New Rule Bilge Pumps

Rule just announced a new series of pumps to replace the small pump series they've been selling for about thirty years.

I think the biggest change is that they have incorporated a check valve to prevent back flow. Until now, check valves could cause airlocks. Rule has engineered a way to prevent that.

The discharge nozzle is removable allowing you to easily clean or replace the valve. You can also change the hose size or switch to a 90 degree discharge.

This is Charlie Tilders talking to West Marine about the new pumps.

Of course you should buy them from my old company, Hopkins Carter Marine, not West.

Interesting that they now install a check valve inside the pump. Air locking was never one of my objections to having a check valve in the pump discharge. Sticking and plugging up was. Sounds like it is easier to clear a stuck check valve with the new pump, but that might be too late ;-).

David

djmarchand said:

Interesting that they now install a check valve inside the pump. Air locking was never one of my objections to having a check valve in the pump discharge. Sticking and plugging up was. Sounds like it is easier to clear a stuck check valve with the new pump, but that might be too late ;-).

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My concern with a check valve, like yours, has always been the issue of potentially sticking. Most of the time this was a check valve that was added to the discharge hose. Maybe they have found a way to make the incorporated check valve safer?

This makes sense and keeps everyone happy in the litigious US. This way the pump manufacturer can still give a rated capacity as the flow coefficient (Cv) of the check valve is a known variable.

Doubt many boat builders or system designers use fluid flow design/modeling software for bilge pumping systems (or probably any pumping system on board.

They say they have solved the air locking problem by drilling two little holes in the pump body to let the air out. Could I not do the same with an old style pump? Anybody tried this?

Park

You usually get all my marine expense money (or your old company did). Hope all is going well for you and the guys and gals.

Rossland said:

They say they have solved the air locking problem by drilling two little holes in the pump body to let the air out. Could I not do the same with an old style pump? Anybody tried this?

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You probably could, but would only need to if you have a check valve or a dip in the hose greater than the hose diameter downstream of the pump.

What happens, is that the trapped water creates a high discharge head. Centrifugal pumps move fluid by radially impelling the mass of fluid through the volute increasing the velocity and static head. If there is no mass of liquid to move, it remains airbound and fails to generate enough head to open the check valve or clear the low spot in the discharge.

By drilling a vent hole it allows the volute to vent and if there is enough water in the inlet or adequate net positive suction head, the pump will "self prime" (kind of). The vent hole slightly​ decreases efficiency. In more complex systems, automated vents or even a vacuum priming system is placed on the volute.

Jabsco will not get another nickel of my money for the junk that they make

I agree! What a POS that is. After 30 years, that's the best they can do?

Thanks Bigfish.

Dave, They are using a valve similar to the discharge valves used in marine toilets. They won't get stuck closed. If they get something holding them open the only thing that will happen is you'll get a hose full of back flow to your bilge. They actually put these same valves in their Low Profile pumps that have been on the market for a couple of years now with no problems.

For those who don't want a check valve in the line, just take it out.

HopCar said:

Thanks Bigfish.

Dave, They are using a valve similar to the discharge valves used in marine toilets. They won't get stuck closed. If they get something holding them open the only thing that will happen is you'll get a hose full of back flow to your bilge. They actually put these same valves in their Low Profile pumps that have been on the market for a couple of years now with no problems.

For those who don't want a check valve in the line, just take it out.

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Thanks. I have a couple spots where a check valve incorporated in the pump would be really nice.

My big gripe with small bilge pumps is that the tiny shafts can corrode rapidly in the presence of salt water with a bit of stray current thrown in. They never provide a ground or bonding connection to protect against this, and although the impeller can be completely disconnected from the motor, it will still show proper function at the idiot light panel while it cannot pump a drop.

Where might I find them on the website? I could use one of them.

So I need to know why a check valve in the line is risky because it may freeze and not allow the pump to do its job, so why is this different (check valve in the pump and not in the line)?

I have no issue with a check valve if used as a back flow device. I do have an issue if it is used as an anti siphon device.

This was an interesting thread:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29884

Bigfish, it's a different type of check valve than you usually see installed in bilge pump discharge lines. I don't think there is anyway it could fail in the closed position. They are using a joker valve just like in marine toilets.

What Barnacles, I don't think they are shipping them yet. They just won an award at the big boat builders trade show ( Ibex) but it will be a few months before they hit store shelves.

Defender has 500, 800 and 1,100 gph models available to order right now.

David

The West Marine down the street from my marina has them in 500 GPM.

Parks

We know how well joker valves work. �� I'll let someone else try them. BTW my bilges are dry and the pumps never operate.

Thanks.

I'd have a real hard time ever buying another Rule pump. They went to sh%*t after ITT bought them with every pump I bought from them failing. ITT also bought Jabsco, and then spun the whole pump business out as Xylem.

Whale, for what its worth, has had such a pump for some time, and the work reliably.

twistedtree said:

I'd have a real hard time ever buying another Rule pump. They went to sh%*t after ITT bought them with every pump I bought from them failing. ITT also bought Jabsco, and then spun the whole pump business out as Xylem.

Whale, for what its worth, has had such a pump for some time, and the work reliably.

