Nordhavn runs aground Ocean Reef

[OldDan1943]

OD that what Bob says in waterway guide and it’s sometimes true but have also found shoals in other sections so watching the depth is important even when in a canal far from inlets.

You are correct. Always vigilant and situation awareness.

 

[Hippocampus]

Local knowledge is a wonderful thing. So knowing where to be particularly vigilant helps. Wonder if the owner/operator of the Nordie got into trouble due to its absence. Others are familiar with this body of water which I’m not. Interested in their opinions.

 

[OldDan1943]

Local knowledge is a wonderful thing. So knowing where to be particularly vigilant helps. Wonder if the owner/operator of the Nordie got into trouble due to its absence. Others are familiar with this body of water which I’m not. Interested in their opinions.

Hmmmm, local knowledge?
In days of old, buoys were move with the intention of grounding the boats with the intent of stealing the cargo.

 

[hollywood8118]

So with all the guessing, speculation, lambasting of the owner does anybody know what ACTUALLY happened?
Mistakes happen, if you have not made an error in judgement in your boating past you probably have not gone far.
I am more interested in if it was a mechanical problem and the damage to the boat.
Hollywood

 

[backinblue]

Mistakes, I've made a few..... F. Sinatra

 

[sunchaser]

Hollywood
Agreed. Lots of arm chairing from the expected corners.

 

[OldDan1943]

Hipp, Haul Over in Fl ….. ocean side pretty well marked, inside the bridge, look out for the delta. Rocks Stbd side of the delta and rocks outboard port side on the other side of the delta.
BIG boats often use Haul Over but never watched how close they get to the rocks.

 

[psneeld]

Hipp, Haul Over in Fl ….. ocean side pretty well marked, inside the bridge, look out for the delta. Rocks Stbd side of the delta and rocks outboard port side on the other side of the delta.
BIG boats often use Haul Over but never watched how close they get to the rocks.

I thought the discussion was about Ocean Reef on Key Largo, not Haulover Inlet????

 

[OldDan1943]

I thought the discussion was about Ocean Reef on Key Largo, not Haulover Inlet????

Any cut may very well have a delta.

 

[twistedtree]

So with all the guessing, speculation, lambasting of the owner does anybody know what ACTUALLY happened?
Mistakes happen, if you have not made an error in judgement in your boating past you probably have not gone far.
I am more interested in if it was a mechanical problem and the damage to the boat.
Hollywood

Oh stop it. Let's not let actual information get in the way

 

[OldDan1943]

$4oo lawyer fees and all he actually said, if you boil down his answer is “Not sure”
LOL

 

[backinblue]

Unless someone hears differently like a malfunction of some sort, I'd just assume it's an accidental grounding. It happens. Not the first or last. There's not always a good reason for it.

 

[Blissboat]

No one posting to this thread so far, including me, knows what led that Nordie to its embarrassing position. Like everyone, I'd be interested to know if only for the sake of learning something new or re-learning something forgotten.

One unforgettable lesson learned in my earlier boating years was that anyone who engages the autopilot in narrow / confined waters is tempting fate. Suffice to say, I narrowly avoided T-boning a channel marker that loomed out of the darkness by leaping to the helm, snatching the AP out of gear, wrenching the helm hard aport, than S-curving my way, at the last possible nanosecond, around the immovable I-beam holding up a red day-board. The damage to my ego abated soon because I was the only one aboard (the very reason I engaged the AP in the first place), so my idiocy went unwitnessed. But even now, 40+ years later, just thinking about that impossibly close call produces another rush of adrenaline.

Call me a dinosaur if you want, but using an autopilot in anything but wide open waters? Nuh-uh. Don't even think about it.

 

[backinblue]

Call me a dinosaur if you want, but using an autopilot in anything but wide open waters? Nuh-uh. Don't even think about it.

I agree. If you have to make a quick and sudden change, I'd rather not worry about disengaging the a/p first even if it's quick to do. Maybe some can over-power the a/p with manual steering, but again, something I'd rather not deal with in an "emergency".

