawn by regulatory agencies - USCG or ABS for example - or the requirements of a specific contract. A individual looking for a boat design can do business with whoever best meets his needs.



But the takeaway is this - if an individual or company is representing themselves to the public as "naval architects" then there is a licensed professional engineer on staff. A company representing themselves as "boat or yacht designers" most likely do not have a licensed engineer on staff. As was pointed out, this is not a reflection on the competency of the work.


Lou

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Thank you, I stand corrected.

Mr. P.D.:


In defense of Mr. B&B, I thought you might be a troll, too. GH has a recent history of trolling me on this forum after I had politely called them out in a thread about our present boat. Fortunately, for my original GH call-out thread, I took lots of pictures and was able to document our GH misadventure factually.


If you can find the time to read my lengthy thread here, you may discover why some of the long-time contributors on this forum are wary of GH.
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s63/splash-tt35-hull-1-a-43015.html


I was also warned by a beloved member of this forum that he received a PM (Private Message) that was rather nasty and threatening, from the owner of GH when this particular member contributed to the above thread.


And also, if you read the above thread, you will understand why even though we own a GH vessel, we will not acknowledge this in my signature over there to the left.



But wait, there's more! There are a series of posts, originated by our own GH historian Richard living aboard Island Bound, regarding GH's bizarre repackaging of a 2009 boat as a 2014 boat and then selling said used boat as a new 2014 boat.


See posts #8, 10, 11, and 12 on this thread:
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s63/great-harbour-trawlers-build-history-30246.html


In private conversation, Island Bound will tell you stories about his own ordeal with GH that will make your hair stand on end. You should send him a PM if you are interested in learning more. It's a crazy story, and the hoops Richard found to jump through were brilliant.


GH had extraordinary success with their trawlers designed by naval architect Lou Codega - these are boats much beloved by their owners - but then when GH's relationship with Lou ended, in my opinion GH went off the rails. I cannot say more than that here because I have been warned by our attorney to be very cautious in that regard.


Mr. P.D., if you can overcome your shock at being momentarily suspected of being a troll, you will find that Mr. B&B is a generous fellow, and a very experienced salty dog with extraordinary knowledge. Once you establish your bonafides here, you will find yourself warmly accepted.



Plus, we all get dinged occasionally here - it's the internet!


Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

I guess maybe I'm setting myself up as a target on here by saying this, but I had a very different experience with Ken Fickett than the horrible one that others on this forum have had, albeit mine was on a smaller scale.


I met Ken in 2003 or 2004 at the Miami boat show where I was set up as a vendor. I was looking for our first trawler, pretty much broke, and pretty much clueless when it came to anything other than outboard powered fishing boats. Even though it was clear that I couldn't come anywhere close to affording one of his boats he spent a lot of time with me and graciously gave me lots of good advice. He told me to call him with any questions I had and gave me his cell number. I called him six or seven times before we bought a boat. He always answered and always helped me.


We bought a boat in April of 2005. In July of '05 it was hit very hard by hurricane Dennis. I decided to do the refit myself, and again, Ken was a big help. He even got me some materials through his yard at his cost.



I found him to be a good guy. Almost everyone has a good side, I guess. I never bought a boat from him though, maybe that would have changed my opinion.


Pedro, I have found almost everyone on this forum to be great. That said, I have used the ignore feature a couple of times though. It is a useful tool that can add to your enjoyment of the forum when used correctly.

"Their claim that their boat will recover from a 110 degree roll is hard to believe especially with the flat bottom hull and no ballast."


Easy enough to prove , the Coasties do it to new designs.


Hope they film it!!!!

cardude01 said:

Looks like Ken Fickett is designing another boat by himself, on a cocktail napkin. [emoji849]

No mention of involving a naval architect.

https://mailchi.mp/a68fbd9e61dd/new-n44-concept-shenanigans-on-the-waterways?e=fb3fc71115

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Looks like they enlarged the cockpit by making the saloon smaller. I like a large saloon with a cockpit large enough for safe line handling.
It would be a quick development if they used an existing/proven hull design and start thinking saloon design..... That would make it a semi-custom boat.

