Bad Deal and I need to get out of it!

[MonkeySea]

So my ex and I have had our trawler for sale for a couple months and have now had an offer. I was traveling full time and not privy to all the back door deals/info until I came back to the area.

My ex had been keeping me “informed” via text, but there was a TON he left out and i was not included in ANY of the emails/text/faxes from the brokers. Even now that I am back at the marina(RV) and the broker has been told, in writing, on 2 occasions by both of us I must be included on all correspondence I am still being left out of the loop.

Come to find out there is a reason for that, it is a VERY bad deal, $20000 less than asking bad! So it now falls on me to get us out of the deal.

Here is the list of possible “outs” I have found so far.

The boats name is listed incorrectly on the P&S agreement.(not a big deal except for legal purposes, they were provided a copy of the documentation early on)

****THE BIG ONE **** My name is not listed on P&S agreement.(it’s a documented boat, I am listed as “controlling owner”).

**** THE OTHER BIG ONE **** My ex signed my name to P&S agreement and told me after the fact. The is no power of attorney in place.

I finally got the listing broker to hand over a copy of the P&S agreement yesterday by making a scene, my request for a copy had been ignored previous to that. The deal was initiated by the buyer on 12/01/23.

Agreed on commission was 5% as my ex works for the broker, said broker has now reneged on that and states he doesn’t remember that conversation though when reminded of the exact date and place he has said he will take 7.5% instead of 10%. There was no signed brokers agreement it was just a verbal agreement.

After survey it was determined batteries were needed, 5 of them. A hand written fax from the sellers broker suggested sharing the cost of batteries. We are now being told we have to pay for them.

Emails stating there would be no further concessions beyond a set bottom dollar amount sent twice, and to move on to the next person interested in the boat, one has been completely ignored, the second was sent last night but we expect the same results.

There have been several other issues but these are the big ones.

So do you think I can get out of the deal without recourse on me?

 

[mvweebles]

First, from your description, it's unclear whether you want to tank the deal or to negotiate better terms. Whether you and your ex both want to exit or just you want to exit. You need to be very clear.

I'll speak from perspective of protecting your interests, not your ex, not the brokers. My suggestion would be to send a registered letter to all parties including brokers, brokerages,.your ex and the buyer (if known) to inform you are a legal owner and have not agreed to the terms of the P&S agreement. In real estate, it's possible to file such a letter with the county that records the deed which will effectively prevent a future sale when the title company discovers the letter. Perhaps this is possible with USCG documentation - at the very least, you could prevent transfer of title. However, this will likely place your ex in a bind - if my understanding of your story is accurate, he's part of the selling brokerage so your interests are not necessarily aligned (I know, fairly obvious given he's your ex). Forging your signature is a serious crime (especially if it happens on USCG documentation) and may affect his career depending what state he's in (Florida and California have state licensure for boat brokers, though not sure if simple salespersons are covered too)

Perhaps the easiest thing for you to do is to say to your ex and the brokers "I don't care what you guys do to close the deal as long as I get $xxxx when the dust settles." You don't care if selling price is $20k lower or $20 higher, or if they need to install 20 new batteries. You don't care whether the brokers get a commission or not as long as you get $xxxx. There is nothing that says you get 50% of the proceeds - I have seen very large deals ger hammered out in the favor of an obstinate partner.

Rather than meddle in the negotiations, state your outcome and let them figure it out.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[MonkeySea]

First, from your description, it's unclear whether you want to tank the deal or to negotiate better terms. You need to be very clear.

My suggestion would be to send a registered letter to all parties including brokers, brokerages,.your ex and the buyer (if known) to inform you are a legal owner and have not agreed to the terms of the P&S agreement. In real estate, it's possible to file such a letter with the county that records the deed which will effectively prevent a future sale when the title company discovers the letter. Perhaps this is possible with USCG documentation - at the very least, you could prevent transfer of title. However, this will likely place your ex in a bind - if my understanding of your story is accurate, he's part of the selling brokerage so your interests are not necessarily aligned (I know, fairly obvious given he's your ex).