Supposedly we all enjoy piloting our boats. Why not manual steer for a few minutes in tight conditions? What's the future, just become a passenger and let AI do all the driving like self-driving cars? To me, that takes a lot of the enjoyment out of boating. On the open water with miles to go, a/p makes perfect sense and is superior than humans.

 

[psneeld]

Tools and the skills to use them vary to a great extent.

As one gains those skills, opportunities to use tools to a greater and greater extent.

The biggest trick is to match the two accordingly.

Actually....prudent use of autopilot can make one a much safer skipper. It allows concentration normally devoted to steering to other important duties like nav and hazard detection. Learning to use and manage an autopilot safely is in ones best interest.

 

[backinblue]

True but there's also something rewarding to a craftsman that can do things by hand even if there are tools available that a less skilled person may achieve a similar result with.

 

[psneeld]

True but there's also something rewarding to a craftsman that can do things by hand even if there are tools available that a less skilled person may achieve a similar result with.

Sorry, but after decades of being both an instructor skipper and pilot, the true "professional" leaves the meanial task of steering to others or autopilot. There are way more important things to concentrate on.

Weekend boaters.... sure...they get a kick out of steering..

If you want to discuss skills when boating, stick to the thruster discussions and even there the real pros admit they use them when "safely" docking other peoples boats.

 

[mvweebles]

Call me a dinosaur if you want, but using an autopilot in anything but wide open waters? Nuh-uh. Don't even think about it.

I disagree. Many, many boats steer more reliably and predictably with an autopilot. This of course assumes quality equipment that has been properly installed and calibrated for the conditions. As mentioned above, at the extreme, a planing boat trying to operate at slow speed by autopilot is not going to respond properly so hand steer or twin-engine steer may the right answe. Plus, in narrow channels, helmsman has many queues to pay attention to - Autopilot allows the helmsman to focus on the situation.

There are many instances where a hand-steered boat inadvertantly crabbed out of the channel and went aground, sometimes hard. You have to pay attention to the ATONs ahead and behind to verify location within thr channel. A properly functioning autopilot on NAV tracking XTE has no such error factor.

Peter

 

[Blissboat]

Sorry, but after decades of being both an instructor skipper and pilot, the true "professional" leaves the meanial task of steering to others or autopilot. There are way more important things to concentrate on.

Weekend boaters.... sure...they get a kick out of steering..

If you want to discuss skills when boating, stick to the thruster discussions and even there the real pros admit they use them when "safely" docking other peoples boats.

Is that supposed to be some kind of joke? If not, that's astonishingly arrogant and insulting.

Please forgive me for taking up space on the same forum with one possessing your staggering level of wisdom and expertise.

 

[psneeld]

Is that supposed to be some kind of joke? If not, that's astonishingly arrogant and insulting.

Please forgive me for taking up space on the same forum with one possessing your staggering level of wisdom and expertise.

Just passing along many years of being taught what to teach others.

What you quoted wasn't meant for you specifically, it was the comments about "craftsman".

Also as was posted before, autopilot systems on large craft, such as large commercial vessels, is a completely different scenario and functioning than on out smaller rec boats.

Not being arrogant, just again what I was taught ad what I saw and experienced when in some very scary situations.

Struggling to manage steering when the real talent aboard should be concentrating on other things is bad "crew" "tool" management.

Here's one of the most basic explanations of airline procedures....

"With the autopilot active, the pilot can focus on other important flying tasks, such as navigation, communication, and weather analysis and avoidance. The autopilot also gives a much smoother ride to the passengers as it reacts faster to disturbances than a human pilot. It corrects the trajectory of an aircraft with fewer oscillations."

https://simpleflying.com/autopilot-...ectory of an aircraft with fewer oscillations.

The above is true for vessels as well as aircraft. On must military ships, and I think many commercial vessels....the officer of the deck is not the helmsman. That's for a very good reason.

 

[rslifkin]

I agree with psneeld and weebles on this one. When workload gets high, not needing to steer can be a big benefit. Accounting for set and drift in a narrow channel while hand steering also takes some practice and experience. And if you don't do it often, you're likely to require a lot more concentration to do it.