OldDan1943 said:

Looks like they enlarged the cockpit by making the saloon smaller. I like a large saloon with a cockpit large enough for safe line handling.
It would be a quick development if they used an existing/proven hull design and start thinking saloon design..... That would make it a semi-custom boat.

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N44 is a N47 hull married to an N37 deck basically. Nothing was taken from the saloon, it leaves (mostly) everything the same forward of the aft pilothouse wall from an N37. The N37 of course has plenty of space for line handling but very little room on the aft deck for outdoor entertaining without a flybridge. We've wanted to expand that area for a long time but there's no way to do it on an N37 without compromising interior space.

dirtdoc1 said:

Wow - good to know. I've been researching blue-water trawlers and the Great Harbor GH47 piqued my interest. Then I found a post from Great Harbor stating that the GH series is no longer being made. That they were going to concentrate on just making the TT35. This strategy seemed a bit strange to me. After reading the above posts is sounds like the company is a bit sketchy.

Their claim that their boat will recover from a 110 degree roll is hard to believe especially with the flat bottom hull and no ballast.

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We only stopped building the GH37/GH47. N37, N47, and TT35 are still an option of course.


Edit: I suppose I should add some reasoning. The GH37/GH47 are huge complex boats and I'd guess that the GH37 is twice the interior volume of the N37. We decided it was wayyy too expensive, complicated, and difficult to build in the post recession market. We of course still have the molds but I'd say the odds of ever seeing a new GH37/GH47 are very low.

You might say that I really am a "troll" for Great Harbour since I help the company out with its marketing. I'd just like to point out a couple things:
1. American boatbuilders are a unique breed, typically irascible, opinionated and not willing to suffer fools. They tend to build good boats.
2. The alternative are the corporate builders, whose customers can be found elsewhere on this forum. These companies tend to be run by accountants. Their professional customer relations departments are excellent. Their boats maybe not so much.
3. Great Harbour is an example of a family owned American boatbuilding company.
4. Lou Codega is a friend and a fine naval architect, but that doesn't mean that Ken Fickett cannot design a boat without him. He designed and built hundreds before he even knew Lou. He also has designed aircraft, which I don't suppose one does casually.
5. Nordhavn is a fine boatbuilder and is also essentially a family owned business. They too have a certain number of customers who have fallen out and "unionized" against them.
6. Boats are not ordinary products. Buyers and owners invest a lot of emotion in their boats. Boat buying and having a boat built can be pretty stressful even when things are going well. It's easy to see how some deals go sour when emotions and ego are involved on both sides.
THE POINT BEING: Best to judge a builder by the utility of the product, not the personality of the principals. And Great Harbour (as Mirage Manufacturing) has been building boats continually since 1971. Think about that: 49 years!

Peter Swanson said:

THE POINT BEING: Best to judge a builder by the utility of the product, not the personality of the principals.

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Just my personal opinion, but I would NOT purchase a boat from a builder who delivered a boat to their customer, like what happened with TT35, hull #1.

Jim

Peter Swanson said:

You might say that I really am a "troll" for Great Harbour since I help the company out with its marketing.

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Welcome aboard. Even trolls are entitled to opinions here.

Peter Swanson said:

1. American boatbuilders are a unique breed, typically irascible, opinionated and not willing to suffer fools.

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Are you implying customers are fools?

Peter Swanson said:

4. Lou Codega is a friend and a fine naval architect, but that doesn't mean that Ken Fickett cannot design a boat without him. He designed and built hundreds before he even knew Lou.

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Certainly he can design boats but when his design has serious design flaws such a water entering the cockpit which was clearly visible at the Annapolis Boat show, does he fix them for the customer? Does he fix other flaws identified by well known marine surveyors?

Peter Swanson said:

5. Nordhavn is a fine boatbuilder and is also essentially a family owned business. They too have a certain number of customers who have fallen out and "unionized" against them.

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But aren't Nordhavn's designed by a naval architect?

