H46 Our Next Journey

[twistedtree]

Originally Posted by N4061

In response to the topic of range and our planned 1,000 mile trip south to Cabo without worrying about refueling in Turtle Bay we need at least 1,200 mile range to include a 20% safety factor before factoring in use of the generator. We are still working with Scott to understand the boats performance (GPH, NMPG, Speed) based upon our final engine selection and other options but with 800 gallons we should be fine.

Perfect!

[Ross Macdonald]

My wife and I have made the trip from San Diego, Calif. to Cabo, La Paz and Puerto Vallarta 7 times since 2004. We have a 58 ft. Westbay Sonship and do the trip both down and return by ourselves. We only carry 1000 gal. of fuel and always stop in Turtle Bay for topping up fuel. We travel at 9 kts. The fuel in delivered in a panga with 1000 liters in a polyethelene tank. It is not hand pumped. They run a small generator and pump the fuel and a reasonable speed. We are presently in San Jose del Cabo and fueled on the way down at TB. You can also get fuel in Magdalena Bay back in the Man O War anchorage from a panga. We break the trip into 3 legs. SD-TB about 330 NM. TB-Bahia Santa Maria 240 NM. Then 190 NM down to San Jose. We use weather routing out of New York. We have very low constraints and have no deadlines. So we wait in these stops for really good weather to move. We have waited in TB for 5 or 6 days on some trips. The fuel is outrageously expensive in TB because Enrique now has no competition so be prepared to pay way more than you will in actual ports farther south. Obviously we do not have a displacement hulled trawler and our slow speed is not as economical as a displacement hull. We have done the same routine coming back north preferring to wait until the middle of June to head North. Again, never have deadlines. Everybody we talk to in various stops that got their butts kicked had to be somewhere by a certain date. Weather prediction is light years better than it used to be but there are always exceptions but our routing service has been about 95% spot on over all of these trips. We are headed from San Jose to La Paz in another couple of weeks weather permitting (of course). Hope this current info. helps....

[N4061]

Ross, thank you for your great and informative post. I cannot agree more on the advantages of "no time constraints" which is another aspect of boating we don't have. This being said Im the last person to push a weather forecast and risk getting caught in a mess so we know doing this trip while still working has its risks of working out. Add in the relatively small boat size and things can stack up against us quickly. Even when we had our small Nordhavn's which were Category A certified we found no enjoyment heading into short period six foot seas for 12 hours. Just not worth it. Knowing the boat was designed and proven to handle these relatively messy seas provided us mental comfort we were fine helped but again just not worth getting caught in that stuff.

Regarding fuel stops, we definitely do not want to have to worry about them (I have enough to worry about) and know we will be OK with this boat. We are still working on the engine selection (likely a Cummins) then we can dial in the estimated range. All fun stuff and part of the journey. If you are in SD let me know and possibly we can get together over a margarita and discuss your trips. Thanks

[N4061]

Yesterday I met Mary and Sailor Blue after work at the boat for the afternoon and dinner. While we were relaxing in the salon we started to talk about and compare our 38E to the H46 drawings.

A few take aways included:
1. With the H38E already offering one of the largest beam to length ratio salon available the H46 will be large.
2. We are on the fence with the U shape H46 galley based on how much we appreciate the openness of our H38E design.
3. We will likely have an up / down television to help protect it when cruising in rough conditions. We keep the drop down TV on the H38 always stowed away while underway and its worked out fine.
4. Stove will be gas so propane capacity will be something to figure out.
5. A large size refrigerator / freezer is a must have but one that is very efficient.
6. As with the H38 window size and type is something we will discuss with Scott. Possibly storm covers or at least provisioning for them is on the list.
7. Location of AC and heater units as well as their vents while normally predetermined by the factory is something I want to have input on. Especially if we start tweaking the interior.

While there are many other things to consider, these are the few we discussed so far. As we left for the evening Mary turned and looked back at the boat and said "you have this boat just as you wanted and its perfect for us, do you really want to start all over?". Ouch��

[twistedtree]

John, can you summarize what has changed in your cruising/use plans, and what you now find to be deficient in the 38 WRT those plans? It would be helpful to understand the problem you are trying to solve with the new build, and why that isn't solved in the 38.


Thanks

[BandB]

Originally Posted by N4061

While there are many other things to consider, these are the few we discussed so far. As we left for the evening Mary turned and looked back at the boat and said "you have this boat just as you wanted and its perfect for us, do you really want to start all over?". Ouch��

Answer: Duh. You know me. Always. And guess what, after it.......

