Gaining operating experience, for insurance purposes

Shrew said:

Comprehensive protects your asset from yourself and other people (or outside influences)

Liability protects other people's assets from YOU.

So the instruction/captain hrs is typically required for both types of insurance coverage.

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That wasn’t why I asked. I get all the training I can get, required or not.

This is nothing I've had to deal with so far anyway, and lots of good info expressed in this thread. But just wondering how an insurance company knows what kind of experience you have had. Is some sort of proof required?

backinblue said:

This is nothing I've had to deal with so far anyway, and lots of good info expressed in this thread. But just wondering how an insurance company knows what kind of experience you have had. Is some sort of proof required?

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They ask you.

Oh, you could lie?

Then you are paying them for coverage you never have. Lie as part of your application and they do just a small amount of research. However, have a major claim quickly and they'll dig deep and when they prove you lied as part of your application, they'll declare your policy null and void.

I went from a bay hen 21 sailboat to my Camano 31. I didn't have to have training for 1mil liability and 100k replacement value. I did a Captain Ron and told them my experience helming a 425' submarine and was a boat coxswain on the oil spill team in Pearl Harbor.

BandB said:

They ask you.

Oh, you could lie?

Then you are paying them for coverage you never have. Lie as part of your application and they do just a small amount of research. However, have a major claim quickly and they'll dig deep and when they prove you lied as part of your application, they'll declare your policy null and void.

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I'm not sure they could take your money and issue you a policy (contract) and then later declare that the policy is void because they insured someone they shouldn't have. Isn't the onus on them to determine your qualifications? What if you experience is not formal training, but informal that is not documented or can be verified? Maybe you often take the helm of a friend's or relative's boat. Maybe you did a bareboat charter in another country and the company no longer exists. (that actually applies to me). Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting lying, just not familiar with the process.

I don't think so....usually it is clearly spelled out about misrepresentation.

I can easily see it as "fraud" thus nullifying the contract...then again, I am not a lawyer...


https://www.mitchell-attorneys.com/...he United States, common,by the person in the
".in the United States, common law generally identifies nine elements needed to establish fraud: (1) a representation of fact; (2) its falsity; (3) its materiality; (4) the representer’s knowledge of its falsity or ignorance of its truth; (5) the representer’s intent that it should be acted upon by the person in the manner reasonably contemplated; (6) the injured party’s ignorance of its falsity; (7) the injured party’s reliance on its truth; (8) the injured party’s right to rely thereon; and (9) the injured party’s consequent and proximate injury"

Have friends who carry liability only and in effect self insure the boat as mentioned above is only protects from tort against you. Liability of $1m is commonly required throughout the Caribbean in order to be able to dock in just about all marinas. Even as a transient. You raise the “Q”, get your papers together. First hit C&I. Then go to the marina off with your face page in hand. No liability insurance you’re out of there.
Here in the Northeast when arranging a seasonal slip it’s the same except some want to see other aspects of your face page as well.

Thanks PS. I'm not a lawyer either, and I would agree if you outright lie about experience or previous boat ownership, but some of it is not cut and dry an open to some interpretation as in my previous post.

garychurch said:

Went from no a 27’ to a 64’. Insurance required 100 hours with a Captain they approved and a subsequent sign off letter from that Captain that I was now qualified to handle the boat after the 100 hours of instruction and supervision.



No issues Captain was $300 per day plus expenses.

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So, about $3,000 assuming 8 hours per day on the water. Not a big deal in my estimation considering evrrything. Plus, you do get the benefit of professional instruction.

Sounds like money well-spent for the experience gained. I wonder if the Capt has any reservations signing off on something like that for fear of future liability. I'm guessing it's a well-drafted document that releases him from any liability if the new owner subsequently screws up.

backinblue said:

Thanks PS. I'm not a lawyer either, and I would agree if you outright lie about experience or previous boat ownership, but some of it is not cut and dry an open to some interpretation as in my previous post.

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What isn't cut and dry or provable, broadly gets you less of a discount or limits you even less than the usual 8 hr boating safety class most states require. Even a charter or taking the wheel of a friend's boat doesn't count for much if the insurance company is in their right mind.

Any kind of training or certification that you put down better be provable because my bet it will either come up in a law enforcement or insurance investigation.

backinblue said:

I'm not sure they could take your money and issue you a policy (contract) and then later declare that the policy is void because they insured someone they shouldn't have. Isn't the onus on them to determine your qualifications? What if you experience is not formal training, but informal that is not documented or can be verified? Maybe you often take the helm of a friend's or relative's boat. Maybe you did a bareboat charter in another country and the company no longer exists. (that actually applies to me). Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting lying, just not familiar with the process.

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Absolutely they can as it's fraud. If one lies as part of the application. I knew a guy who lived in Brooklyn and was so proud of how much he saved on auto insurance by insuring his car at his brother's address in SC. That was fine until.....his car was stolen while parked outside his home in Brooklyn. Insurance asked what his car was doing there. Discovered it was always there as he lived there. $30,000 loss, no insurance. Oh, and insurer did advise him not to try to pursue or take them to court, as in that case they'd be forced to pursue a fraud case against him.

I'm glad I never had to go thru 100 hours of training. I probably would not have gotten into boating.
There have been seasons when I was working where I didn't put 100 hours on the boat.
At 8 hours/day that's 2 1/2 weeks of full time running. Or if only on weekends just about the entire season or maybe more if the weather didn't cooperate.

So that would be let's say one year of ownership where you couldn't insure the boat?
Or do you get a conditional policy to cover you while you're training?

I've talked to a lot of boaters and never heard of this mandatory training issue.

