If the USCG should happen to board my boat while it's inside the perimeter of an airport, I'll keep this in mind.
I realize exceptions exist. I'm looking to keep it general here.
Coast Guard boarding: what ID?
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I realize exceptions exist. I'm looking to keep it general here.
Never questioned that in the least.
I'm just trying to determine if there's legal basis or prior precedent that says that an inquiry to see my ID necessitates that it be my driver's license. Or if they ask to see my drivers license, what happens if I instead offer my passport.
I'm of the opinion that if they're boarding my boat, some documentation is both necessary and expected. I'd like that sheet to reflect my name so that there's correlation to my claim that I was boarded, if I should ever need to do so. I'm not here to read every law journal and find out the bare minimum necessary to be legal, get wrapped up in reasonable articlable suspicion, etc. I merely don't wish it to be a license for something else...I'd rather it be as generic as possible. To me, a federal ID such as a passport seems most applicable to a federal agency doing the boarding. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong.
Portage_Bay
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Boarded twice. 1st time in the months after 9/11 boarded by a combined USCG and Navy team near the Bangor sub base. Full inpsection of the boat, boat's documents. Asked for documents of all aboard. 2nd time while on a short delivery Bellingham to Portland by a combined force of USCG, US Border partrol, CG border patrol and RCMP. Nope, I'm not making this up. Full inpsection of the boat and boats documents. Asked for personal docs of all aboard. As far as I know nothing we were doing instigated the boardings.
jleonard
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My first was a "standard" safety inspection (and training I would guess). I was 3 hours into my cruise from winter storage to summer slip and as I was approaching the CT River breakwater I saw the CG boat leaving a sailboat that was ahead of me. I knew I would be next.
It was painless, everything worked, and we had all our documentation in a binder.
Second time was when we were broken down and anchored in the Harlem River and I called them on the radio. I had just gotten the engine running again when they showed up. No inspection this time, they were just there to help if we needed it.
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It seems very strange to me that in the USA, one is required to have a photo ID to operate a boat, but a photo ID is not required to vote in National elections.
There is no requirement to have a picture ID to operate a motor vessel in ANY of the 50 states.
There is no legal requirement to have a motor vehicle license to operate a motor vessel either. Yes, there is a weird relationship where you will loose your motor vehicle license if found operating ANY motorized vehicle or vessel while intoxicated. Which puts you in a weird place where you could operate a motor vessel with no motor vehicle license, but NOT if you loose your motor vehicle license for DUI/DWI.
In almost every state, if not all, the legal age to operate a motor vessel is well under the legal age to operate a motor vehicle.
Let's not twist this discussion into you warped view on US Politics.
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sounds a bit intimidating to say the least. i find border agents to be very coarse as a rule, all their questions aimed at trying to get you to slip up. even for someone like me that follows all the laws to my best knowledge, it makes you feel like you've done something wrong.
it's interesting that the coast guard, or even the local harbor patrol can stop and board your vessel at any time without any cause. the harbor patrol may have a different rule set, but i'm not certain. in my area i see them stopping boats all the time, presumably just spot checking.
Portage_Bay
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The combined USCG and Navy boarding was very imtimdating. They came aboard heavily armed and with an attitude. Understandable to a certain degree given we were near the Bangor sub base and it was just months after 9/11. But it seemed over the top to me.
I almost got in trouble with the combined US and Canada boarding. After all were satisfied they closed the boarding and inspection with a request that if we saw anything unusual to report immediately. Well, my filters failed me and I said "I've seen something unusual allright!" That got their attention and they wanted to know immediately what I'd seen. When I said it was thier combined boarding force I could seel that my attempt at humor was not well recieved. I did follow up with a serious question about the reason for the combined force and was told it was a cross border effort. All boats had all the personnel aboard with jurisdiction over anything they encountered on either side of the border. Some time later I was talking with a friend who was working on the west side of Vancouver Island about the same time and was borded by a combined force there. I don't know if it was a training exercise or if they were looking for something but geographically it was apparently a large effort.
All in all I'm happy we've got people looking out for our security. I've always kept the vessel's documents in order, everything up to date. I'll show those papers, ID for everyone aboard and answer any reasonable questions. In another country I respect thier rights to board and inspect a foreign vessel.
I almost got in trouble with the combined US and Canada boarding. After all were satisfied they closed the boarding and inspection with a request that if we saw anything unusual to report immediately. Well, my filters failed me and I said "I've seen something unusual allright!" That got their attention and they wanted to know immediately what I'd seen. When I said it was thier combined boarding force I could seel that my attempt at humor was not well recieved. I did follow up with a serious question about the reason for the combined force and was told it was a cross border effort. All boats had all the personnel aboard with jurisdiction over anything they encountered on either side of the border. Some time later I was talking with a friend who was working on the west side of Vancouver Island about the same time and was borded by a combined force there. I don't know if it was a training exercise or if they were looking for something but geographically it was apparently a large effort.
