Insurance question

[Seevee]

To answer some of your questions.

I don't know what anchor the Hatteras had deployed. They left the marina before dawn and I did not get his contact and insurance information until the CG located him a state away on Sunday afternoon.

There were several other boats anchored in the same portion of the bayou that did not move. From the best I can judge, the Hatteras came in from about 1/2 mile away.

Ahhh, the classic hit and run....

 

[HTurner]

If this happened in Texas, it should have been reported to Texas Parks and Wildlife. See: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PW/htm/PW.31.htm#31.105


The accident reports are confidential and are inadmissible in court as evidence.

 

[sbman]

Ahhh, the classic hit and run....

Yes there are laws about that.

 

[Bryant]

Insurance

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

The first thing I would do is contact a law firm specializing in admiralty law and get their opinion on your situation. I have a feeling that unless you can prove that the owner of the other boat was flagrantly negligent you may have difficulty in forcing State Farm to pay. You might threaten them with a law suit if they won’t at least cover your deductible but the attorneys can advise you on that. In any case, you should let your insurance know what happened as this is going to take a long time to sort out.

 

[ancora]

There is an old Mexican curse, "May your life be filled with lawyers."

 

[TexasBryan]

Some additional information:

The Coast Guard was contacted and said that recreational vs. recreational was under the jurisdiction of Texas Parks and Wildlife. I found a Facebook post on Saturday evening that showed that the Hat owner recently qualified for a 100-ton license and passed that information on to the CG. That prompted the CG to locate the Hat on Sunday afternoon, about 280 miles away.

Texas Parks and Wildlife was contacted and came to the marina within the hour on a busy holiday weekend. They returned later in the day via boat to take additional photos & video of the damage. I am very impressed with the effort that TXPWD has put into this.

When the Hat was no-where to be found when the sun came-up Saturday morning, I contacted my insurance. As others have suggested, they will cover the repairs to my boat and pursue State Farm if they choose. If they are successful I may be able to recover some or all of my deductible. That process may take years.

I have learned that two factors seem to be in my favor for subrogation of the claim. The first is something in maritime law called “the Oregon Rule”. This goes back to case heard by the US Supreme Court in 1895 that basically states that when a moving boat hits a stationary object, the moving boat is liable. The other factor is that additional damage to my boat occurred after the Hat had its engines running and the owner was at the helm and it's not possible to determine what damage happened before/after the Hat was under power.

Additional hindsight: We (Pegasus and Fifty/Fifty II) made a lot of effort to attempt to muscle the boats apart. That was probably a bad/dangerous idea as any wrong move could have caused serious bodily injury and the damage was no-less for our efforts. When adrenaline kicks-in, you don't do your best thinking.

Finally, bear in mind that I’m sharing this to gain your insight and pass-along what I learn from the experience.

 

[HTurner]

TexasBryan, that is excellent news. Texas Parks and Wildlife do an excellent job. With the USCG involved they will contact Texas Parks and Wildlife for the report. It is always a good idea that when there is a boating accident in Texas waters to contact TPWD.

 

[BandB]

Additional hindsight: We (Pegasus and Fifty/Fifty II) made a lot of effort to attempt to muscle the boats apart. That was probably a bad/dangerous idea as any wrong move could have caused serious bodily injury and the damage was no-less for our efforts. When adrenaline kicks-in, you don't do your best thinking.

May be the most important thing shared today if others take heed. Muscling should never be a part of boating. Not docking, not leaving a dock, not avoiding being hit. Arms and legs kept in and protected always. Tons of force and one chooses to insert a flimsy little human arm and yet we see it all the time. Best case is broken bones and surgeries and a lifetime of pain. Worst case is getting tangled and overboard and drowning.

While it's on a much different basis and level, I don't know if any of you ever have watched Lone Star Law or North Woods Law or Louisiana Law but last night as we were doing something else Lone Star and then Louisiana were on. Most of the game wardens on those shows really are good people and have earned my respect. However, it's especially poignant to see episodes where a rescue turns into a recovery after apparently someone fell overboard without their life jacket and also see them stopping boats on the water with inadequate PFD's, with children not wearing PFD's and with drunken operators. When they talk about not wanting to see a child die or have to do a rescue, you realize these are the same people who do them and over their careers they've had to face families who lost others to drownings. They're enforcing safety laws to try to avoid the other.

I hope people listen to you about muscling. It's not ever worth it. I'd rather repair fiberglass any day or even watch my boat sink. Yet the tendency we all have is to fight to protect it.

 

[TexasBryan]

Since we are coming up on the one year anniversary, here's the update:

My insurance made no effort to subrogate the claim against his insurance company, but the other party agreed to pay my deductible and reimbursed me for that expense via an installment plan.