Perhaps the easiest thing for you to do is to say to your ex and the brokers "I don't care what you guys do to close the deal as long as I get $xxxx when the dust settles." You don't care if selling price is $50k low or if they need to install 20 new batteries. Let them figure it out.

Good luck.

Peter

Actually my ex and I get along reasonably well, but he is a “yes” man and he works at the marina, as a lift operator, the listing broker owns. But now that I have pointed out the various financial (and legal) issues with the deal he is starting to get the picture and we are both in agreement, tank the deal or renegotiate, it doesn’t make a difference, as long as the end amount we receive is equal to or greater than we have now agreed on.

That isn’t to say I can’t, or won’t, push back if pushed first though.

Good advice though, I like the idea of setting a set amount I need to complete the deal and letting them figure out the detail as to how to make the deal work. Thank you!

 

[mmullins]

20% below asking is bad? Unless you're sitting on some rare gem, you're not going to get asking price. The big question is, is that 20% worth sitting on the boat another 3, 6, 8 months? Meanwhile, you're paying dockage, insurance maintenance. Economic predictors forecast a buyers market becoming more so. Is it worth losing the deal? I would clear up the legalities, sell the boat and if you lose some money, look at it as part of your boating education tuition.

 

[psneeld]

By the time you fight the whole deal and it falls through....especially if you need to get into a legal possibly involving a lawyer...you may wind up eating more loss.

I would see how much of the original share you can quickly negotiate, otherwise you may find out like most sellers do, that selling most all boats winds up to be a shock.

Plus I learned in life, usually even sacrificing tens of thousands of dollars to get on with your life if worth every penny. It also makes it easier to not dwell on things you weren't happy about.

 

[mvweebles]

..... It also makes it easier to not dwell on thongs you weren't happy about.

Oh boy. I can't wait to see the simian picture RT Firefly comes up with for this....

Peter

 

[CharlieO.]

Well, if you really wanted out of the deal you could refuse to pay for any part of the battery replacement and maybe the buyer will walk due to "unsatisfactory/failed survey"?

We bought our boat for about 60% of the original asking price.

You've had it listed for a couple of months and this is your first offer? Are you willing to wait more months on the hope of getting a better offer and still have the holding costs until then?

Good Luck!!

How is the vessel being marketed?

 

[PPandE]

Get a lawyer. Now

 

[mvweebles]

Get a lawyer. Now

Given her updated information that she and her ex are relatively friendly and his work, while associated with the overall marina business, is outside the brokerage business, I'd take a 'Honey' ca 'Vinegar' approach at first.

Goal is to sell the boat and resumable disentangle marital assets. Both parties need to be reasonable. On reflection, sounds like the OP is just getting familiar with the deal - perhaps she'll get more comfortable with it once she understands it better. If either her ex is the brokerage(s) were acting in bad faith, well, a lawyer may be appropriate but my sense is she's figuring out the deal right now.

BTW - depending on the age of the boat, type of boat, and represented condition, asking for full replacement of batteries may be unreasonable, especially if the batteries are serviceable but end of life. You're selling a used boat. Not usually reasonable to expect new replacement items. 50/50 split between buyer and seller is a typical resolution.

Petrr

 

[MonkeySea]

20% below asking is bad? Unless you're sitting on some rare gem, you're not going to get asking price. The big question is, is that 20% worth sitting on the boat another 3, 6, 8 months? Meanwhile, you're paying dockage, insurance maintenance. Economic predictors forecast a buyers market becoming more so. Is it worth losing the deal? I would clear up the legalities, sell the boat and if you lose some money, look at it as part of your boating education tuition.

I don’t know a bout a rare gem, but yes it is a rare, extremely sought after boat with only 1 other on the market and that boat is landlocked in Canada! The listing has that boat in similar condition and with comparable add-ons, $25k ABOVE our original asking price, so ours was priced to sell to begin with and now it is being given away at $45k below comps!