All in all I'm happy we've got people looking out for our security. I've always kept the vessel's documents in order, everything up to date. I'll show those papers, ID for everyone aboard and answer any reasonable questions. In another country I respect thier rights to board and inspect a foreign vessel.
Shrew, I agree 100% with not interjecting politics into a boating thread like this.
I do believe, however, that some state require boating cards for certain segments of the population and that some of these states also require photo ID to be used with the boating card.
Generally states will offer ID cards similar to driver licenses for folks who do not drive. I don't know, however, if these same states will offer photo ID cards to minors?
Jim
Bkay
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I can speak for my state (Virginia), depending on who boards you and for what reason, they may ask for ID (and depending on who they are, they may say "driver's license" out of habit), but there is no requirement to have any specific ID on board. So whatever you show would be acceptable.
I frequently go out without any ID other than ship's papers (which includes my "I can drive a boat card" with my name on it). Out of curiosity I asked a neighbor (who is marine police) what happens if I am boarded with no ID and he said "it depends on what you did". I think his meaning was, in short, if they are issuing a citation, they will want to confirm my name and address. If they can't, I have not violated any additional laws or regulations by not carrying ID.
Having worked with law enforcement quite a bit, if I was a jerk about it, I imagine they'd find a way to make it more painful or waste more time. I spent 21 years defending the constitution so I want to take advantage of its protections, but I still try to not be a jerk.
jleonard
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I never felt intimidated by the GC boarding. They were friendly and courteous and respectful.
Also applies to the time we were NOT boarded, but a CG inflatable came at us a full bore and told us to STOP and turn the boat around until the submarine passed ahead of us. They were very nice and it only interrupted our trip by a few minutes.
Oh, and then there was the time shortly after 911 that were were "dogged" by a machine gun wielding patrol boat as we slowly cruised up the Thames river past the Groton, CT sub base. That might have been just a touch intimidating, but at least the gun remained in it's mount.
MrJim
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I guess I'm going off on a tangent here, but does the requirement to carry proof of a boater safety course only apply to driver's of boats registered in VA or to VA residents? I hate to think that anyone from out of state who is passing through the VA portion of the Chesapeake on their way to MD, for example, could get dinged for not having the proper boating education credentials.
Keysdisease
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Page 49 and 50 describe what one might expect from a typical Coast Guard boarding. No where does it mention identification.
If identification would be necessary, as you are being suspected of committing a crime, then I would assume any "Government issued identification" would suffice. Drivers license, passport, State ID, Military ID, etc.
I doubt any order to produce identification without a violation or suspicion of crime would be lawful. Absolutely not required for any passengers without suspicion of a crime. The United States of America is not a "show me your papers Country." The actual requirement is not to possess identification and produce upon demand, but to supply your name and date of birth.
There is no question that the 4th amendment does not apply to boats on the water and they can be boarded by any sworn Law Enforcement for any or even no reason. A safety inspection and reasonable questions regarding operation would be expected.
I have always been polite and forthcoming the times I have been boarded and have never had any issues. Being in the Marine Industry I always knew the importance of proper and legal operation and had no reason to not be polite and courteous.
https://www.uscgboating.org/images/420.PDF
If identification would be necessary, as you are being suspected of committing a crime, then I would assume any "Government issued identification" would suffice. Drivers license, passport, State ID, Military ID, etc.
I doubt any order to produce identification without a violation or suspicion of crime would be lawful. Absolutely not required for any passengers without suspicion of a crime. The United States of America is not a "show me your papers Country." The actual requirement is not to possess identification and produce upon demand, but to supply your name and date of birth.
There is no question that the 4th amendment does not apply to boats on the water and they can be boarded by any sworn Law Enforcement for any or even no reason. A safety inspection and reasonable questions regarding operation would be expected.
I have always been polite and forthcoming the times I have been boarded and have never had any issues. Being in the Marine Industry I always knew the importance of proper and legal operation and had no reason to not be polite and courteous.
https://www.uscgboating.org/images/420.PDF
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ssobol
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I believe that if asked you need to produce proof of a boating course completion card in VA if your state has the requirement that you need to take the course. VA accepts other states completion cards in lieu of a VA card. I was a VA resident and got stopped once and didn't have a card. I hadn't taken the course yet, but was supposed to have done it by then. Had to go to court and everything. Case was dismissed once I could show that I had completed the course.