[N4061]

[QUOTE=twistedtree;739185]John, can you summarize what has changed in your cruising/use plans, and what you now find to be deficient in the 38 WRT those plans? It would be helpful to understand the problem you are trying to solve with the new build, and why that isn't solved in the 38.

In summary we selected the H38E for it hull form (best dang hull in the world offering the soft comfort of an FD with just a little more speed - my opinion), quality and best value of any boat I could find. Our plans were to cruise southern California then ship the boat to Florida, retire and do the ICW the Bahamas.

Since I'm now not retiring for another 4-5 years and cruising is limited in southern California we thought its time to head south. Can the H38 handle this and does it have the range, sure but for this trip (as you know) you want the biggest, heaviest boat you can afford and can handle long passages in open ocean. Also need stabilizers and back up systems since we be alone must of the time. If things work out this will be a 2-3 year journey south then maybe build another 38E for retirement and east coast (love this boat).

John

[Jim Cooper]

Hello John,


Congratulations on selecting your 2nd Helmsman, I'm sure she will be a stunning and top performing vessel.


I'm curious as to what systems you are considering for back-up systems?

[hollywood8118]

Originally Posted by N4061

In response to the topic of range and our planned 1,000 mile trip south to Cabo without worrying about refueling in Turtle Bay we need at least 1,200 mile range to include a 20% safety factor before factoring in use of the generator. We are still working with Scott to understand the boats performance (GPH, NMPG, Speed) based upon our final engine selection and other options but with 800 gallons we should be fine.

You do know SD to Cabo is under 800 miles? Less from Ensenada..

(695) which is where I top off on fuel typically before heading South.


HOLLYWOOD

[N4061]

Originally Posted by Jim Cooper

Hello John,


Congratulations on selecting your 2nd Helmsman, I'm sure she will be a stunning and top performing vessel.


I'm curious as to what systems you are considering for back-up systems?

Heat question and likely the most painstaking one I'm dealing with. As everyone knows I prefer simplicity when it come to boats and our H38E is as close as we could get while meeting our demands on a boat. Since our new plan includes cruising Mexico for a couple of years we will need backup power. We are trying to decide on twins (ouch) or a wing engine. Pros and cons with both. More to follow....

[N4061]

A little more about back up power and our options. While twin engines offer the best option for our planned use the new H46 is designed for a single with a nice keel and rudder centerline. This limits our selection to either a PTO using the generator or a wing engine (been there before). I don't have any experience with a PTO but in talking with a KK representative who sells this configuration often its not cheap and requires some work. Since there is never a good time to loose your main engine this option is not on the top of my list. Then we have the wing engine option which offers a great balance and based on real life experiences is a real option.

Any thoughts?

[IRENE]

I think you need N4061 back!

[MRRiley]

Being a interested observer, these articles strike me as a reasonable direction for "alternative" power. Might not need a second generator or engine at all.

https://mvdirona.com/2014/08/a-more-...em-for-dirona/


https://setsail.com/?s=solar&x=0&y=0

[twistedtree]

If it's not practical to do twins, I would probably just stick with a single engine. You aren't crossing an ocean, so won't die if you break down. That's where you really need a backup.


The problem with a wing is that it will never get used unless it's also used to power hydraulics, and I'm guessing your boat won't have hydraulics other than stabilizers. I had to make a conscious effort to run ours, and still only accumulated 20 hrs over 4 years. It all just seemed such a waste, and with so little run time I never developed confidence that the engine would carry us for any long emergency distance. Plus, the more an engine sits, the more likely it is to have issues when you go to use it.


And the problem with an hydraulic or electric drive using the generator as the power source is a fundamental miss-match in the power requires of propulsion vs electric generation. Our wing was 80 hp and drove teh boat 5 kts which I think is a good target for a get-home. If you get down to 3 kts, I think it starts to become questionable whether you will make progress under adverse conditions. If you translate that 80 propulsion requirement into genset sizing, you are looking at a 60kw generator. That will give you power for the emergency propulsion you will likely never use, and will massively under load the generator all the time you do use it generating electricity.


Personally I would put the energy and money into a superior fuel system, spares, tools, training, and a good sat phone or two.

