Surveys Drive Values Down

jimisbell said:

My "new" 1978 Mainship is insured with BoatUS. They let me do my own survey and had me submit pictures of all areas. I did the needed repairs prior to taking the pictures. I made the repairs and am happy with both the price of the insurance, the agreed upon value, the price I paid for the boat and their survey policy. They may have been comfortable with me because I didnt try to "skinny" down the policy. I bought full coverage.

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Similar here... except I did hire a knowledgeable surveyor to do the ins survey, after I'd gotten the boat up to snuff.

Taint nothing wrong with full ins. coverage and a well written policy. If you take the dollars spent annually and amortized it over a length of time in regard to the what-if-that ever happened safety factor of having full coverage. Well, you get my drift!!

Nothing wrong with a surveyor using current AYBC as the standard for the survey. Its up to the buyer and seller to figure out who pays for what, but standards have improved function and safety over the past 30 years, and I want my surveyor to flag anything that is clearly in violation of current standards. That makes me a better informed buyer and give me the opportunity to have a safer, more reliable boat.

Hard to believe anyone but a seller would want a boat surveyed to standards that existing decades ago. That wouldn’t be a survey that I would request or pay for.

"Hard to believe anyone but a seller would want a boat surveyed to standards that existing decades ago. That wouldn’t be a survey that I would request or pay for."

Little has changed in terms of what is "safe" from 30 years ago.

Standards are different today because equipment is different.

Todays "standards" are suggestions to keep current builders from having legal hassles , and almost nothing to do with a required change to a well built 40 year old boat.

Sorry for the sidetrack. Is there a place to download the AYBC info, preferably in PDF?

guy with a boat said:

Nothing wrong with a surveyor using current AYBC as the standard for the survey. Its up to the buyer and seller to figure out who pays for what, but standards have improved function and safety over the past 30 years, and I want my surveyor to flag anything that is clearly in violation of current standards. That makes me a better informed buyer and give me the opportunity to have a safer, more reliable boat.

Hard to believe anyone but a seller would want a boat surveyed to standards that existing decades ago. That wouldn’t be a survey that I would request or pay for.

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You're not making a distinction between an insurance survey and a pre-purchase survey. As discussed previously, there are (or should be) criteria for an insurance survey. Those criteria should be "safety" as defined by current, official coast Guard requirements plus the material condition of the boat as it relates to the original build configuration. As an owner I don't believe you would want insurance companies willy nilly forcing 30 year old boats to meet build standards for a new boat. If there are no safety upgrades forced by a government regulation, the boat is safe. That assumes the material condition of the vessel is intact (per the as built configuration). That's insurance survey....an assessment of risk.

A pre-purchase survey is another story. If it looks at the design of a boat or its systems per current ABYC design (as opposed to condition) criteria, and is used as a tool to upgrade an original design, it amounts to a tool to shake down the seller.

The example of a worn cutless bearing is a condition issue. An example of revising the original wiring to meet current ABYC guidelines is not. In the aviation world, safety related deficiencies are addressed by official airworthiness directives (FAA). A fifty year old Cessna (with government mandated safety upgrades) is the same airplane that rolled out the manufacturers door. Beyond that the condition of that original design is what counts. In the pleasure boating world, ABYC and SAMS/NAMS would like to be the FAA or the Coast Guard and force upgrades. They attempt to leverage their product {"safety") through surveys. Buyers screw sellers using ABYC. New equipment and accessory manufacturers, who subscribe to ABYC for their products, reap the profits and plow money into ABYC to keep that part of the business circle alive. A few years ago there was a team of ABYC, SAMS/NAMS, and various product vendors set up at our marina. They were offering "free" services. WRONG! They were peddling their "safety" products. Never mind that virtually every boat in the marina was safe per the Coast Guard. ABYC guidelines are not standards (a legal term). Big difference.

ben2go said:

Sorry for the sidetrack. Is there a place to download the AYBC info, preferably in PDF?

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I believe ABYC sells their product. They are a business.

ben2go said:

Sorry for the sidetrack. Is there a place to download the AYBC info, preferably in PDF?

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To access the full ABYC standards you have to join ABYC which isn't cheap. Some excerpts are available- generally electrical but you will have to google to find them.


Canadian stanndards which are kind of a mini ABYC are available on line- https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/marinesafety/tp1332e.pdf



David

When I sell something, it is priced to take into account its condition.
A survey should point out the condition of the item being sold, so should only confirm the price you expect to get for it. If the survey finds expensive repairs you need, but didn't know about, you will need to reduce your price accordingly, but you should already know your boat well enough to anticipate what the surveyor will find. Then, only if you are desperate to sell, the survey will make no difference to the actual selling price.

koliver said:

When I sell something, it is priced to take into account its condition.
A survey should point out the condition of the item being sold, so should only confirm the price you expect to get for it. If the survey finds expensive repairs you need, but didn't know about, you will need to reduce your price accordingly, but you should already know your boat well enough to anticipate what the surveyor will find. Then, only if you are desperate to sell, the survey will make no difference to the actual selling price.

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The Real Estate industry has conditioned their buyers to believe they can beat the price down if they have an inspection and find something is not in "new condition". This is beginning to carry over into the boat and car industry. I ALWAYS state up front that "this is NOT a new boat/car/house/airplane and you are welcome to spend your money on an "Inspection","Survey", etc. But the price is as you find it. I dont give hoot what your guy says."