Dockage is EXTREMELY minimal, with other toys included on the same policy, insurance doesn’t change much and maintenance, the ex works at the marina and carries out all maintenance as needed, however atm the boat is winterized, so maintenance is minimal. If sea trial is required the buyer is required to pay expenses to rewinterize, which again is minimal because the ex takes care of that the labor portion of.

However, you made an assumption that my education was lacking. Given that this is my 5th(and final) flip, the previous 4 having been profitable, my boating education is far from lacking and my tuition has been paid in full. My mistake was one of trust, I won’t make again and I will protect my interests this time around as they almost literally handed me the means to do it on a silver platter.

 

[sunchaser]

What is the model and year of the vessel so we have a bit more to comment on? Then comes the condition questions which are critical.

$20,000 below market is very different than $20,000 below asking. What % below asking is $20,000 BTW?

 

[Bacchus]

You mentioned a number of reasons the deal could be tanked but agree with others that you need to decide if that's what you really want.
If buyer gets the message that there is an ownership / clear title issue and owners are squabbling they may just move on and not bother trying to negotiate knowing it could blow up at any point.
Some of the outs may in fact cost you... if for nothing else the cost of legal advice vs the "free" advice provided here.
First step I would take if in your shoes would be to call a face to face mtg with you, ex, (owners) and broker & owner of brokerage.
Establish your requirements...
Written & signed brokerage agreement identifying dual ownership, including correspondence reqmts, other contingencies, method of settling all funds transfers, etc signed by all
Request any/ all offers be rewritten and approved / denied / countered by both legal owners.
I would expect the above may send a signal to the prospective buyer but broker should be able to send the message that reworking paperwork actually provides better assurance of deal progressing vs a later issue due to sloppy paperwork on their part... broker may need to est some crow to help calm the waters.

 

[MonkeySea]

Well, if you really wanted out of the deal you could refuse to pay for any part of the battery replacement and maybe the buyer will walk due to "unsatisfactory/failed survey"?

We bought our boat for about 60% of the original asking price.

You've had it listed for a couple of months and this is your first offer? Are you willing to wait more months on the hope of getting a better offer and still have the holding costs until then?

Good Luck!!

How is the vessel being marketed?

This is not our first offer, though it is our first written offer. The other 2 were tire kickers trying to figure out if we were desperate to sell, which we are not. We are willing to wait.

 

[MonkeySea]

What is the model and year of the vessel so we have a bit more to comment on? Then comes the condition questions which are critical.

$20,000 below market is very different than $20,000 below asking. What % below asking is $20,000 BTW?

Once the issues have been resolved I’ll be more than happy to add that info and the brokers info. Until then I don’t need to cause further issues by the potential buyer possibly seeing this thread.

Asking price was 20% and change below market and now we are $20k below asking.

 

[MonkeySea]

Given her updated information that she and her ex are relatively friendly and his work, while associated with the overall marina business, is outside the brokerage business, I'd take a 'Honey' ca 'Vinegar' approach at first.

Goal is to sell the boat and resumable disentangle marital assets. Both parties need to be reasonable. On reflection, sounds like the OP is just getting familiar with the deal - perhaps she'll get more comfortable with it once she understands it better. If either her ex is the brokerage(s) were acting in bad faith, well, a lawyer may be appropriate but my sense is she's figuring out the deal right now.

BTW - depending on the age of the boat, type of boat, and represented condition, asking for full replacement of batteries may be unreasonable, especially if the batteries are serviceable but end of life. You're selling a used boat. Not usually reasonable to expect new replacement items. 50/50 split between buyer and seller is a typical resolution.

Petrr

You are exactly right, I am playing catch up at the moment.

All other items, besides batteries, on the survey were addressed including rewiring ALL AC power on the vessel.