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Not just Rule and Jabsco, but every pump company ITT consolidated, Flyght and Goulds suffered too. There seemed to be very little R&D during their ownership.

I'm encouraged that there is a bit of change now that it is Xylem. Maybe the holding company mentality selling legacy parts is regressing, and they are in the business of being a pump company again.

Last pump I bought was a Whale.

Mostly a good idea.
But if it gets cold, the water held in the output hose is going to freeze first before any bilge water freezes. And then the pump will not work at all, even if it's impeller is in liquid water it cant pump out since the small amount of water in the hose will be frozen. So if the bilge get a leak, and it is cold enough to freeze the hose, the pump will let the boat sink.

sdowney717 said:

Mostly a good idea.
But if it gets cold, the water held in the output hose is going to freeze first before any bilge water freezes. And then the pump will not work at all, even if it's impeller is in liquid water it cant pump out since the small amount of water in the hose will be frozen. So if the bilge get a leak, and it is cold enough to freeze the hose, the pump will let the boat sink.

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Interesting point. Not something I'm going to worry about as I'm a Florida boy. Of course I don't mind a little water in the bilge. When I installed two of the Rule Low Profile pumps about a year ago, I took out the check valves.

If you read the bilge pump threads you'll find a lot of our comrades have an obsession with having dusty bilges. Others have a problem with pumps that cycle on and off because of back flow when the pump shuts off. I think Rule was trying to address hose issues.

It just occurred to me that the Rule 3500 that I had the boat builder install is now 29 years in service. Changed the switch a few times but the pump is still working fine.

HopCar said:

?... Others have a problem with pumps that cycle on and off because of back flow when the pump shuts off. I think Rule was trying to address hose issues...

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That's the problem we have with three pumps. I'll be looking at the new pumps. Thanks for posting.

HopCar said:

Interesting point. Not something I'm going to worry about as I'm a Florida boy. Of course I don't mind a little water in the bilge. When I installed two of the Rule Low Profile pumps about a year ago, I took out the check valves.

If you read the bilge pump threads you'll find a lot of our comrades have an obsession with having dusty bilges. Others have a problem with pumps that cycle on and off because of back flow when the pump shuts off. I think Rule was trying to address hose issues.

It just occurred to me that the Rule 3500 that I had the boat builder install is now 29 years in service. Changed the switch a few times but the pump is still working fine.

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I am in Seaford Va Chisman creek. It does get cold enough that for several years water in the bilge has frozen completely solid to ice and lasted like that for a couple weeks straight. The water that sits in my bilge come from the rain. Since all my pumps sit in a little water, of course regardless of a check valve, if a fitting froze and cracked, none of my pumps would work. I plan to raise up 2 other pumps and their switches so they do not ever sit in water that can freeze.

Still if your pumps were sitting in dry bilges and the outlet pipe holding water froze, any unexpected water ingressing event renders the pump useless.

Be a good idea to have an emergency bilge pump with no check valve ready to go sitting high and dry.

sdowney717 said:

Mostly a good idea.
But if it gets cold, the water held in the output hose is going to freeze first before any bilge water freezes. And then the pump will not work at all, even if it's impeller is in liquid water it cant pump out since the small amount of water in the hose will be frozen. So if the bilge get a leak, and it is cold enough to freeze the hose, the pump will let the boat sink.

Click to expand...

Good point. We don't have cold weather to speak of, but occasionally we will get a week of very cold weather. When that happens trees fall. When trees fall power lines get taken down. If I lose power at the dock in 20 degree weather, inside fresh water lines could start to freeze after a few days.

dhays said:

Good point. We don't have cold weather to speak of, but occasionally we will get a week of very cold weather. When that happens trees fall. When trees fall power lines get taken down. If I lose power at the dock in 20 degree weather, inside fresh water lines could start to freeze after a few days.

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Winter 2014, bilges frozen rock solid and the marina was iced over. This is the lower Chesapeake bay near LAFB. Took at least 2 weeks for bilges to thaw out.
Temps a few days got into low teens during the day, a few single digits at night.

Blocks of crusty hard ice wore the paint off at the waterline in a few places. So for 2 weeks, was as if I had no bilge pumps. Thank God, did not need them. These pics were after it started to thaw a little.

Northern Spy said:

Not just Rule and Jabsco, but every pump company ITT consolidated, Flyght and Goulds suffered too. There seemed to be very little R&D during their ownership.

I'm encouraged that there is a bit of change now that it is Xylem. Maybe the holding company mentality selling legacy parts is regressing, and they are in the business of being a pump company again.

Last pump I bought was a Whale.

Click to expand...

Crap, they own Goulds too? It's depressing when a company buys everyone in a market, then runs them into the ground. Reminds me of Xantrex.

twistedtree said:

Crap, they own Goulds too? It's depressing when a company buys everyone in a market, then runs them into the ground. Reminds me of Xantrex.

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Reminds me of what's happening everywhere:

http://www.safehaven.com/article/31...s-control-nearly-everything-you-read-or-watch

I know ITT from the days I used to buy electrical components and electronic items from the local electronic wholesaler. . These were the premier distributors in Vancouver area.

Don't remember the co. name anymore but IIT bought them and within a few years the whole company was gone.

The competitors loved it as as they picked up the slack.

They bought LOTS of different companies.