[N4061]

TT, your post was perfect and I agree with everything you wrote. My issue is that I'm less mechanically skilled then you are and don't feel comfortable fixing anything significant myself so its twins or the wing engine. As you pointed out our Yanmar wouldn't push our N40's beyond 4-5 knots on a good day. We did use it once in a crowded harbor and it saved our butts so I guess you can argue its good enough. Thanks

[IRENE]

Nordhavn “floated” the idea of twin Beta engines, instead of a main with wing, on a couple of recent postings to the Nordhavn Dreamers group. The idea has merit and is worthy of consideration for your next build...if you must have 2 engines. I subscribe to what TT posted in that it is unnecessary for coastal use.

1. You have to use the wing to keep it functional and have confidence in it’s use. We use it, but it is an extra thing to do.

2. The wing propeller is not optimal due to its folding type and off-center location. This affects steering and maneuvering.

3. The wing uses a different propeller, shaft seal, different filters, additional zincs, spare parts, etc. and is completely different than the main and generator as far as maintenance is concerned (e.g. heat exchanger cleaning).

Twin Betas, or other small mains, alleviate the wing’s downfalls. Two rudders. It gets used frequently. Handling on one engine will be better than a wing only, with a full-size “normal” propeller close to a rudder. Same maintenance and spare parts.

There may be a price advantage as well. Would be interesting to explore on the H46, if H can accommodate.

[N4061]

I'm going to try and focus on one general topic related to this future build before moving onto the next topic so that we can collect input from everyone and make the best decisions possibly. Hopefully some TF followers will enjoy providing their input on this new build and seeing the end product.

Back to the engine room. Someone asked me if this boat would have an ER door and my answer was "I wouldn't build a boat without one". If you followed our original thread on H38E you will understand why. So this aspect of the boat doesn't require any more discussion. We are waiting for the final ER height dimensions from Scott and shoulder width between the single main engine and fuel tanks. We insist on good access to the engine on our boats and have been very pleased with the H38E. That boat offers one of best ER access we have seen on any boat under 40'. More to follow soon....

[twistedtree]

Originally Posted by N4061

TT, your post was perfect and I agree with everything you wrote. My issue is that I'm less mechanically skilled then you are and don't feel comfortable fixing anything significant myself so its twins or the wing engine. As you pointed out our Yanmar wouldn't push our N40's beyond 4-5 knots on a good day. We did use it once in a crowded harbor and it saved our butts so I guess you can argue its good enough. Thanks

I that case, I'd lean heavily towards twins. I think a wing is as much a liability as an asset unless it's run regularly for some useful purpose.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by twistedtree

I that case, I'd lean heavily towards twins. I think a wing is as much a liability as an asset unless it's run regularly for some useful purpose.

While not a customer for this type boat, I have over time formed an opinion on two equals versus one full size and one small. We first faced this on generators on a boat. The question was to have an equal backup or have a smaller to get by in emergencies if the main one was out of service. The savings of going smaller were so minimal and the compromise on it's use so significant. We would have had it but in the time we owned that boat never would have used it. Instead with full time generator usage, we had two with moderate hours instead of one with very high hours.

That brings me to twins vs. single with wing. The cost savings isn't enough to swing the decision and the inadequacy of the wing if pressed into service would be an issue. Oh yes, if the main went our when you were on the ICW and no wind, current, not even a ripple. But then that's a time you could easily get a tow. If you're going to lose an engine or drive it just seems to me it's going to happen at the worst possible time and then 4-5 knots turns to 1-2 knots or 0 knots and just a fight to maintain direction. Even 300 nm, a normal two day trip suddenly becomes 4 or 6 days. If you want to save fuel you can only use one engine or use both gently. Twins gives you flexibility but the comfort that either could still power you at a decent speed.

Wing is a bit like a spare tire. Do your spares all have the right amount of air in them? I'll be honest, I have never looked at any of our spare tires. I'm not even sure where a couple of them are located. However, on land, I can take all the time I need to, I can call for help, I can look in the manual. Not the same as floating around in the middle of the ocean 300 nm from land.

[N4061]

Thanks to everyone for your inputs on propulsion options and recommendations. I'm still working this with Scott who offered up a unique option which we are evaluating. This is one of the benefits working with Scott, he is not afraid to explore options and works well with buyers on solutions to their needs. Remember when we built H38E we collaborated on the new deck mild which was fun (for me).

Another item in the ER we wanted to confirm would be similar to our H38E was the removable floor panels. These are in my opinion the only option for a real engine room. They provide the perfect balance of brightness (they are white), cleanliness and accessibility. I don't think I could back to a molded floor in the ER. While some will say I'm a fanatic with the ER I will admit if it's not shiny white it's not for me. I likely spend as much time keeping the ER spotless as most people spend using their boats. Yes, it's a sickness. 😂