The batteries, don’t get me started on the batteries. LOL

The batteries are quite old, they were fine until the boat was pulled out of the water. At that time it was plugged into a 15 amp outlet as 30 amp was not available above the high water mark. There were several outlets on that circuit, and at some point one of the boats tripped the breaker. Given that there was a lead acid starting battery and an AGM(4) house bank, the weaker of the 2 types took them all down and it was a wrap on 5 of the 6 batteries. Granted, given there age they didn’t owe us a penny. Thankfully, the genset battery was brand new, not hooked into the house bank or the starting battery, so it was still ok.

 

[Bmarler]

Personally, I’d rather do the batteries myself if I were the buyer. Then I can choose what I want to put in.
The seller just needs to concede the discount for that, if any.

 

[Bacchus]

Once the issues have been resolved I’ll be more than happy to add that info and the brokers info. Until then I don’t need to cause further issues by the potential buyer possibly seeing this thread.

Asking price was 20% and change below market and now we are $20k below asking.

EXACTLY! - Your inquiry is not about what's a fair price - it is all about the legalities of dealing with broker, co-owner, ex, and the inherent complications of dealing with all parties during the complex process of negotiating & completing the sale.

I'll guess the arm chair advisors will quickly comment about the price and whether to take the offer and run or just run - all without even seeing the boat.

Now that you are back in town just get the parties together and make your position(s) known and the fact that you will sign over title only when your conditions / contingencies are met and you have the $ in hand or in your acct- or you agree otherwise. Your posts sounds to me like you have your act together and not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Your boat - your option to negotiate $. The oversights to date may actually been simply misunderstandings and not malicious. Only you can judge that. No need to over react and get lawyer involved if your assessment after honest communication is things are back on track.

A buyer using any deficiency found to attempt negotiating a lower price is not a crime. I was in a similar situation when purchasing mine 10 yrs ago. That a few other things got negotiated and ironed out.

I would get and hold the USCG Doc original to prevent any further "monkey business"
Sorry - couldn't resist - and yes I'm waiting for RTF to chime in with a picture

Good luck with the negotiations and sale

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Don't worry about the price of the boat. You are lucky to sell at all this time of year and in this market. SELL IT! Buy the batteries, what is another $500?

Now... worry about getting your half from the Ex.

Good Luck,

pete

 

[ofer]

divorces are brutal specially when they involve sell of assets. most think divorce reduces their net worth by half. reality says its twice that.

 

[kthoennes]

Boy, if I'm a buyer and the sellers are squabbling (disagreeing, not in sync, whatever you want to call it) and the deal is getting messy, and worse, if one of them lawyers up for any reason (assuming I learn that detail as the buyer), I'd run away as fast as I can. I don't care how good a deal it might be, who needs that potential hassle in life? Just my gut reaction to maybe appreciate a buyer's perspective on all this.

I remember years ago we made an offer on a Larson 310. Probably a much smaller deal I know, but it was a lot of money to us at the time. Even paid for a mechanical survey, but then we started getting signals the owner really didn't want to sell, something started to feel messy or "off." Eventually we hit a wall over the hydraulic lifts on the inboard/outboards, like a $500 or $700 item on a $50,000 deal and we walked away. Nope, see you later. Unless you just resurrected Joshua Slocum's Spray from the briny depths of the Atlantic and had it restored at IYRS in Newport, why buy yourself a headache? Probably not too helpful to the OP, but one buyer's perspective FWIW.

 

[ksanders]

your divorce is not final until all property settlement issues are resolved.

This is an issue for your divorce attorney.

 

[petro]

I don’t know a bout a rare gem, but yes it is a rare, extremely sought after boat with only 1 other on the market and that boat is landlocked in Canada! The listing has that boat in similar condition and with comparable add-ons, $25k ABOVE our original asking price, so ours was priced to sell to begin with and now it is being given away at $45k below comps!

Not saying your asking price is out of whack since you haven't listed the details of the boat or your price, but just keep in mind your comps won't be at all accurate. Boats in Canada are ALWAYS more expensive than the same boat would be in the US due to a variety of factors. Just because your boat is listed for less than the only other one on the market up in Canada, doesn't mean you're "priced to sell". $20k below asking price is a lot if the asking price was $50k, if you're asking $500k, then that's not bad at all.