Now the bad news. When the repair was complete, my insurance company claimed "betterment" and refused to pay for 25% of the cost of the repair.

Lesson Learned:

Review your insurance policy, it probably has a "betterment" clause. Note that the insurance company has no obligation to explain how they calculate or justify this adjustment.

 

[BandB]

Since we are coming up on the one year anniversary, here's the update:

My insurance made no effort to subrogate the claim against his insurance company, but the other party agreed to pay my deductible and reimbursed me for that expense via an installment plan.

Now the bad news. When the repair was complete, my insurance company claimed "betterment" and refused to pay for 25% of the cost of the repair.

Lesson Learned:

Review your insurance policy, it probably has a "betterment" clause. Note that the insurance company has no obligation to explain how they calculate or justify this adjustment.

You never stated that I can recall who your insurer was. I'm betting against a true marine insurer, but I may be wrong. My guess was Progressive.

As to their obligation to justify their adjustment, I haven't read your policy, but ultimately only a court can truly obligate them to do so.

 

[TexasBryan]

"You never stated that I can recall who your insurer was"

American Modern

 

[BandB]

"You never stated that I can recall who your insurer was"

American Modern

I've never known anyone with a boat insured through them. How did you end up selecting them and the policy in question?

 

[slowgoesit]

Since we are coming up on the one year anniversary, here's the update:

My insurance made no effort to subrogate the claim against his insurance company, but the other party agreed to pay my deductible and reimbursed me for that expense via an installment plan.

Now the bad news. When the repair was complete, my insurance company claimed "betterment" and refused to pay for 25% of the cost of the repair.

Lesson Learned:

Review your insurance policy, it probably has a "betterment" clause. Note that the insurance company has no obligation to explain how they calculate or justify this adjustment.

You didn't mention what state you live in. Many states don't allow "betterment", in fact several states, including Kentucky and Texas have sued insurance companies for charging "betterment". Ask me how I know! Yup, my Auto insurance company tried that, and when I pointed out the case number of the lawsuit against, which they had lost, they dropped the whole thing and sent me a new check!


It looks like you are in Clear Lake Shores, TX. Check out the two following articles:

https://www.tdi.texas.gov/bulletins/2000/b-0014-0.html
https://www.autobodynews.com/index....lders-get-refunds-for-betterment-charges.html

 

[BandB]

You didn't mention what state you live in. Many states don't allow "betterment", in fact several states, including Kentucky and Texas have sued insurance companies for charging "betterment". Ask me how I know! Yup, my Auto insurance company tried that, and when I pointed out the case number of the lawsuit against, which they had lost, they dropped the whole thing and sent me a new check!


It looks like you are in Clear Lake Shores, TX. Check out the two following articles:

https://www.tdi.texas.gov/bulletins/2000/b-0014-0.html
https://www.autobodynews.com/index....lders-get-refunds-for-betterment-charges.html

While those are auto claims and the ruling doesn't apply to boats, I'm sure a suit would stand an excellent chance based on the auto decisions.

 

[lwarden]

Can someone PM me the contact for Pau Hana ( Peter). I’ve messaged him several times and no response.

Thanks.

 

[BandB]

Can someone PM me the contact for Pau Hana ( Peter). I’ve messaged him several times and no response.

Thanks.

If you want a business relationship with him, I'd suggest https://www.novamarinsurance.com/contact-us. His information is shown there.

 

[Comodave]

Can someone PM me the contact for Pau Hana ( Peter). I’ve messaged him several times and no response.

Thanks.

He is usually very good at responding. Try the website suggested above.

 

[TexasBryan]

Slowgoesit, thank you for that ray of hope!

I called the Texas Department of Insurance and they were very helpful. Unfortunately, after spending most of an hour with me researching the question, they determined that the Texas no-betterment only applies only to automobiles.

 

[BandB]

Slowgoesit, thank you for that ray of hope!

I called the Texas Department of Insurance and they were very helpful. Unfortunately, after spending most of an hour with me researching the question, they determined that the Texas no-betterment only applies only to automobiles.

That's what I was saying earlier, but....in a legal case or filing it could well establish precedent to be used.

 

[Murval]

I've never known anyone with a boat insured through them. How did you end up selecting them and the policy in question?

Novamar has sent a quote for insurance thru American Standard to a friend.

 

[BandB]

Novamar has sent a quote for insurance thru American Standard to a friend.

But he's talking American Modern

 

[Murval]

But he's talking American Modern

woops..it was American Modern

 

[BandB]

woops..it was American Modern

Well I still would like to hear how the OP ended up with them and what the agent or broker has had to say.

Also, did the policy have a relevant clause or did they just pursue it as a practice.

 

[slowgoesit]

Slowgoesit, thank you for that ray of hope!