That said, ease of hand steering varies between boats. Some are a bit of work, while others (mine included) are very easy and pleasant to hand steer if the sea state is reasonably calm.

 

[OldDan1943]

I guess I need more practice hand steering in a ‘narrow’ channel.

 

[Hippocampus]

Worthwhile to read attainable adventures articles about APs. Many of us don’t fully understand how they work and how to tune them to get the most out of them. I’ve been using them for 95+% of my steering for over three decades and learned stuff from that review. Basically our APs are pretty dumb compared to the latest generation of high tech APs. I didn’t fully grasp this until being exposed to the upper echelon of NKEs and the like. Still APs steer better than humans. Biggest difference between run of the mill APs and high tech is the high tech is able to predict the future. It’s constantly learning the behavior of the waves and wind so can predict what rudder input to give and how much better than a human. Contrary to my prior belief does a better job than hand steering in heavy weather or surfing than a human and much faster. But my AP is dumb not with a $20k brain unit and 30 to 40k total parts cost. Perhaps maybe some of the large Nordie or KK owners can post their experience in weather with high tech units. I have no experience of them with power.
So there’s no question I run my boat 95% of the time underway. The admiral spells me for pee breaks and the like. Running a narrow channel I believe I’m safer with the AP steering and me with a hand next to standby and the turning knob fine tuning the course. I’m on standby for close encounters as I don’t know what the other vessel will do. Too many don’t follow colregs. I also sometimes go to standby if there’s a lot of pots or debris or very frequent turns in skinny water. But the overwhelming amount of time the AP is on.
Have been on a fair amount on other peoples boats. They do the same. Some with joy sticks making it easier to dodge even more. Totally agree with Peter and PSN. Understand what’s on your boat and use it to its safe capabilities.

 

[rslifkin]

On the rough weather case, even if the helmsman can out steer the AP, it's likely for only a few minutes before the helmsman starts to get tired from constantly swinging the wheel around, at which point their performance will decline.

 

[psneeld]

After decades of driving boats under someone else's rules and desires....when I got to recreational powerboat fulltime... I pretty much chose every option to enjoy it at all costs.

If something was going to be, or was already known to be, or even hinted at being hard....I figured out a better plan.

In many years and many miles of snow birding, avoiding weather where an even Neanderthal autopilot couldn't handle it was maybe just a couple days/passages out of years and years.

If boating is hard, complicated, scary, stressful, demanding and requires too much concentration..... I would submit that one looks for ways to reduce all those.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I agree with the posters who use the AP as much as they possibly can including narrow channels and following seas in heavy weather. As has been said it frees me up to manage more important tasks and generally does a better job steering than I will. It is critically important to understand how your entire steering system works not just the AP and what to do in the event of a failure.

Used properly and well understood the AP is one of the greatest tools we have for making navigation, piloting and vessel handling safe and stress free.

I can think of limited scenarios where I will favor hand steering. Running through a dense field of crab or lobster pots is one. Another is approaching a bridge opening where I must make a turn immediately before and after the opening especially when running down current. A bridge is a good example of understanding your system. If your heading sensor is magnetic based i.e. fluxgate then the bridge can affect the sensor causing sudden course changes.

 

[twistedtree]

Worthwhile to read attainable adventures articles about APs. Many of us don’t fully understand how they work and how to tune them to get the most out of them. I’ve been using them for 95+% of my steering for over three decades and learned stuff from that review. Basically our APs are pretty dumb compared to the latest generation of high tech APs. I didn’t fully grasp this until being exposed to the upper echelon of NKEs and the like. Still APs steer better than humans. Biggest difference between run of the mill APs and high tech is the high tech is able to predict the future. It’s constantly learning the behavior of the waves and wind so can predict what rudder input to give and how much better than a human. Contrary to my prior belief does a better job than hand steering in heavy weather or surfing than a human and much faster. But my AP is dumb not with a $20k brain unit and 30 to 40k total parts cost. Perhaps maybe some of the large Nordie or KK owners can post their experience in weather with high tech units. I have no experience of them with power.
So there’s no question I run my boat 95% of the time underway. The admiral spells me for pee breaks and the like. Running a narrow channel I believe I’m safer with the AP steering and me with a hand next to standby and the turning knob fine tuning the course. I’m on standby for close encounters as I don’t know what the other vessel will do. Too many don’t follow colregs. I also sometimes go to standby if there’s a lot of pots or debris or very frequent turns in skinny water. But the overwhelming amount of time the AP is on.
Have been on a fair amount on other peoples boats. They do the same. Some with joy sticks making it easier to dodge even more. Totally agree with Peter and PSN. Understand what’s on your boat and use it to its safe capabilities.