 

[Seevee]

your divorce is not final until all property settlement issues are resolved.

This is an issue for your divorce attorney.

Totally agree, assume this was marital property, which if you owned it while married, most likely (most states). Yes, looks like your option is to go back to divorce court, or just settle it best as you can and take a slight loss, if needed.

$20K is not enough to worry about. Make it up on your next deal.

 

[Benthic2]

This is an issue for your divorce attorney.

If the couple gets along there may not be a divorce attorney involved.

 

[ksanders]

If the couple gets along there may not be a divorce attorney involved.

That could be one of the most unwise decisions a person could make in their lifetime.

Anybody wether they get along or not should know their legal rights and options so that they can close their time together in a fair and equitable fashion for both parties.

 

[MonkeySea]

EXACTLY! - Your inquiry is not about what's a fair price - it is all about the legalities of dealing with broker, co-owner, ex, and the inherent complications of dealing with all parties during the complex process of negotiating & completing the sale.

I'll guess the arm chair advisors will quickly comment about the price and whether to take the offer and run or just run - all without even seeing the boat.

Now that you are back in town just get the parties together and make your position(s) known and the fact that you will sign over title only when your conditions / contingencies are met and you have the $ in hand or in your acct- or you agree otherwise. Your posts sounds to me like you have your act together and not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Your boat - your option to negotiate $. The oversights to date may actually been simply misunderstandings and not malicious. Only you can judge that. No need to over react and get lawyer involved if your assessment after honest communication is things are back on track.

A buyer using any deficiency found to attempt negotiating a lower price is not a crime. I was in a similar situation when purchasing mine 10 yrs ago. That a few other things got negotiated and ironed out.

I would get and hold the USCG Doc original to prevent any further "monkey business"
Sorry - couldn't resist - and yes I'm waiting for RTF to chime in with a picture

Good luck with the negotiations and sale

I am in possession of the USCG documentation, all they have is a photo of it that was sent to them by me before the P&S agreement was written and I assumed was for that purpose that they asked for it. No more assuming.

 

[MonkeySea]

Negotiations are moving, slowly but at least they are moving. My ex and I both agree they know at this point we kind of have them over a barrel at this point. The sale at this point is illegal.

The buyers broker is now aware of the agreed upon 5% commission and is attempting to negotiate a higher commission.

The ex has assumed responsibility for the batteries. So it is up the buyers broker at this point to step up or get off the pot.

 

[BruceK]

What a mess. As BS often baffles brains and you seem to have a handle on where it`s going I won`t even try to analyze the issues. But a lot turns on the degree of authority, actual or ostensible, between you and your ex.

 

[SteveK]

28 posts and we do not have the benefit of knowing the type of boat, the year, a link to the listing etc.
What $20K means to a $100K boat, is 20%
what $20K means to a $200K boat is 10%

The boat is titled, you are the main owner, OK, is there a % involved there? Like 60/40 split on sale.

**** or get off the pot comes to mind. If your signature was needed on the sale documents then that is your out, show the buyer your sig and say I do not approve of the sale.

 

[MonkeySea]

28 posts and we do not have the benefit of knowing the type of boat, the year, a link to the listing etc.
What $20K means to a $100K boat, is 20%
what $20K means to a $200K boat is 10%

The boat is titled, you are the main owner, OK, is there a % involved there? Like 60/40 split on sale.

**** or get off the pot comes to mind. If your signature was needed on the sale documents then that is your out, show the buyer your sig and say I do not approve of the sale.

Every time I post there is a hint as to what the boat is.

There are only 2 of these available for sale at the moment, and only one is in the US. it wouldn’t take anything for the buyer to come across this thread if I put out that kind of info. I’m sneaky, not stupid!

The boat is documented, not titled, thank god, as a title would make it easier for me to get screwed over on the deal. In my state all that is needed to sell and title a boat is a bill of sale that doesn’t even have to be notary stamped. Being documented makes it much more difficult and a lot scarier too, as the coast guard is pretty famous for FAFO.