AFAIK, you are generally required to produce a legitimate ID if asked by a LEO pretty much anywhere in the country. They don't have to have probable cause or anything, just "show me your ID".
kthoennes
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You know I might have a Libertarian streak in some moments myself, and I love New Hampshire's license plate, etc. - but of all the annoying and even angering frustrations in life, and all the suffocating government overreach in life (in my opinion), flashing my driver's license has never been a big deal to me. I don't get the issue (or showing it for voting for that matter). I just don't get it. We use them all the time for pretty trivial, routine transactions like renting a car.
I do remember last time on the Hudson we got too close to Indian Point nuke plant zone (but did not cross the boundary). You'd think we had fired a North Korean missile at the containment building. In discussions like this when we tell stories about fierce guns-drawn boarding, or when I have a bad encounter - and I've had them - I keep thinking, with all your guns and badges and hardware, this is really the best use of your time? Shaking down a recreational boat and acting like you're boarding a narco-runner cigarette boat off Miami, or like you're confronting a Chinese destroyer in the Sea of Japan? Grow up Gomer Pyle, if this is the best use of your time and hardware you've got a very small job.
I do remember last time on the Hudson we got too close to Indian Point nuke plant zone (but did not cross the boundary). You'd think we had fired a North Korean missile at the containment building. In discussions like this when we tell stories about fierce guns-drawn boarding, or when I have a bad encounter - and I've had them - I keep thinking, with all your guns and badges and hardware, this is really the best use of your time? Shaking down a recreational boat and acting like you're boarding a narco-runner cigarette boat off Miami, or like you're confronting a Chinese destroyer in the Sea of Japan? Grow up Gomer Pyle, if this is the best use of your time and hardware you've got a very small job.
Was the submarine visible? If so, were you at least 500 yards away? I'm all for protecting our military assets, but if the rules are to not approach within 100 yards and slow to minimum speed within 500 yards, and you're meeting those rules, I'm not a fan of having to do more because they want you to. (ya don't get to rewrite the rules just because)
psneeld
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That is the standard security requirements, vessels on scene can alter that if need be.
It also says and as directed by on scene authority. It is not just slow speed when within 500 yds.
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psneeld
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Can't say for other states, but passing through NJ..... you better have some sort of vessel operator card or you are asked to leave the waters (immediately).
Not only did I teach the NJ course but worked closely with NJ State Marine police.
psneeld
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Just remember....the Gomer Pyles of this country are DIRECTED by civilian authority.
Often the USCG and other real or Para military is forced to do things because something happens and the civilian leaders over or don't know how to react.
For gear.....ypu go do law enforcement/ counter terrorisisn without it. How often do you hear of the USCG abusing their power?
In the Delmarva area, each state has different boater education requirements, based on the age of the operator:
DE - all boaters born after 1/1/78
MD - all boaters born after 7/1/72
VA - all boaters regardless of age
So, personally, I don't need a boating card to operate a boat in MD or DE waters, but do need a card for VA waters.
Here is a Q&A for the NJ website that confirms that you need some type of certificate for New Jersey.
"Q3: I am visiting New Jersey, do I need a Boat Safety Certificate?
A3: To operate a vessel upon the waters of this State, an individual would need one of the following: a Boat Safety Certificate issued in their home State, a New Jersey Boat Safety Certificate, United States Coast Guard Captain’s License, or written proof of completion of a safety course approved by N.A.S.B.L.A. or one substantially similar to a New Jersey Course."
I would presume that most states have allocations, like NJ's above for boaters visiting their waters.
Jim
DE - all boaters born after 1/1/78
MD - all boaters born after 7/1/72
VA - all boaters regardless of age
So, personally, I don't need a boating card to operate a boat in MD or DE waters, but do need a card for VA waters.
Here is a Q&A for the NJ website that confirms that you need some type of certificate for New Jersey.
"Q3: I am visiting New Jersey, do I need a Boat Safety Certificate?
A3: To operate a vessel upon the waters of this State, an individual would need one of the following: a Boat Safety Certificate issued in their home State, a New Jersey Boat Safety Certificate, United States Coast Guard Captain’s License, or written proof of completion of a safety course approved by N.A.S.B.L.A. or one substantially similar to a New Jersey Course."
I would presume that most states have allocations, like NJ's above for boaters visiting their waters.
Jim
Keysdisease
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This is not true, the United States of America is not a "show me your papers" Country. If you are suspected of committing a crime, are in the act of committing a crime, or suspected of about to commit a crime, Sworn Law Enforcement my demand Identification. The minimum requirement is to supply your full name and date of birth. There is no requirement to have "official" identification on your person at all times in public.