I’m not sure what qualifies as an “advanced” AP. For the pilots I’m familiar with, the internal algorithms are opaque, so I can only observe how they behave.

The biggest difference I have seen in Pilot performance is around the type of boat that it’s steering. Steering a boat with outboards is different from steering a planing hull on plane, and very different from steering a planing boat at low speed, and different from steering a 30-50 displacement boat, and different from steering a 100 ton “fat boat”. I don’t envy designers needed to cover all these variations.

I guess the most “advance” pilot I have used is the Simrad AP80 that I am currently using for testing. It’s designed for big boats, and I have to say does really good job. But I don’t see any indication that it is steering in any anticipatory way. You mention NKE, and I have no experience with them, though I know that steering to wind would be yet again different from what I listed above, and I know some pilots do that.

 

[twistedtree]

While we are talking about AP vs manual steering, I’ll offer another data point.

On my boat, “manual” steering means activating one of the follow up steering controls, and “manually” steering the boat. That’s how I do all maneuvering and navigation of tight quarters. Everything else is done in AP Auto or Nav/track mode. But the FU control works through the AP, using the AP steering pump. Backup is a second AP and steering pump, so completely redundant. And third backup is the helm wheel that turns its own steering pump. And fourth backup is an emergency tiller.

I think 90% or more of AP misbehavior is due to two preventable things.

First is the use of a magnetic rate or fluxgate compass. These are impacted by things in the boat that can vary at unexpected times, and impacted by passing structures like bridges, and even other boats. Switching to a sat compass solves this whole class of problems, and you can keep the rate compass as a backup.

The second is inconsistent and unpredictable data source selection, aka selecting which GPS and compass info the AP is using, and making sure that doesn’t change at unexpected times. This is totally dependent on the electronics installation, and the configuration of the equipment.

One of the AP components can certainly fail, but I think that’s a small percentage of the issues people encounter.

 

[porman]

A quick note. I just installed a Garmin AP on a friends' boat. It has a feature called Shadow Drive that disconnects the AP instantly when the steering wheel is moved. Great for up here in the PNW where there is a lot of debris in the water.

 

[Seevee]

Just passing along many years of being taught what to teach others.

What you quoted wasn't meant for you specifically, it was the comments about "craftsman".

Also as was posted before, autopilot systems on large craft, such as large commercial vessels, is a completely different scenario and functioning than on out smaller rec boats.

Not being arrogant, just again what I was taught ad what I saw and experienced when in some very scary situations.

Struggling to manage steering when the real talent aboard should be concentrating on other things is bad "crew" "tool" management.

Here's one of the most basic explanations of airline procedures....

"With the autopilot active, the pilot can focus on other important flying tasks, such as navigation, communication, and weather analysis and avoidance. The autopilot also gives a much smoother ride to the passengers as it reacts faster to disturbances than a human pilot. It corrects the trajectory of an aircraft with fewer oscillations."

https://simpleflying.com/autopilot-...ectory of an aircraft with fewer oscillations.

The above is true for vessels as well as aircraft. On must military ships, and I think many commercial vessels....the officer of the deck is not the helmsman. That's for a very good reason.

Wholeheartedly agree. The AP is a great tool and very useful at times.


You mention aviation, in some cases/aircraft, the AP is required equipment and will out perform the pilot.



Could also argue to use the AP as required or needed, and that could be narrow channels. Sure, one needs to know their AP capabilities and limitations. I've had better luck with my Simrad than my current Garmin equipment but suspect after using my Garmin more and more and tweaking it, I'll feel more comfortable with it.

For flying, I wouldn't be without an autopilot.