I called the Texas Department of Insurance and they were very helpful. Unfortunately, after spending most of an hour with me researching the question, they determined that the Texas no-betterment only applies only to automobiles.

I'm so sorry, that really sucks. I was hoping it would help you out.
It still may be worthwhile filing a complaint with the Texas Office of the Attorney General. Just contacting your insurance company and telling that you are not satisfied with their use of "betterment", and ask them to reply to you stating their position, as well as sending a copy to the Office of the Attorney General, File # "xxx". Once you file a complaint, you will receive a file number, and even if the Office of the Insurance Commissioner told you on the phone it doesn't apply, it will make the insurance company reply to the State . . . They HATE to do that, just might pay off to avoid having to justify themselves. Worth a shot anyway. . . .

 

[TexasBryan]

Well I still would like to hear how the OP ended up with them and what the agent or broker has had to say.

Also, did the policy have a relevant clause or did they just pursue it as a practice.

Got nowhere with the insurance company. What bothered me the most was that they would not provide me with any details of how they calculated/justified "betterment" amount, beyond "opinion of the surveyor". The insurance company did pay in-full for all the additional yard fees that accumulated while we were in dispute over payment.

The insurance broker agreed that the insurance provider was allowed to claim betterment.

I was able to negotiate some discount with the repair company (different company from the yard), mostly because he needed to get the boat out of the way so he could start on the next job rather than have me continue to fight with my insurance.

My insurance did contain the applicable betterment clause. I suggest that all of you read your insurance policy and/or ask your agent about "betterment" and what that could mean for you.

If anyone finds finds an insurance provider that does not have a "betterment" provision, please let me know. This experience made me consider replacing the boat with an RV or some other expensive hobby.

 

[BandB]

Got nowhere with the insurance company. What bothered me the most was that they would not provide me with any details of how they calculated/justified "betterment" amount, beyond "opinion of the surveyor". The insurance company did pay in-full for all the additional yard fees that accumulated while we were in dispute over payment.

The insurance broker agreed that the insurance provider was allowed to claim betterment.

I was able to negotiate some discount with the repair company (different company from the yard), mostly because he needed to get the boat out of the way so he could start on the next job rather than have me continue to fight with my insurance.

My insurance did contain the applicable betterment clause. I suggest that all of you read your insurance policy and/or ask your agent about "betterment" and what that could mean for you.

If anyone finds finds an insurance provider that does not have a "betterment" provision, please let me know. This experience made me consider replacing the boat with an RV or some other expensive hobby.

So the broker acknowledge knowing about the clause when he sold it to you and not informing you of it. I wish I could read your clause. I've never had a policy or read a policy with such a clause. It is their way around depreciated parts. The argument was that you should get old for old, shouldn't get new parts to replace old. Now, people have learned that and started avoiding depreciation of parts clauses. I want new OEM. My old parts are one thing, but someone else's that may not have had the same care are different. Also, just finding used is a pain. So, these insurers have started saying we replace old with new, we've bettered your situation.

Now I would argue that. You replace my old rail with a new one, my boat works the same, the rail works the same. You say my value increased? I'll argue my value decreased with the history of damage. The new parts don't come close to negating that. Betterment policies allow wild uncorroborated speculative calculations.

Your warning is great. I hope others are checking their policies and will speak up and let us know if they find betterment clauses. I understand insurers don't feel they should better your situation but leaving them with an open door is unwise. These are the same insurers who don't want to pay for loss of value due to accident, yet we all know value is lost due to accidents. In fact, now the major auto pricing services can quantify that.

I've looked at a lot of policies and you have pointed out something I wasn't familiar with but which is apparently not that unusual. I'm wondering if it's more in Texas than elsewhere, although now illegal on cars in Texas.

My Director of Risk Management says she's seen it in a variety of areas from automobile to construction. Interesting in construction where they have to replace extra to match and Florida is a matching state.

I also found out it's common on Progressive policies. Any with Progressive here who can look for us?

I understand the theory, but think it's lousy theory, very disputable, and then in practice becomes arbitrary and unsupportable. I don't know how I've avoided seeing it before. I can only guess those smart enough not to offer me such a policy.

I really hope others will check and add to this thread on what they find on their policies.

Too late to help you, but here's a link for fighting betterment charges. https://insuranceclaimhero.com/insurance-estimate-betterment/

 

[slowgoesit]

Excellent article on Betterment! Thanks B

 

[Murval]

Excellent article on Betterment! Thanks B

Yes, thank you !

 

[Comodave]

Very interesting article. I didn’t realize that betterment was a thing.

 

[BandB]

Very interesting article. I didn’t realize that betterment was a thing.

Occasionally, we all learn something new here. I had never encountered it but it's very widespread. I've warned against depreciation of parts, but now have something new to warn about. Once again, I do warn to read, and be sure you understand, every word of your insurance policies.