The standard was set by the US Supreme Court in Terry v Ohio, and each State typically has a Statute based on this decision. In Florida its 901.151 Stop and Frisk
https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/0901.151
(2) Whenever any law enforcement officer of this state encounters any person under circumstances which reasonably indicate that such person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of this state or the criminal ordinances of any municipality or county, the officer may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense.
The standard was set by the US Supreme Court in Terry v Ohio, and each State typically has a Statute based on this decision. In Florida its 901.151 Stop and Frisk
https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/0901.151
(2) Whenever any law enforcement officer of this state encounters any person under circumstances which reasonably indicate that such person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of this state or the criminal ordinances of any municipality or county, the officer may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense.
LEO's can and will often ask for documents or information that a citizen does not legally have to supply. It makes their job easier and many folks don't know what the legal requirements are. I suspect that asking for a photo ID in many area is one of these times.
The most common experience most of us have had, is when getting pulled over while operating our car when the LEO asks "Do you know why I pulled you over?" If you answer "I was speeding." you have just made a confession and this goes into the report.
Jim
The most common experience most of us have had, is when getting pulled over while operating our car when the LEO asks "Do you know why I pulled you over?" If you answer "I was speeding." you have just made a confession and this goes into the report.
Jim
psneeld
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For any questions...this link may frame answers a little better..
.https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime...rding-power-of-the-united-states-coast-guard/
.https://mblb.com/admiralty-maritime...rding-power-of-the-united-states-coast-guard/
Bkay
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You are completely correct, and I agree with your comments above. As a side note, there are municipalities in Virginia where they grant law enforcement the power to require identification even without the suspicion of a crime having been (or about to be) committed. When you research this, the ACLU is quick to point out the legality of these ordinances has never been tested in court. I'm pretty sure they'd loose if that was the sole basis for a search that subsequently found something illegal.
I have trained, and trained with, law enforcement a fair bit in my military career. The comments above that LEO will frequently ask for something they have no power to compel (such as "may I come in an look around", or "can I see your identification") are 100% spot on.
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Interesting, Florida will issue non-drivers ID's to anyone 5 yrs or older. In Florida you can operate a vessel at 14 and you ARE required to have a photo ID along with your safe boater certificate.
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Well, that's a bit of an eye-opener for me. I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Fortunately, when I lived in MD and boated on the lower Potomac, we always turned left when he hit Point Lookout!
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So, I was curious and had to check. According to the VA DWR website, with respect to non-residents: "If you are operating a boat registered in another state, but temporarily using the waters of Virginia for a period of 90 days or less, you must meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of your state." (Which is basically what ssobol said, now that I re-read the post.)
kthoennes
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Yep, a number of states had that requirement, which is why we did a very extensive multi-state-approved boater safety course and got the cards some years ago, even though our home state doesn't require it. We ran our boat from Massachusetts to Albany (five states), and we charter all around the country and some charter companies require them, so those boater safety course cards cover a lot of bases. And the courses are just a good, sensible thing to do anyway. Good luck trying to keep track of which states do and don't, especially when some are staggered by age of the boater. We did find the courses were heavily weighted to personal watercraft operation which was kind of annoying but I suppose that's an indicator that those water mosquitoes generate a lot of irritation and controversy in lots of bodies of water.
Bkay
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I'm not sure who you were responding to, but you are 100% correct they are two different animals with different authorities. But the law gets sticky quick and some LEO don't even keep up with it.
The 4th amendment doesn't apply to USCG boardings within the scope of their role - and the courts have upheld that over the years. In VA, it USED to be that Marine Police were held to the same standards as dirt cops regarding searches (warrant or probable cause). However, in the wake of 9/11, laws were passed that allowed some law enforcement agencies to "assist" the USCG and the legal authorities they used were ones granted to Coast Guard. At that point, all the probable cause business for waterborne boarding's went out the window (I'm told that was only for some agencies, but it seems everywhere her in VA).
I understand that some states have made it clear that LEO can only board with PC or warrant and other states don't adhere to that. What makes those other states not in violation of the 4th amendment (absent any specific authority granted by USCG) would be up to the courts to determine. But it's been too many years since I've done this professionally and the laws change/evolve over time. So my thots may well be outdated and foggy.
My thots have always been, cooperate 100%, don't ever give consent, if there is a problem simply cooperate and it's the job of the courts to sort things out.
My job was training operations and tactics under the auspices of Counter Narcotics (to local, state, and Federal authorities), so I never really had to deal with these legal aspects. I just found them interesting and paid attention. In fact, the last training mission I was on was with Oregon State Police, Portland City Police, and USCG in a joint training mission. Among those 3 groups there was a lot of discussion on different legal authority and practices.
catalinajack
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A bit of a difference. No ID for the TSA guy? No fly. Simple as that.