Good points JL. I know my boat is only 35 ft and relatively newish, but my insurance (Progressive) didn't ask about training or care to see the survey when I bought it. Maybe I'm just not in the league where size and $$ value have stricter requirements.

jleonard said:

I'm glad I never had to go thru 100 hours of training. I probably would not have gotten into boating.
There have been seasons when I was working where I didn't put 100 hours on the boat.
At 8 hours/day that's 2 1/2 weeks of full time running. Or if only on weekends just about the entire season or maybe more if the weather didn't cooperate.

So that would be let's say one year of ownership where you couldn't insure the boat?
Or do you get a conditional policy to cover you while you're training?

I've talked to a lot of boaters and never heard of this mandatory training issue.

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The boat is insured while the licensed captain doing the training is on board. 100 hours is the upper end of what I've seen. Most boaters found in this situation end up running their first season with the captain. The hours are also not "full time running." They may be a typical cruise.

Training requirements are quite common for those taking large steps up in size or those just starting and starting at anything over minimal size. I've seen them range from 10 hours to 100 hours. I've also seen just the need for a professional captain to accompany, review skill level, and sign off.

I'm very thankful insurers are looking at training since there is no agency requiring it. Having a licensed captain aboard for your first 100 hours of use doesn't seem to be as big a problem as some might think. That could easily be a three week trip to the Bahamas which turns out to be an excellent training session as it includes all aspects of boat operation.

I also know many less experienced boaters in South Florida who will do ICW day boating on their own, but choose to engage a licensed captain for cruising. Others who, much to their credit, get a licensed captain for their dinner cruises to Miami in which they know they and others aboard will be drinking.

Insurers are just trying to make sure the owner has some qualification for operating a boat other than being able to pay for it.

One thing to come up through boating and spend decades experiencing and hopefully learning.... many not so much and some think jumping on a 40 something and going cruising is somehow easier than their job.

Of course with all the new tech aboard boats including self docking....it was inevitable.

The boat is insured while the licensed captain doing the training is on board. 100 hours is the upper end of what I've seen.

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So, if it gets hit or struck by lightening, or worse while no one is aboard then it's not insured?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

jleonard said:

So, if it gets hit or struck by lightening, or worse while no one is aboard then it's not insured?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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No. Just needed while under operation.

jleonard said:

I'm glad I never had to go thru 100 hours of training. I probably would not have gotten into boating.

There have been seasons when I was working where I didn't put 100 hours on the boat.

At 8 hours/day that's 2 1/2 weeks of full time running. Or if only on weekends just about the entire season or maybe more if the weather didn't cooperate.



So that would be let's say one year of ownership where you couldn't insure the boat?

Or do you get a conditional policy to cover you while you're training?



I've talked to a lot of boaters and never heard of this mandatory training issue.

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It was mandatory for me, two days. No training, no insurance.

catalinajack said:

It was mandatory for me, two days. No training, no insurance.

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2 days doesn't sound bad. 100 hours seems excessive.

jleonard said:

So, if it gets hit or struck by lightening, or worse while no one is aboard then it's not insured?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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No, it's fully insured, just not insured under way without a captain. You're not an insured operator. Has all the normal insurance, just normally you'd be approved as an operator, and, in this case, you are not.

backinblue said:

2 days doesn't sound bad. 100 hours seems excessive.

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It all varies based on insurer and based on insured. If someone had never operated anything other than a 24' runabout on a lake, 100 hours seems like very little to me. I remember when we came from the lake and first owned a coastal boat, we didn't feel comfortable until we got a lot of hours from a captain.

BandB said:

No, it's fully insured, just not insured under way without a captain. You're not an insured operator. Has all the normal insurance, just normally you'd be approved as an operator, and, in this case, you are not.

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So that raises another question in my mind. If the owner is trained and then insured, is he the only person allowed to operate the boat? If someone else takes the helm for a short time and something happens, is the insurance no longer valid?

backinblue said:

2 days doesn't sound bad. 100 hours seems excessive.

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I agree. But I did take the Power Squadron course when I first started boating. I think that was a total of 8 hours, all classroom of course. That got me a small insurance discount.
And I read the Chapman's book.

backinblue said:

So that raises another question in my mind. If the owner is trained and then insured, is he the only person allowed to operate the boat? If someone else takes the helm for a short time and something happens, is the insurance no longer valid?

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It all depends on the policy and insurer. If owner is aboard, no problem. However, if someone else taking the boat, then best idea is to have an additional operator named in that case.

backinblue said:

Sounds like money well-spent for the experience gained. I wonder if the Capt has any reservations signing off on something like that for fear of future liability. I'm guessing it's a well-drafted document that releases him from any liability if the new owner subsequently screws up.

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"Future Liability".
That wording has a lot of different meanings. With that I wouldn't sign off on anyone. But I have been told that I am grumpy at times also.

BandB said:

It all depends on the policy and insurer. If owner is aboard, no problem. However, if someone else taking the boat, then best idea is to have an additional operator named in that case.

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Ok thanks, that makes sense.

backinblue said:

Ok thanks, that makes sense.

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Now, while boating is more rigid and more restrictive in tone, much applies in cars as well. Many people find out the hard way when they let someone without a valid license borrow their car. Also young drives can be a similar problem.

The difference is to drive a car there are known regulations and requirements. So if you have a license, you can drive and get insurance. Doesn't mean you're a safe driver, just that you met the requirements and passed the tests. Not great IMO but better than nothing which is mostly what we have in boating.

backinblue said:

The difference is to drive a car there are known regulations and requirements. So if you have a license, you can drive and get insurance. Doesn't mean you're a safe driver, just that you met the requirements and passed the tests. Not great IMO but better than nothing which is mostly what we have in boating.

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Plenty of people drive without licenses or with suspended licenses. Have you ever loaned someone your car? Did you check their license first? You might have felt confident, but you'd be amazed sometimes.