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Old 01-30-2018, 05:15 AM   #1
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Should I Use Anti Seize On Turbo Bolts?

I am replacing my exhaust mixing elbow as a PM on my 2002 Cummins 330hp. I soaked the four bolts with penetrating oil for three days and they did break loose. So On reassembly I am thinking of using nickel anti seize on the four exhaust side bolts. Is this a good idea?
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Old 01-30-2018, 05:42 AM   #2
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I am replacing my exhaust mixing elbow as a PM on my 2002 Cummins 330hp. I soaked the four bolts with penetrating oil for three days and they did break loose. So On reassembly I am thinking of using nickel anti seize on the four exhaust side bolts. Is this a good idea?
Loc tite makes several high temperature anti seize products, one with nickel I've seen used is #771.
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:38 AM   #3
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I use a anti seize compound on anything exposed to high temps, water, or when threads may corrode. Usually copper or nickel based, but don't really see a difference. I follow manufacturers recommendation if known.
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Old 01-31-2018, 06:55 AM   #4
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I use anti-seize on pretty much everything except special bolts (like head bolts) which I treat exactly by the book. One thing to keep in mind with bolts that need to be torqued to a specific number is you need to use the part of the torque table for "lubricated threads".

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Old 01-31-2018, 10:10 AM   #5
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I'm with Ken on this one. Anti-seize on everything. Next owner will thank me.
If the original bolt was a grade 2 I replace it with a grade 5.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:26 AM   #6
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To the original poster. If you use anti-seize, do not use copper, use nickel, with a high solids content. Loctite 771 or JetLube Nikal would be my recommendation.

There are some newer metal free calcium fluoride compounds out there, but I have no experience with them.

We stick with the two nickel based ones I mentioned above because tests prove that the torque coefficient remains the same after 24 hours, alowing us to hot torque the fasteners again when at operating temperatures.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:48 AM   #7
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I'm with Ken on this one. Anti-seize on everything. Next owner will thank me.
If the original bolt was a grade 2 I replace it with a grade 5.
That only works if you take advantage of the higher tensile strength afforded by the upgrade. You may actually be decreasing the clamping force provided unless you are increasing the torque to ensure proper preload.

A SAE grade 5 bolt has over one and a half times the tensile strength as a grade 2. A grade 8 has twice the tensile strength.

So generally speaking, increasing the bolt strength, and the preload is a good thing. Most of the bolts on a boat are non-critical. But if you find yourself reaching for a torque wrench on a more controlled joint assembly, (like an engine) it is probably best to use the manufacturers recommended studs, nuts, and bolts and the torque spec provided.
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Old 01-31-2018, 12:02 PM   #8
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Cummins Workshop Manual.
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Old 01-31-2018, 01:53 PM   #9
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This may sound strange but in the days of working on large reciprocating engines we used Milk of Magnesia on all bolts on hot exhaust related parts. From my experience most never-seize compounds dry out and cause additional seizure during removal events. Cheap also.
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:17 PM   #10
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This may sound strange but in the days of working on large reciprocating engines we used Milk of Magnesia on all bolts on hot exhaust related parts. From my experience most never-seize compounds dry out and cause additional seizure during removal events. Cheap also.
Milk of Magnesia is definitely an old school anti-seize that works. Particularly good for stainless to stainless to prevent galling.

All anti-seize dries out. It's a colloidal mix that leaves a coating of graphite, copper, or nickel (or magnesium).

The difference is in the torque coefficient or nut factor (k). In the commercially prepared anti-seize it is known and required torque can be calculated accurately for tensile preload.

EDIT I just checked my reference material for milk of magnesia testing. Unfortunately, the results on break out torque are pretty dismal. Warren Brown (The modern guru of fasteners and joints) tested it and presented a paper on it to ASME in 2006.

Interesting that it is one of the series of papers that led to our use of Loctite 771 and JetLube Nikal. Warren Brown wrote our bolted joints manual and is a member of several ASME committees on flanges and bolted joints.
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:25 PM   #11
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Spy: I just looked at my can of neverseez and it contains 7-13% copper as per the MSD. Why do you not use copper containing products?
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:39 PM   #12
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Spy: I just looked at my can of neverseez and it contains 7-13% copper as per the MSD. Why do you not use copper containing products?
Molybdenum and copper based anti-seize have a lower break out torque for disassembly for low temperature assembly low; so it's actually better!

At high temperatures copper didn't fare well. Even at temperatures lower than the ratings.

Most of the assemblies we work with require the higher temperature requirement of nickel.
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Old 01-31-2018, 03:51 PM   #13
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Molybdenum and copper based anti-seize have a lower break out torque for disassembly for low temperature assembly low; so it's actually better!

At high temperatures copper didn't fare well. Even at temperatures lower than the ratings.

Most of the assemblies we work with require the higher temperature requirement of nickel.
Thanks. I never realized there were so many different types of anti-seize for various applications. This is a good thread.
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:02 PM   #14
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I should be honest in saying that anti-seize doesn't always work. We still have to cut off a certain percentage of the studs and nuts. SAY 5-10%

Much of the benefit is gained by using it as a lubricant in order to torque and re-torque when hot.

I'm working on my ASME Qualified Bolting Specialist currently. One of the largest maintenance cost savings to date has been increasing our bolted joint integrity on site.
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Old 01-31-2018, 04:04 PM   #15
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Greetings,
Mr. LM. "...anti-seize...thread." Good one.

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Old 01-31-2018, 08:31 PM   #16
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My anti-sieze, which I have started using when I have stainless fasteners in aluminium, contains aluminum. Haven't had it long enough to give results yet, but crevice corrosion and galling are a big issue for me.
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Old 01-31-2018, 09:52 PM   #17
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The mixer bolts on that Cummins screw into a water jacketed turbo. They don't get that hot. But the slots leave the thread gaps exposed so it is good to put something like grease or antiseize on them. I just use a touch of grease.

Ground off and extracted a good number of those. Yuk.
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:23 PM   #18
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The mixer bolts on that Cummins screw into a water jacketed turbo. They don't get that hot. But the slots leave the thread gaps exposed so it is good to put something like grease or antiseize on them. I just use a touch of grease.

Ground off and extracted a good number of those. Yuk.
And there you have it. As usual RTFM.

Real world experience is hard to beat. Thanks Ski!
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:48 AM   #19
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I just finished some research on this. The discharge temperatures of your turbo can reach 1900 degrees. The ONLY anti seize that can withstand those temperatures is NICKEL.
Like Permatex #77134.
Copper burns up at 1800 degrees.
Aluminum burns up at 1600 degrees.
FYI
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:09 AM   #20
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The turbine out temp on a 6B 330 will NOT reach 1900F.

And the bolts screw into a water jacket. Not exposed to exhaust gas temp. Threads might hit 250F, bolt head a little hotter depending on mixer design.
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