Rufus said:

I believe ABYC sells their product. They are a business.

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djmarchand said:

To access the full ABYC standards you have to join ABYC which isn't cheap. Some excerpts are available- generally electrical but you will have to google to find them.


Canadian stanndards which are kind of a mini ABYC are available on line- https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/marinesafety/tp1332e.pdf



David

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Thank you both. I thought there might be a special abbreviated version for homebuilders and DIY owners.

Perhaps a little tangential to the topic of a survey, I found a great 32 page article on line entitled "Marine Survey 101" How to do your own marine survey. It was written by Port Credit Marine Surveys and is a good checklist of what to look for before you decide that you want a full "official" survey. I have used the suggestions several time.

Exctyengr said:

Perhaps a little tangential to the topic of a survey, I found a great 32 page article on line entitled "Marine Survey 101" How to do your own marine survey. It was written by Port Credit Marine Surveys and is a good checklist of what to look for before you decide that you want a full "official" survey. I have used the suggestions several time.

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Thanks, Excty - I a gonna a look that one up!

It's been recommended here many times in the past. Looks like a thinly disguised ad for ABYC and SAMS. tap, tap, tap. tap... Canada is even more regulation crazy than the U.S. and incorporates some of this stuff by reference in their regs. Y'all be very careful what you read, endorse, and sign up for. Burdensome new "guidelines" could become burdensome new USCG regulations if you're not careful. The attitude of the writer that ABYC is gospel and that he has the power to summarily give things a thumbs down is what's wrong with the surveyor community. A few good pointers in the document, although it's way over the top with the hyperbole. The writer has an agenda.

mahal said:

These type of buyer are out there. As a seller, you don't waste your time with them. Brokers can easily spot them too. But what the hell does this have to do with this thread?

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EXACTLY what I was thinking when I saw this reply.....

I want to say this was an excellent thread!! I'm glad Guru came back and hit it so hard. On page one, of this thread, he made amazing comments and brought much needed information to light, not just for me, but for everyone. It had appeared nobody was going to dive into his rhetoric, thought the best part of this thread was about to get passed over and no one would pickup what he was putting down.

Personally, I do not own a boat as of yet. I am wet behind the ears, so to speak, as far as this industry goes. I stumbled upon it Via a really good story, and things have been working out fantastically for me. I am friends with the originator of this thread, been on his boat many times, and watched his project come along. He used to speak survey talk to me and it was well above my head. A lot of this thread still was, but it's starting to all sink in. I've been a very lucky guy, pre-boat, as I am around so much knowledge everyday. I work on a yard, doing purchasing and dishing out supplies to the painters/mechs. I am around knowledgeable sales reps that have been in the family industry for generations, mechs, painters, vendors, yard managers, sub-contractors, and surveyors. Sometimes the later has that greasy used car salesman feel and the money is what's behind it.



Oh, lastly I was turned on to books and articles by David Pascoe. Anyone familiar with his work? Anything good or bad to say?

jimisbell said:

I ALWAYS state up front that "this is NOT a new boat/car/house/airplane and you are welcome to spend your money on an "Inspection","Survey", etc. But the price is as you find it. "

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In my most recent sale (last month) I made sure that my broker understood my position on price (No negotiations) and he followed that position to a "T". The first offer was less than asking and the buyer's broker asked my broker if he thought that was a good offer. My broker answered that he did think it was a good offer but that his client (me) would not accept it! The offer was pulled back and a full price offer followed. The boat was sea trialed, surveyed and that was the end of it.
Conclusion: I had the boat in as "good a condition"as I could muster, had a knowledgeable broker who agreed with my asking price and a buyer's broker (captain) who sea trailed the boat with the buyers onboard & also agreed that the price was fair. No negotiations, two brokers who knew what they were doing & buyers that were more than qualified. ($$$$) The boat sold for more than market price & the surveyor's replacement value was twice what the asking price was. I was happy with the price and the buyers were elated with the boat. It was a good deal all around.

Oh, lastly I was turned on to books and articles by David Pascoe. Anyone familiar with his work? Anything good or bad to say?



Pascoe is a hero because he is honest in his evaluations.

FF said:

Oh, lastly I was turned on to books and articles by David Pascoe. Anyone familiar with his work? Anything good or bad to say?



Pascoe is a hero because he is honest in his evaluations.

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I have several of his books, I find him certainly knowledgeable but very opinionated. I use his work as one school of thought but not the "bible" of marine survey knowledge. For example, he thinks the Detroit Diesel 71 series is the pinnacle of marine propulsion. Certainly the DD is an excellent engine, long lived and so forth (love that sound!) but DD's are heavy, not very environmentally friendly and not very fuel efficient compared to some more modern engines. So, IMHO, study over his material, use his knowledge and thoughts but use your own judgement. (David passed away a few years ago so he won't be criticizing you)

David Pascoe was one of the best. Not perfect in all he said... but really darn good. It's worth reading what he wrote.

Derick, did you select a credentialed surveyor from SAMS or NAMS and did you visit their website to view and evaluate their sample reports before hiring?