Peter Swanson said:

6. Boats are not ordinary products. Buyers and owners invest a lot of emotion in their boats. Boat buying and having a boat built can be pretty stressful even when things are going well. It's easy to see how some deals go sour when emotions and ego are involved on both sides.

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Perhaps, things would go much better if the builder did not consider the customers and surveyors as fools when they are looking for delivery of an insurable quality boat.

Peter Swanson said:

You might say that I really am a "troll" for Great Harbour since I help the company out with its marketing. I'd just like to point out a couple things:
1. American boatbuilders are a unique breed, typically irascible, opinionated and not willing to suffer fools. They tend to build good boats.
2. The alternative are the corporate builders, whose customers can be found elsewhere on this forum. These companies tend to be run by accountants. Their professional customer relations departments are excellent. Their boats maybe not so much.
3. Great Harbour is an example of a family owned American boatbuilding company.
4. Lou Codega is a friend and a fine naval architect, but that doesn't mean that Ken Fickett cannot design a boat without him. He designed and built hundreds before he even knew Lou. He also has designed aircraft, which I don't suppose one does casually.
5. Nordhavn is a fine boatbuilder and is also essentially a family owned business. They too have a certain number of customers who have fallen out and "unionized" against them.
6. Boats are not ordinary products. Buyers and owners invest a lot of emotion in their boats. Boat buying and having a boat built can be pretty stressful even when things are going well. It's easy to see how some deals go sour when emotions and ego are involved on both sides.
THE POINT BEING: Best to judge a builder by the utility of the product, not the personality of the principals. And Great Harbour (as Mirage Manufacturing) has been building boats continually since 1971. Think about that: 49 years!

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Yes, you're a troll and a contractor for them and this post is exactly within the confines of your job, helping them out on marketing. Typical Fickett BS.

You clearly either know little or refuse to acknowledge little about the many quality American builders who are not at all like the one you represent.

Then to say judge by the utility of the product, not the personality of the principals. Do you ignore the ethics, the honesty, the character as shown repeatedly. Utility of product. How about TT 35's that were junk as initially delivered and it wasn't just #1. How do you feel about the fact that due to Mirage's lack of performance the buyer of #2 was unable to ever experience the loop.

People and companies like Mirage/Great Harbour hurt real people, over and over. They repeatedly reflect a lack of professionalism and integrity in their dealings. I can't and won't go back to 1971 as I was only 1 year old, but I will talk about the last ten years.

As to Fickett's ability to design boats, he clearly showed he couldn't do so decently with the TT35 nor deliver on any other promises he made related to it.

I will also condemn continuing to send cronies and others who have never participated in this or other forums to try to defend their honor, and the fact you would defend it is something you have to live with. I will continue to attack companies and individuals that do business this way. I did so with Northern Marine. I did so with Christensen. I did so with Trinity. I have done so with Marlow. I will do so with Great Harbour. There are great builders out there, the vast majority are good.

Boats are not ordinary products. Now you're showing you're a marketing person trying to twist and excuse. The product changes but business principals don't and boat builders are subject to the same as others. Yes, in all business emotions sour when lied to over and over, when promises are not delivered upon, when products arrive unusable. Just because it's a boat is not an excuse for any of those things.

You have failed miserably in your mission to come here and defend the indefensible and the fact you'd attempt to do so indicates you're a paid marketer who is willing to have his name tied to Mirage and Fickett. Personally, I'd be ashamed to be connected.

You see the desperation of Fickett now that he must send family members, employees, contractors here to try to defend him since his customers won't do so and plenty of people have seen the truth.

JLD said:

Just my personal opinion, but I would NOT purchase a boat from a builder who delivered a boat to their customer, like what happened with TT35, hull #1.

Jim

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I did not personally witness the events in connection with this boat and why certain decisions were made. It's too bad really. I have seen other cases like this, though, and sometimes it is not as one-sided as it may seem. Kinda like a messy divorce. Again, decisions around new boat buying can easily default to emotion, and as someone pointed out, buying Hull No. 1 might require a heightened sense of Zen.